Liberals attack doughnut shop's good deed -- What is wrong with them?

FireDragon76

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BTW, lots of Christians in Africa practice polygamy. Missionaries accommodated to that practice a long time ago, even if they did not particularly like it. I don't happen to think polygamy is all that great, especially because it tends to go hand in hand with highly patriarchal cultures where women have few rights, but that's different from saying "the Bible says if you are polygamous, you can't be saved". Because it doesn't.
 
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SilverBear

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They wrote it was a sin, period.
along with dozens of other things that modern Christians don't view as sinful at all.

Not that is matters, but how did you decide the homosexuality spoken against were not homosexuals in love/consensual? I've seen nothing to indicate it either way.
technically the old testament talks about a sex act.


“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.” Lynn Lavner


(actually, it contains less than six)
 
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SilverBear

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There's various levels of sin. There's not keeping the Sabbath or giving false witness, which are minor. Then there's murder and being gay which are major, mortal sins. Do you condone murder too?
Yeah because being gay is just like being a murderer.
 
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JackRT

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BTW, lots of Christians in Africa practice polygamy. Missionaries accommodated to that practice a long time ago, even if they did not particularly like it. I don't happen to think polygamy is all that great, especially because it tends to go hand in hand with highly patriarchal cultures where women have few rights, but that's different from saying "the Bible says if you are polygamous, you can't be saved". Because it doesn't.

I agree. Polygamy persisted into New testament times but I am aware of only one prohibition. That referred to the office of bishop "husband of one wife" and was not a blanket prohibition.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Common sense is often just prejudice and ignorance under another name. We need to be more critical than that in reading the Scriptures.

Then it's not common sense, it's prejudice. I said common sense. Did you notice how quickly and easily you blatantly/nonsensically, turned common sense into prejudice, and are probably happy with that complete twist as an actual answer, while not even noticing what you really did?

Very good example of how the process works, not to mention...telling.
 
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JackRT

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Christian missionaries in Africa quickly discovered that insisting that a convert rid himself of all but his first wife could lead to huge problems. First, many would simply refuse conversion but even worse was that these extra women and their children were simply turned loose to fend for themselves. This led to huge unintended societal problems because many of these women were not accepted back by their birth families and were forced into prostitution simply to provide food for their children and themselves.
 
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Kenny'sID

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The Gospel has set you free.

If I live it as a lifestyle, absolutely. At the very least, I'm not taking the chance.

The Gospel has set you free.

Oh, that's right, Christ died to make us free to sin and still get to heaven. You know, If that, for no particular reason doesn't just seem wrong, as it does to most of us, there IS something wrong.

A popular delusion many will carry to their grave....unfortunately.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Christian missionaries in Africa quickly discovered that insisting that a convert rid himself of all but his first wife could lead to huge problems. First, many would simply refuse conversion but even worse was that these extra women and their children were simply turned loose to fend for themselves. This led to huge unintended societal problems because many of these women were not accepted back by their birth families and were forced into prostitution simply to provide food for their children and themselves.

So because of an extenuating circumstance, and that's just assuming he was correct in his assumption....we should all happily go against scripture and marry as many wives as we like?

For all injtents an purposes your post is basically not even relevant...and far from a defense, except for the fact it may fool some into thinking you have a real point....more of that "little game". ;)
 
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SilverBear

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As civil marriage had for thousands of years been defined as one thing (i.e. the union of a male and female) Resistance to changing that meaning does not have to be based upon a religious POV.

Marriage never changed until gay marriage came along - that is why interracial marriage is still illegal, and rape victims are still forced to marry their rapists, and 12-year-old girls are still married to middle-aged men, and polygamy is just fine, and why you are still obligated to rape your widowed sister in law if she hasn't already produced a son.
 
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SilverBear

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What in your opinion makes a value retrograde? I think it is quite unfair to label all conservative evangelicals as hating those specific groups. Other than a few outliers, I do not see that as the case.
There is quite a difference between disagreement and hate. Which stuff are you referring to that has little or nothing to do with Jesus?
Denying people civil rights is not disagreement
Comparing someone to murderers or child molesters is not disagreement
 
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SilverBear

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Why do you want to ignore the history of the rest of humanity and the many secular arguments against redefining marriage . Could we not be more inclusive? Must we pretend that only Christians couls d object to redefining marriage?


what secular arguments?
 
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Kenny'sID

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along with dozens of other things that modern Christians don't view as sinful at all.

As I've said before, who are you addressing me or someone else?

Or maybe that's the only way you can make the statement... claim someone else don't view that as sinful, someone who is not even here to defend themselves, as you imply those to which you reply are what you claim someone else is... Wishy washy...and more game.

technically the old testament talks about a sex act.

How does that apply to that which you quoted?

“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.” Lynn Lavner

Lynn got game. :)
 
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SilverBear

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Did God not destroy Sodom and Gammorah because of it's tolerance of homosexuality. Did God not inflict 9/11 on our country because of the same sin. There is no sin greatervthan homosexuality as evidenced by God's willingness to burn cities because of it.

That's what a liberal says.

No, it's what God says.

'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” Ezekiel 16:49
 
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FireDragon76

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Oh, that's right, Christ died to make us free to sin and still get to heaven. You know, If that, for no particular reason doesn't just seem wrong, as it does to most of us, there IS something wrong..

Yeah, you are "free" to sin because you aren't a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. It's what you are, not what you do.

The Gospel is a radical proclamation of God's pardoning grace. It is so radical, no human being can fully comprehend it, and because we are sinners, we tend to find it hard to just accept it. It offends our pride. But that has nothing to do with it's truth.

We believe that while we are still sinners, we have been justified by God and set free from the condemnation of sin to live lives pleasing to God through loving our neighbor and serving them in our vocations.
 
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JackRT

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So because of an extenuating circumstance, and that's just assuming he was correct in his assumption....we should all happily go against scripture and marry as many wives as we like?

For all injtents an purposes your post is basically not even relevant...and far from a defense, except for the fact it may fool some into thinking you have a real point....more of that "little game". ;)

What a lot of Christian churches have done is to "grandfather" polygamy. No new wives and converts to take only one wife or one husband. There is no Biblical prohibition against either polygamy or polyandry.
 
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SilverBear

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As I've said before, who are you addressing me or someone else?
You.

Or maybe that's the only way you can make the statement... claim someone else don't view that as sinful, someone who is not even here to defend themselves, as you imply those to which you reply are what you claim someone else is... Wishy washy...and more game.
I don't see you condemning people with tattoos.

There are hundreds of laws in the bible that no one considers to be sins - why do so many get a pass from you but not this one....?
 
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FireDragon76

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Christian missionaries in Africa quickly discovered that insisting that a convert rid himself of all but his first wife could lead to huge problems. First, many would simply refuse conversion but even worse was that these extra women and their children were simply turned loose to fend for themselves. This led to huge unintended societal problems because many of these women were not accepted back by their birth families and were forced into prostitution simply to provide food for their children and themselves.

I think that has relevant pastoral applications to the question of gay couples. Asking the Church to tear families apart is beyond cruel, as your example shows.

Curiously enough, some conservative Lutherans would probably agree, judging by what my pastor says. Even if we think homosexuality is not God's ideal, the ethics of how the Church approaches this issue is far from black and white, because we are dealing with real persons created in the image of God.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Yeah, you are "free" to sin because you aren't a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner. It's what you are, not what you do.

Can you please explain this verse that includes the sin we discuss as well as others, all of which you say we can practice freely now, when the scripture is clear what happens if we do. And it hardly says we can practice them freely. What possible indication could you possibly have, the scripture should not be taken literally and is not absolutely as clear as day?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.


Then why bring others into it, claim they think what you say when they aren't here to defend them selves? Or in short, create yet another false claim as far as I know.

I don't see you condemning people with tattoos.

This thread is not about tattoos. There are several things I don't mention here because the thread is not about those things...so?

Are any of you getting why I used the term "games" early on here?


There are hundreds of laws in the bible that no one considers to be sins - why do so many get a pass from you but not this one....?

Purely assumption. Please give me a list of what sins gets a pass from me and explain how you drew the conclusion?
 
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FireDragon76

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Can you please explain this verse that includes the sin we discuss as well as others, all of which you say we can practice freely now, when the scripture is clear what happens if we do. And it hardly says we can practice them freely. What possible indication could you possibly have, the scripture should not be taken literally and is not absolutely as clear as day?

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

That's Law, not Gospel. We apply the Law mostly to people that do not believe the Gospel, but also to some extent to show us our sinfulness so that the Gospel is contextualized. However, the Law does not necessarily indicate a guide to the Christian life. We tend to emphasize the guide to the Christian life is in found in Jesus' gracious example, which is made present to us through the sacraments in a real way. So, our sense of ethics is shaped heavily by our sacramental orientation to the Christian faith (similar to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy). You cannot fully understand being Lutheran without, on some level, experiencing that.

I was skeptical at first too, also. How can you be a real Christian , without legalism or moralism? I don't know, that's the miracle of grace when it is present in a community through the power of the Word.

I mean obviously, if we take Paul literally, he is wrong. Adulterers can go to heaven, else nobody who is divorced would go to heaven. And plenty of people have been greedy (who hasn't been?) or taken things in their life that don't belong to them (in more ways that simply stealing an physical object), and yet their lives are not characterized by their sins, but by God's grace. So we acknowledge the Christian life is also a matter of growth and God is not finished working on us in our present state. And that's true of the gay or lesbian person that trusts in Jesus, too. We have no problem telling them, your sins are forgiven, because we have that promise from Jesus that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.
 
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