Liberal abortion laws (infanticide)

JackRT

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Finally, there is nothing more ignorant than to blame abortion on poverty.

In a great many cases it is the simple truth. Call it ignorant if you wish, but that aside, would you like to see a decrease in the abortion rate or not? Or is it an all or nothing issue with you?
 
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redleghunter

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In a great many cases it is the simple truth. Call it ignorant if you wish, but that aside, would you like to see a decrease in the abortion rate or not? Or is it an all or nothing issue with you?
I believe it was your post that seemed to personify poverty.

The Christian Church is not ignorant to suffering and poverty. As a matter of fact I can’t find a church that does not provide or minister to the poor as a pillar to their ministry.

Therefore, that argument that people should keep their tongue until poverty is stricken from human history and activity is flawed and quite frankly insulting to not only Christians today but the communion of saints before us.

Jesus told us we will always have poor. He said nothing about providing a means to kill our own progeny to somehow reduce or eliminate poverty. There is nothing good, moral or merciful about killing our children in the womb.

The premeditated termination of a human being in the womb should never be a means to an end of poverty.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, Christians have been at the forefront of combating poverty since the beginning of the church and have been in the business of saving babies. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Does Canada have a higher rate of abortion? No! The abortion rate in the USA is 50% greater than in Canada

I'm not even sure where your getting your numbers from...

Canada has a population size of approximately 37.6 million.

The United States has a population size of 329.4 million.

Canada performed just under 100,000 abortions in 2019 or .265% of your population.

The United States performed 623,471 abortions at last reporting session (statistics for 2016) by the 48 states which report. I'll round down population size to 320 million to account for both the two states which don't report as well as to account for a 3 years past population and you have abortions at .195% of the population..

This means that Canada is actually providing more abortions when we adjust for population than does the United States at our respective last reportings..

So I'm not sure your argument has any validity, since no matter how much you play with the numbers Canada is still providing more abortions..
 
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JackRT

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I'm not even sure where your getting your numbers from...

Canada has a population size of approximately 37.6 million.

The United States has a population size of 329.4 million.

Canada performed just under 100,000 abortions in 2019 or .265% of your population.

The United States performed 623,471 abortions at last reporting session (statistics for 2016) by the 48 states which report. I'll round down population size to 320 million to account for both the two states which don't report as well as to account for a 3 years past population and you have abortions at .195% of the population..

This means that Canada is actually providing more abortions when we adjust for population than does the United States at our respective last reportings..

So I'm not sure your argument has any validity, since no matter how much you play with the numbers Canada is still providing more abortions..

Here's How Canada's Abortion Policies Actually Work
"Shocking, to have a procedure decided between a woman and her doctor and not, say, the government."
By Maija Kappler


Here's How Canada's Abortion Policies Work


Some Canadians don't seem to have a firm grasp on how abortion regulations function in our country. Given that a vote on whether or not to reopen the abortion debate was only narrowly defeated at the Conservative convention in Halifax this weekend, and that anti-abortion groups are celebrating, it seems like a topic we should all be more informed about.

Enter Dr. Jen Gunter, a practicing gynecologist and professional thorn in Gwyneth Paltrow's side, who took to Twitter to let us all know how abortion actually happens in our country.

Common misconceptions
As Gunter explained in her Twitter thread, late-term abortions — which anti-abortion activists sometimes refer to as "partial birth abortions" — are extremely rare. The most recent statistics available from the Canadian Institute for Health Information, from 2016, state that only 616 of the nearly 23,000 abortions performed in Canada that year took place after 20 weeks — approximately 2.7 per cent. As Gunter points out, this generally occurs only because of a direct threat to the mother's life or a very serious birth defect detected in the infant. Gunter says risk factors include anencephaly, where a baby is missing parts of the brain and skull and usually dies shortly after birth; and Trisomy 18, a genetic disorder that often involves heart defects and severe intellectual disability, which kills nearly 90 per cent of infants before their first birthday.

As a Canadian doctor practicing in the U.S., Gunter also points out that she often encounters Americans who assume Canada's relative lack of restriction means more abortions are performed here than in the States. In fact, the opposite is true. In 2014, the last year American data is available, there were 12.1 abortions performed per 1000 women aged 15-44 in the U.S.

In Canada that year, for every 1000 women aged 15-44, there were 8.03 abortions.

A brief history of abortion in Canada
Pre-1800: Abortion before four months, when fetal movements (called "quickening") began, is legal.

Early 1800s: As a result of a declining birth rate, regulations are implemented. (Regulations are handled provincially, not federally.) Abortion is first made illegal in New Brunswick in 1810, and by 1892, all forms of abortion and of contraception (!!!) are criminalized.

1892-1969: No Canadian woman has legal access to any means of birth control. This becomes a national crisis during the 1930s, when many families who could not afford to take care of their existing children faced crushing financial burdens of additional unplanned pregnancies. Several Canadian doctors including Dorothea Palmer, Elizabeth Bagshaw, Alvin Ratz Kaufman and Robert McCallum worked to provide contraceptive options to women, even under the threat of jail time.

1969: Under Pierre Trudeau's government, contraception is decriminalized and abortion becomes legal only under a very specific set of circumstances: a woman who doesn't want to carry through her pregnancy can only obtain an abortion if it is approved by a "therapeutic abortion committee," a tribunal made up of several doctors. Generally, permission is only given to women whose life or health is at risk.

1970: Pro-choice activists travel from Vancouver to Ottawa in an Oldsmobile, a Volkswagen bus, and a pick-up truck, known as the Abortion Caravan. When they arrive at Parliament Hill and politicians refuse to see them, they chain themselves to the parliamentary gallery in protest.

Later that year, Dr. Henry Morgentaler, who would become central in the abortion fight, has his Montreal office raided by police. He is charged with conspiracy to perform abortion.

1973: At his conspiracy trial, Morgentaler announces he has performed "between 6,000 and 7,000" abortions. He then goes through a messy three-year period of legal challenges and retrials. The Supreme Court rejects his appeal, but his charges are eventually dropped in Quebec. He serves 10 months in jail.

1975: A petition by anti-abortion groups with over one million signatures is delivered to the federal government in Ottawa.

1981: Manitoba cabinet minister and anti-abortion activist Joe Borowski announces his plan to fast for months to protest the enactment of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which he says will fail to protect the rights of a fetus. The charter is enacted the following year.

By this time, Borowski has been to prison four times for refusing to pay federal taxes due to the government's stance on abortion.

1982: The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is enacted. Many abortion-rights advocates argue that the pre-charter abortion restrictions violate women's new charter rights.

1983: A Gallup poll finds that 72 per cent of Canadians think the decision about having an abortion should be decided between a woman and her doctor, without government intervention.

That same year, anti-abortion politician Borowski uses the charter he had previously campaigned against to launch a new case, attempting to get the courts to declare the 1969 developments on abortion invalid. He argued that under the Charter, "fetuses have a constitutionally guaranteed right to life."

1983-4: Morgentaler opens an abortion clinic in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is raided twice and is promptly forced to closed. He then opens a clinic in Toronto, which is also raided and shut down. Staff reopen the clinic several minutes later.

1988: In the landmark "Morgentaler ruling," the Supreme Court of Canada strikes down the existing abortion law on the grounds that it violated women's Section 7 Charter rights to "life, liberty and security of person." The ruling states the existing law "clearly interferes with a woman's physical and bodily integrity."

1989: Joe Borowski's lawsuit about the rights of a fetus is declared moot, since the abortion law had already been struck down.

That same year, in two separate cases, the Supreme Court and an Ontario provincial court rules that a man has no legal right to prevent a woman from seeking an abortion.

Where are are today
Since the existing criminal law against abortion was struck down in 1988, abortion in Canada is treated like any other medical procedure — which is to say it's governed by medical standards and not by political will.

This has had a variety of consequences, not all of them obvious or intuitive.

For one thing, access to abortion has varied widely by region. Some provinces, such as Ontario and Quebec, have fairly high numbers per capita of hospitals or clinics that offer abortions, although people in big cities are far better served than people in rural areas.

In some other provinces, access is much more scarce, and many barriers still exist. In Nova Scotia, women needed a doctor's referral to obtain a surgical abortion until this past February. There are still long waiting times for the procedure, and the alternative, a medical abortion or "the abortion pill," is not covered by provincial healthcare. And there were no facilities that offered abortion anywhere on Prince Edward Island until 2017, following decades of activism by women in the province.

Anti-abortion activists like RightNow continue to campaign for political leaders who seek to limit abortion access. Abortion rights advocates, on the other hand, are looking to combat the anti-abortion "Pregnancy Crisis Centres," which often purport to be politically neutral but that actually try to discourage women against abortions, sometimes working with federal funding. According to the Alberta Pro-Choice Coalition, this has been happening in Canada as recently as last week.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Here's How Canada's Abortion Policies Actually Work
"Shocking, to have a procedure decided between a woman and her doctor and not, say, the government."
By Maija Kappler


Here's How Canada's Abortion Policies Work


Some Canadians don't seem to have a firm grasp on how abortion regulations function in our country. Given that a vote on whether or not to reopen the abortion debate was only narrowly defeated at the Conservative convention in Halifax this weekend, and that anti-abortion groups are celebrating, it seems like a topic we should all be more informed about.

Enter Dr. Jen Gunter, a practicing gynecologist and professional thorn in Gwyneth Paltrow's side, who took to Twitter to let us all know how abortion actually happens in our country.

Common misconceptions
As Gunter explained in her Twitter thread, late-term abortions — which anti-abortion activists sometimes refer to as "partial birth abortions" — are extremely rare. The most recent statistics available from the Canadian Institute for Health Information, from 2016, state that only 616 of the nearly 23,000 abortions performed in Canada that year took place after 20 weeks — approximately 2.7 per cent. As Gunter points out, this generally occurs only because of a direct threat to the mother's life or a very serious birth defect detected in the infant. Gunter says risk factors include anencephaly, where a baby is missing parts of the brain and skull and usually dies shortly after birth; and Trisomy 18, a genetic disorder that often involves heart defects and severe intellectual disability, which kills nearly 90 per cent of infants before their first birthday.

As a Canadian doctor practicing in the U.S., Gunter also points out that she often encounters Americans who assume Canada's relative lack of restriction means more abortions are performed here than in the States. In fact, the opposite is true. In 2014, the last year American data is available, there were 12.1 abortions performed per 1000 women aged 15-44 in the U.S.

In Canada that year, for every 1000 women aged 15-44, there were 8.03 abortions.

A brief history of abortion in Canada
Pre-1800: Abortion before four months, when fetal movements (called "quickening") began, is legal.

Early 1800s: As a result of a declining birth rate, regulations are implemented. (Regulations are handled provincially, not federally.) Abortion is first made illegal in New Brunswick in 1810, and by 1892, all forms of abortion and of contraception (!!!) are criminalized.

1892-1969: No Canadian woman has legal access to any means of birth control. This becomes a national crisis during the 1930s, when many families who could not afford to take care of their existing children faced crushing financial burdens of additional unplanned pregnancies. Several Canadian doctors including Dorothea Palmer, Elizabeth Bagshaw, Alvin Ratz Kaufman and Robert McCallum worked to provide contraceptive options to women, even under the threat of jail time.

1969: Under Pierre Trudeau's government, contraception is decriminalized and abortion becomes legal only under a very specific set of circumstances: a woman who doesn't want to carry through her pregnancy can only obtain an abortion if it is approved by a "therapeutic abortion committee," a tribunal made up of several doctors. Generally, permission is only given to women whose life or health is at risk.

1970: Pro-choice activists travel from Vancouver to Ottawa in an Oldsmobile, a Volkswagen bus, and a pick-up truck, known as the Abortion Caravan. When they arrive at Parliament Hill and politicians refuse to see them, they chain themselves to the parliamentary gallery in protest.

Later that year, Dr. Henry Morgentaler, who would become central in the abortion fight, has his Montreal office raided by police. He is charged with conspiracy to perform abortion.

1973: At his conspiracy trial, Morgentaler announces he has performed "between 6,000 and 7,000" abortions. He then goes through a messy three-year period of legal challenges and retrials. The Supreme Court rejects his appeal, but his charges are eventually dropped in Quebec. He serves 10 months in jail.

1975: A petition by anti-abortion groups with over one million signatures is delivered to the federal government in Ottawa.

1981: Manitoba cabinet minister and anti-abortion activist Joe Borowski announces his plan to fast for months to protest the enactment of The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which he says will fail to protect the rights of a fetus. The charter is enacted the following year.

By this time, Borowski has been to prison four times for refusing to pay federal taxes due to the government's stance on abortion.

1982: The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is enacted. Many abortion-rights advocates argue that the pre-charter abortion restrictions violate women's new charter rights.

1983: A Gallup poll finds that 72 per cent of Canadians think the decision about having an abortion should be decided between a woman and her doctor, without government intervention.

That same year, anti-abortion politician Borowski uses the charter he had previously campaigned against to launch a new case, attempting to get the courts to declare the 1969 developments on abortion invalid. He argued that under the Charter, "fetuses have a constitutionally guaranteed right to life."

1983-4: Morgentaler opens an abortion clinic in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is raided twice and is promptly forced to closed. He then opens a clinic in Toronto, which is also raided and shut down. Staff reopen the clinic several minutes later.

1988: In the landmark "Morgentaler ruling," the Supreme Court of Canada strikes down the existing abortion law on the grounds that it violated women's Section 7 Charter rights to "life, liberty and security of person." The ruling states the existing law "clearly interferes with a woman's physical and bodily integrity."

1989: Joe Borowski's lawsuit about the rights of a fetus is declared moot, since the abortion law had already been struck down.

That same year, in two separate cases, the Supreme Court and an Ontario provincial court rules that a man has no legal right to prevent a woman from seeking an abortion.

Where are are today
Since the existing criminal law against abortion was struck down in 1988, abortion in Canada is treated like any other medical procedure — which is to say it's governed by medical standards and not by political will.

This has had a variety of consequences, not all of them obvious or intuitive.

For one thing, access to abortion has varied widely by region. Some provinces, such as Ontario and Quebec, have fairly high numbers per capita of hospitals or clinics that offer abortions, although people in big cities are far better served than people in rural areas.

In some other provinces, access is much more scarce, and many barriers still exist. In Nova Scotia, women needed a doctor's referral to obtain a surgical abortion until this past February. There are still long waiting times for the procedure, and the alternative, a medical abortion or "the abortion pill," is not covered by provincial healthcare. And there were no facilities that offered abortion anywhere on Prince Edward Island until 2017, following decades of activism by women in the province.

Anti-abortion activists like RightNow continue to campaign for political leaders who seek to limit abortion access. Abortion rights advocates, on the other hand, are looking to combat the anti-abortion "Pregnancy Crisis Centres," which often purport to be politically neutral but that actually try to discourage women against abortions, sometimes working with federal funding. According to the Alberta Pro-Choice Coalition, this has been happening in Canada as recently as last week.


I don't need "educated" on Canadian policies.

I got the number of abortions in your country already, and compared that in relation to population size to the U.S. numbers.

Fairly simple to do. I did it. You made a claim based on numbers. I fact checked your claim and found it false.
 
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S.ilvio

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In a great many cases it is the simple truth. Call it ignorant if you wish, but that aside, would you like to see a decrease in the abortion rate or not? Or is it an all or nothing issue with you?
Is a lack of financial resources a legitimate argument..?
 
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Need answers

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The laws says different. I'm supposed to remind you of that.


Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,
There is no law against voting or debating politics. So we are ok with the authorities. What's your point exactly?
 
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Mark Dohle

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There is no law against voting or debating politics. So we are ok with the authorities. What's your point exactly?
That is one of the main problems. Men, not taking responsibility for their children, women left alone and often without a job, and pressure from family and friends. It is a real Gordian knot for sure.
gordianknot.jpg
 
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Quartermaine

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I'm not even sure where your getting your numbers from...

Canada has a population size of approximately 37.6 million.

The United States has a population size of 329.4 million.

Canada performed just under 100,000 abortions in 2019 or .265% of your population.

The United States performed 623,471 abortions at last reporting session (statistics for 2016) by the 48 states which report. I'll round down population size to 320 million to account for both the two states which don't report as well as to account for a 3 years past population and you have abortions at .195% of the population..

This means that Canada is actually providing more abortions when we adjust for population than does the United States at our respective last reportings..

So I'm not sure your argument has any validity, since no matter how much you play with the numbers Canada is still providing more abortions..
you are the one playing with numbers

make it simple and just use the numbers provided by the WHO
the abortion rate of the U.S. is 19.6 per 1000 women of child baring age
the abortion rate of Canada is 14.2 per 1000 women of child baring age

not the 50% less advertised but still significantly less

WHO notes that the numbers collected are of legal abortions, WHO notes an increasing trend of illegally acquired abortions in the US but has no ability to track or estimate their number
 
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Mountainmanbob

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The abortion debate comes down to whether or not one sees an unborn human being in the womb as morally equal to all other human beings.

A picture tells a thousand words.
That's a little person in there.
M-Bob
 
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creslaw

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How about what scripture says?


Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

2 Corinthians 2:9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Romans 13
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.


John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Luke 20:25
He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
The one who said
"Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme"
also said
"We must obey God rather than men".
 
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Yekcidmij

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The laws says different. I'm supposed to remind you of that.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Given your apparent view, it's interesting that Polycarp didn't worship the emperor. Was Polycarp wrong? What about slavery in the US? What about Jim Crow laws? Were these (and others) not instituted by rulers and authorities to which everyone should have been obedient and submissive?

It's rhetorical; Polycarp wasn't wrong and Paul's directive to Titus should be qualified by context and other factors. Obviously Paul is not instructing Titus to violate God's law or morality. Nor is he instructing Titus to be submissive and not participate in a federal system where laws are subject to deliberation, debate and change.

Everyone likes to quote from Titus 3:1 and Romans 13 when it's their preferred policy that's the rule of of the day. But when the shoe is on the other foot, they don't seem to be quoted in the same manner.
 
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BNR32FAN

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How about what scripture says?


Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Peter 2:18-20
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

1 Peter 2:13
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,

2 Corinthians 2:9
For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

Romans 13
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.


John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Luke 20:25
He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

When man’s laws contradict God’s laws, God’s laws prevail.
 
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SkyWriting

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When man’s laws contradict God’s laws, God’s laws prevail.

God says - to follow Mans laws. As Jesus did, resulting in us having a savior.
It was a good lesson for us.
 
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SkyWriting

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Everyone likes to quote from Titus 3:1 and Romans 13 when it's their preferred policy that's the rule of of the day. But when the shoe is on the other foot, they don't seem to be quoted in the same manner.

The shoes and foots don't matter to me.
It was scripture that changed my mind, not shoes.
I don't know what everyone says but Romans 13 has some additional support:

Exodus 22:28
1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38
 
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BNR32FAN

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God says - to follow Mans laws. As Jesus did, resulting in us having a savior.
It was a good lesson for us.

Jesus didn’t keep man’s laws, He healed on the Sabbath, He ransacked the marketplace in the temple, He ridiculed and defied the Pharisees which was the Jewish government and all of this took place when man’s laws were in contradiction to God’s laws. Rehab lied to the Canaanite guards to protect the Israelite spies and was counted righteous for doing so. David defied Saul, Daniel worshipped God when the law forbid it, Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego refused to worship the statue of Nebuchadnezzar when the law required them to do so. Transgression against man’s law is not always transgression against God.
 
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JackRT

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He ridiculed and defied the Pharisees which was the Jewish government

Not so. Judea was under Roman government and occupation although they permitted a limited authority to the High Priesthood. The High Priest and his inner circle were all Sadducees. The Sanhedrin was a sort of "supreme court". It was chaired by the HP but was controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the HP at nearly every turn. In fact the HP was perhaps the most hated person in Judea because he was regarded as a Roman collaborator.
Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

So, in conclusion, while the Pharisees were a strong movement within Judaism, they certainly were not the Jewish government.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not so. Judea was under Roman government and occupation although they permitted a limited authority to the High Priesthood. The High Priest and his inner circle were all Sadducees. The Sanhedrin was a sort of "supreme court". It was chaired by the HP but was controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the HP at nearly every turn. In fact the HP was perhaps the most hated person in Judea because he was regarded as a Roman collaborator.
Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

So, in conclusion, while the Pharisees were a strong movement within Judaism, they certainly were not the Jewish government.

They were the Jewish government under the Roman jurisdiction. The Sanhedrin handled many political and criminal matters within Judea while under Roman control. It’s like saying the Texas judicial system is not a form of government because it’s under the jurisdiction of the United States when Texas laws are just as binding as federal law.
 
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JackRT

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The Sanhedrin handled many political and criminal matters within Judea while under Roman control

The Romans permitted the Sanhedrin to judge and enforce religious law only. In AD 39 the Romans terminated their right to execute for religious crimes like adultery and blasphemy. The Romans and only the Romans judged and enforced political and criminal matters. For example, the High Priest knew that claiming to be the messiah was a political crime and not a blasphemy. For that reason he did not convene the Sanhedrin and went straight to the Romans to get Jesus executed.
 
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