Liberals, why do you believe people are entitled to the work of others?

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Jan Volkes

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History repeats itself. That is the same mentality that sent many back, while the adventurous pressed on. Europe settling into their consolation, is indeed romantic...I love it too, but it is not the way of progress. They exist on the coattails of progress, and order more wine. Not so bad, really. But then, what would the world do without a head?
America is standing still while The rest of the world moves ahead, the US used to be all about innovation now it's copying the rest of the world, the biggest and the best once came from the US but not any more, the US has the biggest of the bad things and the smallest of the good things, bad list US at the top, good list US at the bottom.
 
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ScottA

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"Gleaning". The word you are looking for is "gleaning".
Very good, thank you! Unless, of course, you are reaching for the stars. But that wouldn't be fair to do in a welfare state, would it? Never mind.
That doesn't explain why you think I am worse off than you. I see it the other way, I am way better off than you. So can you please explain simply and directly how I am worse off? How is Canada 100 years behind you socially? And Americans don't live in little apartments? Americans don't work in cubicles? Americans don't use public services? Americans don't wait in line (waiting at the DMV is pretty much the quintessential trope regarding that)?
Pardon my use of metaphors. You do indeed have it good, even more desirable. What I was eluding to is a sad reality of human social activity: We tend to follow. For many decades now, the world has followed the American revolution into their own revolutions and cut out for themselves the parts that work for their own piece of the world puzzle. Even the East now follows the West. It's true. BUT, in such a follow-the-leader precession...there can be only one head.

So, while we suffer from our growing pains and the stresses of progress, you all are kicking back a little more than we are. We like that about you. And of course you like our rockets to the moon, our Disney movies, and our junk food (sometimes).

But that, all of which is good, leaves us envious...which is not good, nor is it really that we want to actually be the other. But it DOES give the complainers who have forgotten their roots in the identity and place in the world...something to throw in the face of those who have not forgotten. Unfortunately it usually takes some disaster for the forgetful to remember and get back on board.

Meanwhile, we watch Fox News...and dream of the good ol' days. And of course, go on vacation to get away from who we are really. And there's always facebook too.
 
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Hetta

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Their social structure is roughly about a 100 years behind us, with a few little technical things mixed in which makes it seem otherwise. They live in little apartments, work in cubicles, use public everything, and wait in lines, not for simple pleasures heaven forbid, but only for the serious things in life. Life moves at a slower pace.

That is not to say there is not something good in all that...because there is, and we could learn a lot from them. But the comparison is not apples and apples, by far. Again, I would suggest gleaming the best of both, throwing out a lot of American waste, and slowing the pace down to something more sane. But, there is a down side to their way too, and traveling there (even regularly) is not an accurate gauge. And of course they talk up their way, just like a majority of us talk up our way. But there is a reason ALL other countries follow the American commerce model, come to our schools, and relocate for jobs, etc. ...because it ain't all that over there. The grass ain't really greener.

But the real answer about those countries, and to best answer your question...is because they are only doing part of what it takes to exist in the world. They look good, because they have selected just the things that are most appealing, while the complete village is made up of other less attractive and productive countries, that would have to be combined with them to make a fair comparison with the US. They are mere bedroom communities by comparison. There are some big pieces missing. Meanwhile, they think we all live in Hollywood (or Texas :) ).
Have you actually ever been to Europe? Or anywhere outside of the US?

I am French by birth, spent 20 years in my home country, then another 20 traveling around the world, settling in the US at about age 40, I guess. In about 3 years time, we will pack up and return to France because the quality of life is better there. Have you noticed I type in English? That's because most of us are at a minimum bilingual, and many of us are multilingual. I am frequently horrified about the awful spelling and grammar of Americans for whom English is their first language.

About the same percentage of "Europeans" - bearing in mind how many different cultures and countries are encompassed by that label - live in apartments as do Americans. In my city, new apartment blocks are constantly being built, and constantly being filled. In the majority of offices I have visited or worked at, the majority of workers work in cubicles. Use "public everything"? What does that mean? Public transport? People in America mainly don't use public transport because it is rubbish. It is underfunded, poorly maintained, dirty and takes too long. In European countries, it is the opposite, so yes, people leave their car at home and take the train or the bus. I cannot wait to live in that environment again where walking - yes, using the legs - is the province not only of poor people (nobody in my city walks unless they are too poor to drive a car) but absolutely normal. Where vast areas of the city center are pedestrianized so that people can walk from area to area without the fear of being run down.

As for a slower pace. LOL. Have you been to Paris? Rome? Florence? Brussels? London? .... I could go on.

It's extremely patronising - but 'muricans, what can I expect - to talk down about other countries that a person has never personally visited, and doesn't truly know anything about.
 
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ScottA

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America is standing still while The rest of the world moves ahead, the US used to be all about innovation now it's copying the rest of the world, the biggest and the best once came from the US but not any more, the US has the biggest of the bad things and the smallest of the good things, bad list US at the top, good list US at the bottom.
Yes, that is what happens when one puts their head where the sun don't shine. The trend is to be different to the point of not being what we once were.
 
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ScottA

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Have you actually ever been to Europe? Or anywhere outside of the US?

I am French by birth, spent 20 years in my home country, then another 20 traveling around the world, settling in the US at about age 40, I guess. In about 3 years time, we will pack up and return to France because the quality of life is better there. Have you noticed I type in English? That's because most of us are at a minimum bilingual, and many of us are multilingual. I am frequently horrified about the awful spelling and grammar of Americans for whom English is their first language.

About the same percentage of "Europeans" - bearing in mind how many different cultures and countries are encompassed by that label - live in apartments as do Americans. In my city, new apartment blocks are constantly being built, and constantly being filled. In the majority of offices I have visited or worked at, the majority of workers work in cubicles. Use "public everything"? What does that mean? Public transport? People in America mainly don't use public transport because it is rubbish. It is underfunded, poorly maintained, dirty and takes too long. In European countries, it is the opposite, so yes, people leave their car at home and take the train or the bus. I cannot wait to live in that environment again where walking - yes, using the legs - is the province not only of poor people (nobody in my city walks unless they are too poor to drive a car) but absolutely normal. Where vast areas of the city center are pedestrianized so that people can walk from area to area without the fear of being run down.

As for a slower pace. LOL. Have you been to Paris? Rome? Florence? Brussels? London? .... I could go on.

It's extremely patronising - but 'muricans, what can I expect - to talk down about other countries that a person has never personally visited, and doesn't truly know anything about.
Indeed. I HAVE been. But my point was not to criticize, but to compare apples to apples, and to remind people of there good and rightful place in the world. We Americans have lost our way, but we have no business being France or whomever. Instead of trying to be what makes everyone else great, we would do well to remember what makes US great. We WERE the most envied, why would we want to be someone else? And this I say, not out of arrogance, but because the world once attested to it.

We have a choice to make: copy the runners up, or wake up to who we really are.
 
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Skaloop

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Very good, thank you! Unless, of course, you are reaching for the stars. But that wouldn't be fair to do in a welfare state, would it? Never mind.
Pardon my use of metaphors. You do indeed have it good, even more desirable. What I was eluding to is a sad reality of human social activity: We tend to follow.

alluding*
 
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KimT

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Indeed. I HAVE been. But my point was not to criticize, but to compare apples to apples, and to remind people of there good and rightful place in the world. We Americans have lost our way, but we have no business being France or whomever. Instead of trying to be what makes everyone else great, we would do well to remember what makes US great. We WERE the most envied, why would we want to be someone else? And this I say, not out of arrogance, but because the world once attested to it.

We have a choice to make: copy the runners up, or wake up to who we really are.

We shouldn't strive to be the most envied. That is a world view. We should stive to be the most compassionate, the most righteous, the most honest, and the most generous. Sort of like Jesus wants us to be.
 
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Skaloop

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We shouldn't strive to be the most envied. That is a world view. We should stive to be the most compassionate, the most righteous, the most honest, and the most generous. Sort of like Jesus wants us to be.

Not only that, but really, most of the first world doesn't envy the USA at all.

Remember that scene near the end of The Breakfast Club, where they are discussing whether they would talk to each other in front of their friends? And Brian (the brain) says that he would talk to any one of them. Then Claire (the princess) says that of course he would, his friends look up to her friends. And he says how conceited she is. That's America, to me. America can be really cool, and I will gladly partake of its offerings, but I don't envy America or Americans at all. It's conceit to think that America is the bestest (or ever was the bestest).
 
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Hetta

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We shouldn't strive to be the most envied. That is a world view. We should stive to be the most compassionate, the most righteous, the most honest, and the most generous. Sort of like Jesus wants us to be.
Wouldn't that be great? And yet there is only disgust and hatred shown towards the poor.
 
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ScottA

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The "BIG drop" represents a reduction in poverty (i.e. more people above the poverty line).

Your later "explanation" in post 689 fails to explain why this reduction would be a problem.

You seem to be claiming the data is somehow false without providing any data to support that assertion.

What has made poverty rates increase again since 1980 is policies in which labor value is pushed down. This was done by a combination of measures, with outsourcing of labor (including the majority of manufacturing labor) to other countries, decreasing wages because wages paid in other countries was less, also increasing unemployment which again drives down wages. As i have discussed in multiple threads on these forums, the wages relative to productivity are at a 40+ year low. It is low wages and high unemployment which causes poverty levels to rise, and this is a result of economic industry changes over the last 30-40 years, not government aid programs.
The false reading, is just that, false. It's not the gauge of things, but the cause. With that data, we act.

But are things getting better?
Are you telling me you believe the data, that all is well, better than 1960 and before? Really?

What happened to "question everything?"
 
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Hetta

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Indeed. I HAVE been. But my point was not to criticize, but to compare apples to apples, and to remind people of there good and rightful place in the world. We Americans have lost our way, but we have no business being France or whomever. Instead of trying to be what makes everyone else great, we would do well to remember what makes US great. We WERE the most envied, why would we want to be someone else? And this I say, not out of arrogance, but because the world once attested to it.

We have a choice to make: copy the runners up, or wake up to who we really are.
Nobody wants America to be like France. America couldn't be like France. I think you entirely missed the point.

Oh and *their.

Like I said, Americans and their English ...
 
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ScottA

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So I'm curious, when did you live there?

As someone who has lived in Europe, in a couple of different countries, I have to disagree with what you are saying here.
I didn't. I am a citizen of the world, eyes wide open. History shows the pattern, if you can follow it. America has lost its compass, so the good of other countries is appealing and attractive, in spite of the pattern. It is the looking back that now creates the backlash. Where the head turns, so turns the body. But if the head is faint, the body catches itself...hopefully. You order another round of drinks, we pass out from drunkenness. But the body is not better than the head. Savvy?
 
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ScottA

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We shouldn't strive to be the most envied. That is a world view. We should stive to be the most compassionate, the most righteous, the most honest, and the most generous. Sort of like Jesus wants us to be.
I agree. I only said we were envied, not that I thought that envy is good.
 
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We shouldn't strive to be the most envied. That is a world view. We should stive to be the most compassionate, the most righteous, the most honest, and the most generous. Sort of like Jesus wants us to be.
We started out like that, and THAT is why were were envied, and why people wanted to get here! Lately, the idea that morality is bad, and that honor is wrong has turned us, and we are becoming what many critics dislike about us. The best of people wish us to return to what made us great.
 
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Hetta

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I didn't. I am a citizen of the world, eyes wide open. History shows the pattern, if you can follow it. America has lost its compass, so the good of other countries is appealing and attractive, in spite of the pattern. It is the looking back that now creates the backlash. Where the head turns, so turns the body. But if the head is faint, the body catches itself...hopefully. You order another round of drinks, we pass out from drunkenness. But the body is not better than the head. Savvy?
Ah so you've been on vacation a couple of foreign countries and that makes you a "citizen of the world" - ROFLOL.
 
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Hetta

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Then why try to pattern after European countries? Why brag about them?
Who is trying to pattern after European countries? When was this?

Any nation that has a sensible leader will look around and when s/he sees good ideas, s/he will see what s/he can do to incorporate them. Isolationalism is stupid.

You make me laughing talking of bragging. All I have read from you is how great America is, and how poor everywhere else is in comparison. I do know that many European countries are superior. Their way of life and living, their social policies, their cleanness and the kindness of their people is something to envy and live up to.
 
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Their social structure is roughly about a 100 years behind us

What on earth are you talking about? Do you want to support any of these points with a fact or a citation?

, with a few little technical things mixed in which makes it seem otherwise. They live in little apartments, work in cubicles, use public everything, and wait in lines, not for simple pleasures heaven forbid, but only for the serious things in life. Life moves at a slower pace.

Sorry, you're talking to a guy who has travelled extensively to Europe for work. I'll go with what I actually know.

Again, I would suggest gleaming the best of both

"gleaning". Sorry to nitpick.

, throwing out a lot of American waste, and slowing the pace down to something more sane. But, there is a down side to their way too, and traveling there (even regularly) is not an accurate gauge.

But WORKING with them is.

And of course they talk up their way,

Not the folks I hang with.

just like a majority of us talk up our way. But there is a reason ALL other countries follow the American commerce model

Do you know which country invented the corporation? (Hint: it wasn't the US). The oldest known commercial corporation is from Sweden. Do you know where the oldest stock exchange is? It's Amsterdam. Do you know which country invented modern banking? Italy. Do you know any history or is it like your view of philosophy, not worth knowing?
 
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