Liberal Christianity and sexual ethics

Ignatius the Kiwi

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We all know about conservative or traditional Christianity and the sexual ethics which come about from that. A focus on chastity, monogamy, childbearing and the like. My question is to those who consider themselves liberal Christians. Is there a sexual ethical standard which Christians and humanity broadly are to submit to? If so, what is it? What are the limitations on sexual matters, if any?
 

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Ignatius the Kiwi

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We could conclude from these articles that liberal Christianity promotes and supports doing away with traditional Christian strictures and rules on sex.

The first article in particular suggests that because there is no explicit condemnation of premarital sex in the Bible, therefore sex outside of marriage is permissible. Though the author justifies this assertion through the idea of committed cohabitation and that this should be the more 'compassionate' approach.

The problem I see with this sort of reasoning is that marriage is the only legitimate expression of sexual expression offered in the bible. We do not see approved of as a broad basis the idea of sex outside of marriage. Whenever sex is talked about and what is to be done about it legitimately it is within the context of a marriage.

Thus the Old Testament says if a man seduces a virgin he is to marry her and pay the bride price. Why, if it is permissible to continue a relationship like this, does he have to marry her if marriage is not a necessity?

Liberal Christianity doesn't want to offer any real limitations on sexual expression, or especially any condemnation of sexual acts. It seems to operate on the secular presumption that consent is the be all and end all of the matter. As long as one consents, it's legitimate.
 
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Paulomycin

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We could conclude from these articles that liberal Christianity promotes and supports doing away with traditional Christian strictures and rules on sex.

The first article in particular suggests that because there is no explicit condemnation of premarital sex in the Bible, therefore sex outside of marriage is permissible. Though the author justifies this assertion through the idea of committed cohabitation and that this should be the more 'compassionate' approach.

The problem I see with this sort of reasoning is that marriage is the only legitimate expression of sexual expression offered in the bible. We do not see approved of as a broad basis the idea of sex outside of marriage. Whenever sex is talked about and what is to be done about it legitimately it is within the context of a marriage.

Thus the Old Testament says if a man seduces a virgin he is to marry her and pay the bride price. Why, if it is permissible to continue a relationship like this, does he have to marry her if marriage is not a necessity?

Liberal Christianity doesn't want to offer any real limitations on sexual expression, or especially any condemnation of sexual acts. It seems to operate on the secular presumption that consent is the be all and end all of the matter. As long as one consents, it's legitimate.

Yes. I also noticed that all the links completely ignored Acts 15, as well as 1 Cor 5:9, 6:13-18, 7:2, 10:8, and the list goes on and on. . .
 
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hedrick

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The first question is what you mean by liberal. The three articles include Jewish and “progressive” Christian, and author on a site that doesn't seem to be religious who doesn't identify his brand of Christianity. But what CF considers liberal is typically mainline Christianity, which doesn’t normally go as far as progressives. I’ve been involved in discussions of sexuality for decades, and as a Sunday School teacher I have at least some idea what our kids and parents think. My suggestions are roughly in line with that.

While the second of the three is useful, there are limits.
* You really want people to make decisions on what they are going to do before getting into emotional situations. Maybe this qualifies as rules and maybe it doesn’t. The church has a duty to help people form these decisions. As noted in one article, comprehensive sexual education has proven the most effective way to do that, though I'd expect the Church to couple that with Christian ideas about marriage and sex.
* We need to honor commitments. Deep personal relationships require trust, and trust requires us to make and keep commitments.

There's a whole debate about the usefulness of rules. The extreme position was "situation ethics," which asserted that we shouldn't have any rules, but should in any situation do what is the most loving. This was pretty effectively demolished by Paul Ramsay's book "Deeds and Rules in Christian Ethics." That debate was long enough ago that a lot of Christians today don't remember it.

I’d say that a permanent marriage is the ideal. However as humans, we often don’t get the ideal. Roughly speaking I’d try to stay reasonably close.

Liberal Christians have generally opposed prostitution. De facto both liberal and conservative Christians have sex before marriage. But I think most of us would say that that should occur in committed relationships, and that there should be as few as possible before marriage.

Liberal sexual ethics have typically been stronger than conservative on demanding mutual support. It was really pressure from liberals, Christian and otherwise, that caused both churches and society to seriously deal with abuse in marriage and abuse of children. Liberal ethics have also been stronger in recognizing potentials for abuse caused by differing levels of power or prestige, e.g. sex between student and teacher, or minister and someone they are counseling. These things have been picked up by conservatives.
 
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hedrick

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More specifically, there is a limit to the analysis of extramarital intercourse by the Jewish author. I think it's right to say that the OT doesn't prohibit it. However by Jesus' time Jews did, or at least many Jews did. The NT isn't very explicit. The key word "inappropriate contenteia" has a range of possible meanings. But it seems that the more restrictive 1st Cent Jewish attitude is shown at least in Paul, though you have to read between the lines to be sure. The use of "inappropriate contenteia" in Acts 15 has the usual uncertainty. I think it covered all extra-marital intercourse, but it's possible to make arguments against that.

This doesn't necessarily settle things for liberal Christians, but looking at the reasons would take us beyond the intent of the OP.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The first question is what you mean by liberal. The three articles include Jewish and “progressive” Christian, and author on a site that doesn't seem to be religious who doesn't identify his brand of Christianity. But what CF considers liberal is typically mainline Christianity, which doesn’t normally go as far as progressives. I’ve been involved in discussions of sexuality for decades, and as a Sunday School teacher I have at least some idea what our kids and parents think. My suggestions are roughly in line with that.

While the second of the three is useful, there are limits.
* You really want people to make decisions on what they are going to do before getting into emotional situations. Maybe this qualifies as rules and maybe it doesn’t. The church has a duty to help people form these decisions. As noted in one article, comprehensive sexual education has proven the most effective way to do that, though I'd expect the Church to couple that with Christian ideas about marriage and sex.
* We need to honor commitments. Deep personal relationships require trust, and trust requires us to make and keep commitments.

There's a whole debate about the usefulness of rules. The extreme position was "situation ethics," which asserted that we shouldn't have any rules, but should in any situation do what is the most loving. This was pretty effectively demolished by Paul Ramsay's book "Deeds and Rules in Christian Ethics." That debate was long enough ago that a lot of Christians today don't remember it.

I’d say that a permanent marriage is the ideal. However as humans, we often don’t get the ideal. Roughly speaking I’d try to stay reasonably close.

Liberal Christians have generally opposed prostitution. De facto both liberal and conservative Christians have sex before marriage. But I think most of us would say that that should occur in committed relationships, and that there should be as few as possible before marriage.

Liberal sexual ethics have typically been stronger than conservative on demanding mutual support. It was really pressure from liberals, Christian and otherwise, that caused both churches and society to seriously deal with abuse in marriage and abuse of children. Liberal ethics have also been stronger in recognizing potentials for abuse caused by differing levels of power or prestige, e.g. sex between student and teacher, or minister and someone they are counseling. These things have been picked up by conservatives.
I think the best definition of ‘liberal’ is classical liberalism. A general tendency towards freedom of expression and doing away with traditional strictures, rules, customs or traditions in favor of new ways of doing things. This is as you have said represented by the mainline Protestant churches in America.

I think that liberal attitude is exhibited in the drifting of attitudes within liberal denominations towards accepting the sexual revolution instead of rejecting it. For instance, when saying Christians generally oppose prostitution, what is the liberal Christian reasoning behind opposing someone’s freedom to purchase sex and someone’s freedom to sell sex? Are they not free to do as they wish or desire? If so why not? If you are going to argue on the basis of power dynamics then what you’re engaged in isn’t so much a theological reckoning of these matters as much as you are a sociological one. More political than it is concerned with theology.

It’s like when you say marriage is an ideal, but not one always lived up to. This effectively does away with the rule or standard of marriage, viewing it as impracticable and not something to be done in reality. It can be aimed for but if we fail to meet it, then what exactly?

Not sure I agree with you about liberal sexual attitudes being stronger in recognizing power dynamics between people. Such dynamics have always been part of society and general wisdom has told people to marry closer to their station. Rules have always been in place to prohibit these sorts of relationships from forming, though not for the reason of power but more for property sakes. Though they achieve the same outcome. Bishops were forbidden for instance to have a woman living in their house as early as the council of Nicaea. I think even John Calvin had to rebuke one of his friends for marrying a much younger woman.

To the actual question of limits you say:

“You really want people to make decisions on what they are going to do before getting into emotional situations. Maybe this qualifies as rules and maybe it doesn’t. The church has a duty to help people form these decisions. As noted in one article, comprehensive sexual education has proven the most effective way to do that, though I'd expect the Church to couple that with Christian ideas about marriage and sex.”

Is the idea then of general counsel but no application of rules or expectations? This seems more therapeutic than anything theologically orientated. The idea of liberals is to guide people to a certain outcome, but if that outcome is not accomplished then what are the consequences? Does the idea of sin ever enter the picture? Can one sin sexually within this therapeutic style of instruction?

“We need to honor commitments. Deep personal relationships require trust, and trust requires us to make and keep commitments.”

What if the commitment is a minor one agreed to by both parties in exchange for mutual sexual gratification? Let’s add that both parties are doing everything responsibly, taking all necessary precautions for physical safety. Is there anything wrong being done?

Commitment by itself would then seem to be almost the same thing as consent.

As a liberal Christian you can only speak for yourself, but how do you view the question of sexual sin?
 
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hedrick

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Sure sin enters the picture. I realize the previous posting could be read as denying that. I was setting out what I take to be general principles. But some rules do follow from them. There are also areas where it's harder to formulate a specific rule, but there are serious cautions.

The clearest kinds of sexual sins are those that harm others. I think prostitution falls into that category. So do various kinds of sexual abuse. I would include adultery, incest, and relationships that violate norms regarding status difference, i.e. adults with children, etc.

Others are gray areas, e.g. divorce. Marriage is intended to be permanent. But there are times when it's the lesser of evils. Both Matthew and Paul recognize situations where it can be used. Many of the things that cause the kind of breakdown that divorce recognizes are sins.

Some other issues can't be discussed in this forum under CF rules.
 
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RDKirk

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Anybody can put up a website. That doesn't indicate what the mass of people actually believe or do.

"Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do." -- Steven D. Levitt

If you watch even what "conservative" Christians in America actually do, you see a lot of sexual hypocrisy going on.
 
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RDKirk

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I think the best definition of ‘liberal’ is classical liberalism. A general tendency towards freedom of expression and doing away with traditional strictures, rules, customs or traditions in favor of new ways of doing things. This is as you have said represented by the mainline Protestant churches in America.

That's not what "classical liberalism" is.

Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism that advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom. As a term, classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier 19th-century liberalism from social liberalism.
 
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hedrick

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“We need to honor commitments. Deep personal relationships require trust, and trust requires us to make and keep commitments.”

What if the commitment is a minor one agreed to by both parties in exchange for mutual sexual gratification? Let’s add that both parties are doing everything responsibly, taking all necessary precautions for physical safety. Is there anything wrong being done?

Commitment by itself would then seem to be almost the same thing as consent.
The quoted comment was actually intended to justify prohibiting adultery. However a one-night stand is not what people mean when they talk about committed relationships. You're using an unusual understanding of the phrase.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I think it is a false assumption to believe that most progressive Christians have a markedly different sexual ethic than more conservative Christians. As I look around my own congregation of what many would consider a progressive denomination, I largely see commitment to long-term mongomous relationships, chastity, and the like. Perhaps I am naive, but I think believing that all persons should be included in the life of the church is not the same as believing in the abandonment of a sexual ethic that has characterized the church for over 2,000 years.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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That's not what "classical liberalism" is.

Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism that advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom. As a term, classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier 19th-century liberalism from social liberalism.

How does this contradict what I said regarding what liberalism is? Certainty liberalism has shifted society away from Christian values would you agree?

Sure sin enters the picture. I realize the previous posting could be read as denying that. I was setting out what I take to be general principles. But some rules do follow from them. There are also areas where it's harder to formulate a specific rule, but there are serious cautions.

The clearest kinds of sexual sins are those that harm others. I think prostitution falls into that category. So do various kinds of sexual abuse. I would include adultery, incest, and relationships that violate norms regarding status difference, i.e. adults with children, etc.

Others are gray areas, e.g. divorce. Marriage is intended to be permanent. But there are times when it's the lesser of evils. Both Matthew and Paul recognize situations where it can be used. Many of the things that cause the kind of breakdown that divorce recognizes are sins.

Some other issues can't be discussed in this forum under CF rules.

What is meant by harm exactly? Emotional or physical harm? When it comes to prostitution or the sex industry there are plenty of people who happily engage in those practices and continue get what they want out of the arrangement. Sexual gratification or monetary compensation.

Since both parties are satisfied with the arrangement and there is no obvious emotional or physical harm, what is the liberal basis for saying prostitution is unacceptable? Or what of the swinging couple or the Polygamous couple?

Is there a liberal Christian objection to those practices if all parties are emotionally and physically satisfied?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I think it is a false assumption to believe that most progressive Christians have a markedly different sexual ethic than more conservative Christians. As I look around my own congregation of what many would consider a progressive denomination, I largely see commitment to long-term mongomous relationships, chastity, and the like. Perhaps I am naive, but I think believing that all persons should be included in the life of the church is not the same as believing in the abandonment of a sexual ethic that has characterized the church for over 2,000 years.

How far do you extend this inclusion too? My question is with regards to the limits liberal Christians place on sexual activities. Are there any?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If you watch even what "conservative" Christians in America actually do, you see a lot of sexual hypocrisy going on.

Who besides our Lord and his Mother has been sexually pure?

Failure to live up to the rules or standard doesn't mean they are wrong.
 
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RDKirk

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How does this contradict what I said regarding what liberalism is? Certainty liberalism has shifted society away from Christian values would you agree?

Society has never had Christian values. That's why the Church is still here.
 
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RDKirk

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Who besides our Lord and his Mother has been sexually pure?

Failure to live up to the rules or standard doesn't mean they are wrong.

If the rules don't actually result in righteousness, that is a good reason to think they might, indeed, be wrong or if not wrong, being applied incorrectly.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If the rules don't actually result in righteousness, that is a good reason to think they might, indeed, be wrong or if not wrong, being applied incorrectly.

Since rules are always broken this would imply we need not have rules at all and live in pure anarchy. If people are adulterous and don't keep monogamy, do we then carve out exceptions for Polygamists or swingers?

Within a fallen world, a humankind constantly tempted to sin, rules aren't there to provide definitive results but guide us along the correct path. If this is not the case we should do away with the law in a purely antinomian fashion.


Society has never had Christian values. That's why the Church is still here.

No society ever has had Christian values? When the Emperors outlawed Paganism and abolished sacrifice to the gods I would call that a representation of Christian values being put in place and effectively forced. To the point where Paganism became a non-entity.

This is to say nothing of Medieval Europe or the Victorian Era. Hypocrisy and failures to live up to the Christian standard being taken into consideration.
 
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seeking.IAM

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How far do you extend this inclusion too? My question is with regards to the limits liberal Christians place on sexual activities. Are there any?

I think the problem in this discussion is that the way the question is asked seems to carry an underlying assumption that progressive Christians are a homogenous subset. They are not; therefore making generalizations is difficult.

As for your question about how far to extend inclusion, my opinion is that all should be welcome in the church to hear the Good News. All. And that has nothing to do with actions or attitudes.

As I said, most of the Christians in my progressive body are straight, married folk who I think embrace conventional Christian sexual ethic in how they conduct their own lives. The most you can say about them is they accept people different than them, which doesn't mean their own values about sex have change. Perhaps the question you really want to ask, and one seldom discussed IMHO, is how do LGBT-Q people who identify as Christians apply a sexual ethic? Do they believe in chastity before marriage, monogamy, etc? Isn't that what you really want to know? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm betting they are not a homogeneous group either that can be tucked into one tidy answer.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I think the problem in this discussion is that the way the question is asked seems to carry an underlying assumption that progressive Christians are a homogenous subset. They are not; therefore making generalizations is difficult.

As for your question about how far to extend inclusion, my opinion is that all should be welcome in the church to hear the Good News. All. And that has nothing to do with actions or attitudes.

As I said, most of the Christians in my progressive body are straight, married folk who I think embrace conventional Christian sexual ethic in how they conduct their own lives. The most you can say about them is they accept people different than them, which doesn't mean their own values about sex have change. Perhaps the question you really want to ask, and one seldom discussed IMHO, is how do LGBT-Q people who identify as Christians apply a sexual ethic? Do they believe in chastity before marriage, monogamy, etc? Isn't that what you really want to know? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm betting they are not a homogeneous group either that can be tucked into one tidy answer.

I don't really even have LGBT in mind for this discussion. I know the liberal and progressive view on that subject and it's been dealt with to death already. What I have in mind is what liberal Christians advocate believe and consider out of bounds for the Christian to do.

For instance, if in this acceptance of everyone, do you extend this to Polygamists or swingers? If not, why not? As far as I can tell, there is no liberal Christian objection to those sorts of arrangements that are all that strong. At most there are warnings about possible negative consequences but when those consequences don't apply, what then? How could there be any limiting of that behavior since it's legal consenting adults doing what they want freely? And if everyone is to be accepted, why not the Polygamist?

This can naturally extend to many types of sexual expression, even casual sex. Which I assume, so long as both parties are consenting adults you have no problem with, right?
 
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