Liberals, why can't someone choose their race?

[Ken-1122]

Perhaps they aren't beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means.

If they weren’t beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means, they wouldn’t be having problems with their sex vs gender!

Any one link is arguably insufficient in terms of a phenomenon like language, especially when you have a preconceived notion that makes words so vague they don't mean anything except what "tradition" suggests rather than evolving usage

The link I provided was not vague, it was detailed. It pointed out
*gender is based on social roles based on the sex of the person, or
*a personal identification of ones own gender based on an eternal awareness (something akin to what you have been saying),
*It also pointed out often in ordinary speech there is no distinction between Gender and Sex.

All 3 are accurate; I know you want to pretend the 3rd definition doesn’t exist, but it does; there are people who don’t make the distinction.
And concerning your complaint of the links I provide, what have you provided? I’ve provided various links and sites that supports the claims I make, all you seem to do is make wild claims with nothing to back it up and you expect me to take your word for it. You would do well to provide outside sources to back up your claims as I have.

 

[muichimotsu]

If they weren’t beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means, they wouldn’t be having problems with their sex vs gender!

Why should they be beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means if they aren't hurting anyone reasonably by behaving differently in performance, presentation, etc? And why is it a problem when someone doesn't fit your particular preconceptions of conflating gender and sex in the first place when you've failed to demonstrate they necessarily have much, if any, causal connection rather than correlation in terms of cisgender individuals

The link I provided was not vague, it was detailed. It pointed out
*gender is based on social roles based on the sex of the person, or
*a personal identification of ones own gender based on an eternal awareness (something akin to what you have been saying),
*It also pointed out often in ordinary speech there is no distinction between Gender and Sex.

Ordinary speech is essentially vernacular, that's hardly reflective of anything but a given context of why a culture does that (being prudish about sex because it entails intercourse, that's supposedly a major reason why it's remained that way even with nuances that have been around for over a generation now)

All 3 are accurate; I know you want to pretend the 3rd definition doesn’t exist, but it does; there are people who don’t make the distinction.

There are people who refuse to change with the times in any reasonable fashion, that doesn't make them justified or vindicated because it used to be the case

And concerning your complaint of the links I provide, what have you provided? I’ve provided various links and sites that supports the claims I make, all you seem to do is make wild claims with nothing to back it up and you expect me to take your word for it. You would do well to provide outside sources to back up your claims as I have

Somehow I doubt you'd take them seriously and I'm not wasting my time looking for stuff to substantiate something when that can just as easily be construed as cherry picking when you've found something to fit your conclusions as much as I would for mine. I also don't have all the time in the world to waste on the forums (almost regretting coming back with how contentious and needlessly obtuse discussions can become when someone thinks bringing up a link is some solid support rather than a piece of evidence that doesn't necessarily matter if it's using faulty reasoning in the first place)

 

[Kaon]

She is identifying as a black woman. She has already made that clear. So why can't she be black?

Because she isn't black. It's very simple.

"Race", or phenotypes - especially those that garner derision and injustice - cannot be chosen. The woman is confused, and is in need of self-identity: so she hijacked a biological identity she can never be. If one means, "why can't I look, act and behave like a stereotypical or typical black person?" that is a different issue of psychology and sociology, not "race"/phenotypes.

I get what the OP is doing, but it would be a better attempt if it was about homosexuality, since the biology of that sexual orientation is uncertain at best.

 

[muichimotsu]

Because she isn't black. It's very simple.

"Race", or phenotypes - especially those that garner derision and injustice - cannot be chosen. The woman is confused, and is in need of self-identity: so she hijacked a biological identity she can never be. If one means, "why can't I look, act and behave like a stereotypical or typical black person?" that is a different issue of psychology and sociology, not "race"/phenotypes.

I get what the OP is doing, but it would be a better attempt if it was about homosexuality, since the biology of that sexual orientation is uncertain at best.

Honestly, someone being black and behaving black aren't even necessarily a guarantee, I have a friend who introduced me to the concept of an Oreo, in the sense of they're externally black, but act very white, so to speak.

If she's identifying more with the ethnicity that'd be at least broader in nature than race as a particular category that can, but isn't always so easily constrained, by phenotypes

 

[coffee4u]

Because she isn't black. It's very simple.

"Race", or phenotypes - especially those that garner derision and injustice - cannot be chosen. The woman is confused, and is in need of self-identity: so she hijacked a biological identity she can never be. If one means, "why can't I look, act and behave like a stereotypical or typical black person?" that is a different issue of psychology and sociology, not "race"/phenotypes.

I get what the OP is doing, but it would be a better attempt if it was about homosexuality, since the biology of that sexual orientation is uncertain at best.

This thread is 4 years old and I don't think it should be posted on but Ken keeps going. I have no idea who they are posting to either.

The Op of this thread hasn't been back on CF since May 6, 2016!

Ken, why don't you start your own thread?

 

[Kaon]

...

 

[Kaon]

This thread is 4 years old and I don't think it should be posted on but Ken keeps going. I have no idea who they are posting to either.

The Op of this thread hasn't been back on CF since May 6, 2016!

Ken, why don't you start your own thread?

Thank you, you pointed out some great reasons that remind me why the OP was made 4 years ago more or less, and why it keeps getting a bump.

I know why a new thread wasn't started now...

 

[chilehed]

Why can't Rachel Dolezal be black?

Ummm... for the same reason she can't be a giraffe?

 

[bèlla]

Honestly, someone being black and behaving black aren't even necessarily a guarantee, I have a friend who introduced me to the concept of an Oreo, in the sense of they're externally black, but act very white, so to speak.

What aspect of whiteness are they emulating? Do you believe this is true? Is there a comparable term for the reverse?

~Bella

 

[Ken-1122]

Why should they be beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means if they aren't hurting anyone reasonably by behaving differently in performance, presentation, etc? And why is it a problem when someone doesn't fit your particular preconceptions of conflating gender and sex in the first place when you've failed to demonstrate they necessarily have much, if any, causal connection rather than correlation in terms of cisgender individuals

I think you’ve got it backwards. I’m the one saying they should NOT be beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means. I’m saying behave the way you want, like the way you want, and do what you want; if you prefer “X” over “Y” and some idiot tells you because you are male you are supposed to prefer Y over X, I’m saying you should correct that idiot and tell him you are a male who prefers X over Y. You are the one claiming they should cave to the claims of the idiot by proclaiming they are no longer male but female because they like X over Y

Ordinary speech is essentially vernacular, that's hardly reflective of anything but a given context of why a culture does that (being prudish about sex because it entails intercourse, that's supposedly a major reason why it's remained that way even with nuances that have been around for over a generation now)

Why are you constantly bringing intercourse into the conversation? Again; when we say “sex” in the context of this conversation; nobody is talking about sexual intercourse; we are talking about biological sex. The reality is, in casual conversation a lot of people use Gender and Biological sex interchangeably. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean nobody does.

There are people who refuse to change with the times in any reasonable fashion, that doesn't make them justified or vindicated because it used to be the case

I’m not saying who is or is not justified or vindicated, I’m just pointing out that these people do exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

This thread is 4 years old and I don't think it should be posted on but Ken keeps going. I have no idea who they are posting to either.

The Op of this thread hasn't been back on CF since May 6, 2016!

Ken, why don't you start your own thread?

Is there something against forum rules that says you cannot comment on 4 yr old threads?

 

[Ken-1122]

opps!

 

[Ken-1122]

Because she isn't black. It's very simple.

"Race", or phenotypes - especially those that garner derision and injustice - cannot be chosen.

All races garner derision and injustice from one person or another, and if gender can be chosen, why can’t race?

The woman is confused, and is in need of self-identity: so she hijacked a biological identity she can never be. If one means, "why can't I look, act and behave like a stereotypical or typical black person?" that is a different issue of psychology and sociology, not "race"/phenotypes.

I don’t think you are in a position to judge why she identifies as black.

 

[muichimotsu]

What aspect of whiteness are they emulating? Do you believe this is true? Is there a comparable term for the reverse?

~Bella

Whiteness in a cultural sense. And I'd say it in some relative sense, perhaps, I'm not certain on it, haven't really discussed this at length

And there are a few, like reverse oreo but some are arguably inappropriate for polite conversation and I've heard them. Eminem might be an example?

 

[muichimotsu]

I think you’ve got it backwards. I’m the one saying they should NOT be beholden to what some people think masculine/feminine means. I’m saying behave the way you want, like the way you want, and do what you want; if you prefer “X” over “Y” and some idiot tells you because you are male you are supposed to prefer Y over X, I’m saying you should correct that idiot and tell him you are a male who prefers X over Y. You are the one claiming they should cave to the claims of the idiot by proclaiming they are no longer male but female because they like X over Y

Male is a biological distinction, it's not used in the context of referring to societal norms about masculine and the idea of being a man, you keep getting that twisted. No trans person is saying they are the opposite sex, that notion of transsexual as a term should die out, it's horribly inaccurate

Why are you constantly bringing intercourse into the conversation? Again; when we say “sex” in the context of this conversation; nobody is talking about sexual intercourse; we are talking about biological sex. The reality is, in casual conversation a lot of people use Gender and Biological sex interchangeably. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean nobody does.

Casual conversation is a relative phenomenon, it shifts meaning based on common usage, same with gay. Sex can imply intercourse in terms of its usage, that's part of the historical basis for why sex and gender were conflated because people were so prudish they didn't even want to insinuate sex in the conversation, so they used gender, even though gender is broader in etymology anyway

I’m not saying who is or is not justified or vindicated, I’m just pointing out that these people do exist.

And there are people who think being gay is a choice, we don't just give everyone equal standing when they're working on limited facts or faulty reasoning

 

[bèlla]

Whiteness in a cultural sense. And I'd say it in some relative sense, perhaps, I'm not certain on it, haven't really discussed this at length.

You cannot articulate whiteness without addressing social class. Thus, when you broach the subject. I’m uncertain if you’re referencing rednecks, yuppies, hipsters, the affluent, new money, or old money WASPs.

I can’t fathom people of color are mimicking them all. There must be a standard and I don’t believe any of the groups would apply. They have defined behaviors associated with them.

Therefore, I can only surmise that individuals who hold this viewpoint are referencing themselves in the statement. Which is likely to pertain to the middle class or ordinary folk as they’re often termed.

Why would anyone aspire to mimic that? Oftentimes people emulate behaviors from persons in higher financial brackets than themselves. Which points to yuppies and the affluent. Discretionary income is the selling point.

And there are a few, like reverse oreo but some are arguably inappropriate for polite conversation and I've heard them. Eminem might be an example?

Poverty has a way of bridging gaps. Money puts unpleasant things out of site. When you have limited means the likelihood of integration is much higher. Eminem is an example of someone who successfully capitalized on his meagerness.

I would advise you to disregard what you’ve been told and recognize it hailed from a small mind with limited exposure. Repeating it would imply an absence of decorum or breeding in certain circles.

You won’t have the luxury of pinning the blame on a friend. And it could elicit a retort. Unless you are willing to subject yourself to similar scrutiny. I’d avoid it.

~Bella

 

[muichimotsu]

You cannot articulate whiteness without addressing social class. Thus, when you broach the subject. I’m uncertain if you’re referencing rednecks, yuppies, hipsters, the affluent, new money, or old money WASPs.

As if whiteness isn't on a spectrum as much as blackness, I'm talking in a general sense, but by your examples, I'd probably go with yuppie as a rough comparison in contrast to at least "typical" blackness

I can’t fathom people of color are mimicking them all. There must be a standard and I don’t believe any of the groups would apply. They have defined behaviors associated with them.

I never used the term mimicry and I don't think there's an unflinching standard, it's as much a contrast with stereotypes that are applied to white as they are to black respectively

Therefore, I can only surmise that individuals who hold this viewpoint are referencing themselves in the statement. Which is likely to pertain to the middle class or ordinary folk as they’re often termed.

Why would anyone aspire to mimic that? Oftentimes people emulate behaviors from persons in higher financial brackets than themselves. Which points to yuppies and the affluent. Discretionary income is the selling point.

Again, I didn't say mimicry, I said they observe their disposition is such that it feels like they're white internally even if they're black externally. And the social class aspect is possibly involved, but not necessarily in a conscious fashion, usually more referencing cultural ideas that can be associated with economic status, etc

Poverty has a way of bridging gaps. Money puts unpleasant things out of site. When you have limited means the likelihood of integration is much higher. Eminem is an example of someone who successfully capitalized on his meagerness.

I would advise you to disregard what you’ve been told and recognize it hailed from a small mind with limited exposure. Repeating it would imply an absence of decorum or breeding in certain circles.

You won’t have the luxury of pinning the blame on a friend. And it could elicit a retort. Unless you are willing to subject yourself to similar scrutiny. I’d avoid it.

I'm not claiming this is an absolute fact in the slightest, I'm saying it has some importance in factoring into the discussion of race as a social construct in how the stereotypes associated with various factors are possibly a part of how the concept is constructed by societal norms, etc.

Not sure I've suggested I'm above such scrutiny, but I don't think people would not claim I'm stereotypically "white" in some sense

 

[bèlla]

As if whiteness isn't on a spectrum as much as blackness, I'm talking in a general sense, but by your examples, I'd probably go with yuppie as a rough comparison in contrast to at least "typical" blackness

What is typical blackness and how does that correlate with typical whiteness in comparison?

Again, I didn't say mimicry, I said they observe their disposition is such that it feels like they're white internally even if they're black externally.

What behaviors lead them to that conclusion?

I'm not claiming this is an absolute fact in the slightest, I'm saying it has some importance in factoring into the discussion of race as a social construct in how the stereotypes associated with various factors are possibly a part of how the concept is constructed by societal norms, etc.

What are you drawing from? Are these firsthand experiences you’ve had which substantiate your argument? Or are you gleaning from others and their observations and experiences instead?

Not sure I've suggested I'm above such scrutiny, but I don't think people would not claim I'm stereotypically "white" in some sense

The problem with stereotypes is someone always breaks the mold and destroys the carefully crafted ideology they’ve built.

~Bella

 

[Ken-1122]

Male is a biological distinction, it's not used in the context of referring to societal norms about masculine and the idea of being a man,

I disagree. When people speak of masculinity or of being a man, they are referring to biological males.

No trans person is saying they are the opposite sex,

I disagree! There are trans women, who are claiming they are women, want female pronouns used when they are referred to and want everyone else to treat them the same as biological women.

 

[muichimotsu]

What is typical blackness and how does that correlate with typical whiteness in comparison?

I never said it was some numerical or quantifiable notion, methinks you're insinuating stuff I didn't claim

What behaviors lead them to that conclusion?

Observations that may be limited or inaccurate, I cannot say

What are you drawing from? Are these firsthand experiences you’ve had which substantiate your argument? Or are you gleaning from others and their observations and experiences instead?

My "argument" is little more than an observation that is already founded on a notion that race is a social construct, I'm not trying to put people into boxes like you're claiming I am

The problem with stereotypes is someone always breaks the mold and destroys the carefully crafted ideology they’ve built.

Not sure I remotely said this was an absolute thing, so you're taking down a strawman here