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Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Violet Edge, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

    +1,123
    Pentecostal
    It depends a bit on what is meant by reform the government. Neither Christ nor Paul forbade us from participating in politics. I think as a believer we have a right just like any other citizen to participate in politics. It's not our job to force people to believe as we do not to pass laws forcing people to believe the same as us. But I do not find a prohibition on us to participate in a political process. Yes our primary mission is to share the gospel. But we are not forbidden from politics.
     
  2. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

    +1,373
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    True.

    Before social welfare, paid for by redistributive taxation, it wasn't enough.
     
  3. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

    +1,123
    Pentecostal
    I agree. There are sins that are worse than others. But as you said any sin great or small will prevent us from heaven without the saving grace of Christ. So to the unbeliever it matters not what sins he has committed. So we are in agreement here.
     
  4. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

    +1,123
    Pentecostal
    Please quote scripture to support that.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

    +14,056
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Our 21st century government is quite inefficient which leads to much of the suffering. American poor do not hold a candle to Somali poor. An American living at or below the poverty line could live like a king elsewhere.
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
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    And showed, God destroyed nations for acting contrary to its laws, though they were not under them as enlightened covenant people, but while the Law expressly defined sin, in essence they knew the moral law, and violating it, including acting contrary to the principle behind ceremonial law (such as separation from evil) was sin, and thus Paul spoke of1.
    natural revelation with the innate sense of morality:

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)

    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:15-16)

    Thus all are under the Law in the sense of either knowing the express revelation of His Law, which was reception of greater grace, or whatever valid sense of morality one had (which is easily defiled), the validity of which was based upon the Law in its fullness, with Christ this being the ultimate Judge. And as no one keeps the law, then all stand in need of redemption on Christian expense and credit, by His sinless shed blood.

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (Romans 3:19)

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4)

    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:24-27)

    Glory to the most high God in the highest.
     
  7. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
    Single
    A person drowning 1,000 yards offshore is in need of rescue just as a person 100 yards off is. Both are helpless and need a savior who can swim.
     
  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
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    To a degree yes, and never commend it but counsel against it, this being perhaps the single most common cause of reduced life expectancy. But I realize that some have a harder problem due to metabolism than others, and may not be eating out of lust at all (or because the clock says its time), but for strength. However, that is not the norm, and in any case it is not to be promoted (as homosex is).
     
  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
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    I am not disagreeing with all you said, which was a lot, but the above statement is not wholly true except on a wide scale outside one community. For under exceptional, manifestly holy and wise men of God:

    And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. (Acts 4:31-35)

    And [after the supernatural execution of lying deceivers] by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) (Acts 5:12-14)

    That was not that norm, but the start of the original organic community. Later,

    Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. (1 Timothy 6:17-19)
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
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    So instead you believe in forcing others through governmental policy to adhere to what someone else or class of people think? Whether we like it or not, that is how it works, and with both liberals and conservatives being for liberty for many things and contrary to liberty for others, with both accusing each other of being anti-liberty, while the issue is the substance and scope.

    In a constitutional republic, the founding documents and laws reflect what the writers thereof believed, which have sources. For some Scripture was supreme while at the least they overall affirmed its basic moral authority and none were atheists.

    But the Constitution is open to some degree of interpretation, including what can be extrapolated out of it based upon its principles, and directly or indirectly the those who provide this interpretation are the electorate, which choices reflect what they truly believe. At one time Christianity was held to be the "civil religion," and as the French (Catholic) political thinker and historian (best known for his two volume, “Democracy in America”) attested,

    The sects that exist in the United States are innumerable. They all differ in respect to the worship which is due to the Creator; but they all agree in respect to the duties which are due from man to man. Each sect adores the Deity in its own peculiar manner, but all sects preach the same moral law in the name of God...Moreover, all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same...

    In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth...

    The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live...

    Thus religious zeal is perpetually warmed in the United States by the fires of patriotism. These men do not act exclusively from a consideration of a future life; eternity is only one motive of their devotion to the cause. If you converse with these missionaries of Christian civilization, you will be surprised to hear them speak so often of the goods of this world, and to meet a politician where you expected to find a priest. " (Democracy in America, Volume I Chapter XVII, 1835; Tocqueville: Book I Chapter 17)

    Thus what they believed had an effect, we can expect, insofar as their voting actually reflects what they profess, that they would be for liberty for many things and contrary to liberty for others, with different degrees of depth of conviction vs. preferences.

    But cultures and the overall "civil religion" that of general ideology can change, and which thus is reflected in the governance and laws, from slight changes to revolution, all reflective of what people believed, and both being for some liberties and against others. Even anarchist are so, as they can be against making laws (except by their own).

    Thus we cannot escape being both for liberty (except perhaps if you are a Stalin or Kim Jung Un) and against it, and the issue is upon what based our judgments are made, and the benefits vs costs of them.

    The sexual revolution worked to cast off the censure against traditional values such as fornication (which always was a problem, but shameful) and respect for authority and the traditional family (even to the point of trying hard to raise a chimp as much like a human - as per liberal college ideas - and thus be like a human as they could), and the concept of the right to benefits by merit, versus the victim-entitlement mentality

    But this freedom has had great costs.
     
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  11. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
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    Here you made a cogent, valid post.
     
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  12. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    +1,198
    Christian
    Single
    You mean according to your inherently tired and lame dismissal in lieu of an argument.
    Really? I see it as being not being about monogamous marriage (which most male homosexuals do not engage in) but under that smoke scree being about how what the homosexual movement fosters negatively effects the lives of others, with liberals imagining it does not.
    Then see what happens when you try to hinder it after decades or it being speciously sanctified in the name of "love."
    Have you stopped to consider that is overall propaganda, at least in most major cities, and to the contrary, speaking (let alone acting) in any way that a homosexual voices as offensive (which can very easy charged as being so) immediately places one at risk of losing his job (by force of pressure or termination) if it comes out in public.

    Whether is be the resignation of Mozilla's CEO for his $1,000 contribution to Proposition 8 (versus against nit as Jeff Bezo) or the highly regarded Atlanta Fire Chief Kelvin Cochran due to authoring a Christian book in 2013 that described homosexuality as a "sexual perversion" or the Detroit firefighter fired for bringing watermelon to the fire station as a introductory gift (most members were black, and who stuck up for him) and multitudes more, it is the conservatives (and not meaning white supremacists) who face censure and punishment far more than homosexual or black racial activists.

    I dare say thee two classes are the two most protected classes of people in the West. Which as a mere observational statement (which it is) would be enough to to result in the charge of being homophobic and racist (even if a black person said it). No go ahead and tell me how you think i personally treat either.
    Where do you see this as being widespread, versus being called homophobic and racist by the media or the vocal majority of the population? And basically blacklisted if a public figure?
    That actually can be taken as a slur, since it would categorize the majority of college students, where promiscuity abounds as mentally ill (not saying many should not be), as well as multitudes of others who do not engage in such due to self hatred, but out of love for pleasure and self.

    But then there are laws against preventing conversion therapy.
     
  13. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

    +4,133
    United States
    Lutheran
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    "Protected classes"... do I sense resentment? Read the parable of the Prodigal Son some time, and see where that gets you.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +5,023
    Anabaptist
    The 'protected classes' of the world are not protected by Yahweh.
    He sees things much differently from the world/ men/ mankind.
    (as high as heaven is above the earth, in fact).

    Likewise, (for previous topic in the thread)
    the instructions from Yahweh and from Yeshua (Jesus) are quite
    clear about not getting involved in the world's politics. (it is widely disclosed in Scripture and online - not worth going into here)
     
  15. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

    +1,373
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    I will grant that the post-resurrection Jerusalem Christian community, which lived communally, with community property, all as described in Acts, is an example of how well mankind can, and ought to, live. I will also notice that the non-compliance of Christians themselves with the model in the very early church resulted in two people, a husband and wife, being directly killed by God in the church, at the feet of Peter demonstrating a great many things, and standing as a (largely unheeded) warning.
     
  16. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

    +1,373
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Why?
     
  17. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

    +1,373
    Catholic
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    US-Others
    That is because of over a century of public education, and 85 years of social welfare. Poverty has been substantially mitigated in America. Dust Bowl Era Americans, before social welfare, were as poor as any Somali.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +1,473
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Wonderful...........there is ONE sin which can not be forgiven and that is the sin of "Unbelief".

    That is the Unpardonable sin!
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +1,473
    United States
    Christian
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    Now think about that.

    The people of the dust bowl got into their trucks and cars and moved away.
    The dust bowl was NOT from social injustice or religious persecution or even war or government intrusion. It was because men did not cultivate their land correctly.

    The people in Somali just lay there and die.

    It just does not seem like a well thought out thesis to me.
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +1,473
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    So that we can see if it is A Bible teaching or simple YOUR opinion.

    We all have opinions and most are uselly incorrect.
     
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