• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Liberals, why can't someone choose their race?

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by Z.Mackenzie, Apr 28, 2016.

  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    Okay; if you want to make the case that Gender is more expressive in nature than race, you need to provide citations or something other than your word.
     
  2. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

    +610
    United States
    Buddhist
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    The discussion doesn't count in any manner? I can present an argument, it's not my word, it's statements you can find fault in that are general in nature, not just an observation that stands on face value.

    You've barely demonstrated in any way how race is more expressive in nature than gender beyond one isolated example and generalizing that to suggest our taking race more seriously in particular contexts means it's necessarily as complex as gender, a concept that's arguably older in terms of the usage, particularly as applied to language.

    And that was far before the historical usages we see conflating it with sex when they were historically distinct, the psychological idea of gender later, but the conflation before that not based in the understanding you seem to think that the words were synonymous when we have demonstrable fact that gender applied in the masculine/feminine sense, the societal/cultural aspects, particularly to language, rather than sex applying to the male/female, the biological aspects.
     
  3. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    I think race and gender are both expressive. Which is more expressive? It all depends on who you ask; I don’t care, and it really doesn’t matter IMO. Even if one can be proven to be more expressive than the other, it still doesn’t justify allowing one to be chosen by what goes on inside your head, but not the other.
     
  4. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

    +3,587
    United States
    Episcopalian
    Single
    US-Others
    From a biological perspective race in modern Homo sapiens doesn’t exist as we’re not genetically diverse enough as a species . Other animals do have races . Gender and sex aren’t the same thing either as sex is the result of chromosome mixing at fertilization . Most but not all humans come out either male or female at that point . Notice I wrote most not all. Gender happens 5 months later when the brain develops to that point . Some people have a mismatch between their sex and their gender. That idea of just male or just female is erroneous . Human sexuality is more complex than that . You even see this in other animals . You’re trying to definitively pin down variable natural phenomena to an idea . It’s better to accept the concept that these are variable
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    So if race doesn’t exist, there should be no problem with Rachael declaring herself black! Agree?
    How are you defining Gender?
     
  6. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

    +3,587
    United States
    Episcopalian
    Single
    US-Others
    Race in America has a social and historical meaning that doesn’t match biological realities. I don’t care what she calls herself as all of us had dark skinned ancestors from Africa. As far as Gender . There’s an older movie based on a tragic true story called Boys Don’t Cry that does a very good job of explaining gender dysphoria.
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    Thanks for answering my first question. As far as my second question, I'm not familiar with the movie. So would you mind explaining how you define gender?
     
  8. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

    +3,587
    United States
    Episcopalian
    Single
    US-Others
    Human sexuality is complex . Gender happens in the brain around the 5th fetal month under the influence of the chromosomes and fetal and maternal hormones . Your sex and your gender can match or it doesn’t . Some people like Christine Jorgenson have a mismatch between their sex and their gender. They’ll complain about being in the wrong body . Ms Jorgenson was one of the first famous people to undergo a sex change operation from male to female. Some people are homosexuals being attracted to the same sex . These are biological realities which I don’t have a problem with and my Christian church accepts these people as is.
     
  9. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    Okay I get it; there are some whose gender and sex do not align. I understand what sex is, and I understand gender is something that happens in the brain. But my question is “what is Gender”?
     
  10. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

    +700
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
  11. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,417
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
  12. ruthiesea

    ruthiesea Active Member

    308
    +223
    Judaism
    Married
    Race is a fiction. It is nothing more than a phenotype resulting from adaptation to a particular environment. It has no meaning.
     
  13. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    If race had no meaning, there wouldn't be all those people giving Rachael Dolezal a hard time for identifying as black
     
  14. durangodawood

    durangodawood Dis Member

    +4,263
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    Fiction has meaning.
     
  15. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

    +4,668
    Atheist
    I think the OP asks an interesting question.

    It seems to me that race is a cultural construct based on superficial phenotypic differences and consequently racial identity must also be a cultural construct (or choice).

    I'm not fully up to date with research in this area, but last I heard, biological sex and gender identity are rather different to race & racial identity in that biological sex is based on more fundamental genetic differences and the predisposition to major gender identity disparity seems to be established during prenatal brain development, so cultural influences have a much smaller role. IOW sex and gender identity are developmental characteristics that don't always match. Sexuality also appears to be a mainly developmental characteristic.
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    If that's the case, the same people who would have no problem accepting her as a man had she identified as one, should accept her as black because she identified that way; do you agree?

    How are you identifying gender?
     
  17. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,417
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Isn't that like saying that if "witch" had no meaning, there wouldn't have been all those people executed for being a witch?

    Just because people believe something, doesn't make it true.
     
  18. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but people were executed for being a witch; there are records of this happening.
     
  19. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +3,417
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Yes, but that doesn't mean that witches are real. It just means that people suffered because of the ideas others had about witches.

    Likewise, people are suffering today because of the ideas that other people have about race. Doesn't mean that the concept of race has any scientific merit. There are no genetic markers for race. There are people that we think of as black who are lighter-skinned than others we think of as white. Race, as a scientific concept, is meaningless, which is exactly what Ruthie said when she said race is a fiction. And what Frumious said when he said race is a social construct. Gender, on the other hand, has clear components to it that are not social. Trans people's brains seem to work more like the brains of their identified genders, for example. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age
     
  20. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +694
    Atheist
    Private
    There are physical differences when it comes to race; aren’t those physical differences based on genetics?
    So what is gender?
    Are you saying there are differences between a male’s brain vs a female’s brain? If so what are these differences?
     
Loading...