Lev 20:13 and Homosexuality

Outspoken

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"Every Christian who lived between the death of Christ and the 1500's simply ignored what the Bible says"?

wrong again :) if they said homosexuality is right, THEN they ignored what the bible says.

As for slavery, yup, those that accepted it ignored what the bible said. There were individuals that practiced it correctly in terms of indentured serventhood, which is acceptable just like having a butler or maid, etc... is now a days.
 
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seebs

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But during those 1500 years, they thought slavery in general, the outright ownership of a human, was perfectly acceptable. If there were exceptions, they left no written records anyone has ever cited.

I personally find it easier to believe that humans, being fallible, can be just plain wrong, not because they *ignore* the Bible, but because it is subject to interpretation.
 
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Outspoken

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"But during those 1500 years, they thought slavery in general, the outright ownership of a human, was perfectly acceptable."

I would disagree 1. you're generalizing, not all people thought that 2. so what? people though stranger things then that, but that doesn't make them right. 3. its simple, they were wrong according to the text and thus they were ignoring it. Seebs, something you seem to forget is humans are ...well human, desires over take common sense and morals. they wanted cheap labor and a sence of power, thus slavery. it has NOTHING to do with intepretation, for you have to twist the bible around to get a affirmative slavery postion.
 
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seebs

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I have often struggled with the apparent support for slavery; in the end, I have been forced to grant that the Bible is *not* kidding when it says that people may derive false beliefs from the Bible, and should be very, very, cautious.
 
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Starscream

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Originally posted by Outspoken
"Every Christian who lived between the death of Christ and the 1500's simply ignored what the Bible says"?

wrong again :) if they said homosexuality is right, THEN they ignored what the bible says.

As for slavery, yup, those that accepted it ignored what the bible said. There were individuals that practiced it correctly in terms of indentured serventhood, which is acceptable just like having a butler or maid, etc... is now a days.

So I can beat the living **** out of my bulter and as long he lives for at least 3 days after the beating I'm in the clear?
 
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Starscream

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Originally posted by seebs
But during those 1500 years, they thought slavery in general, the outright ownership of a human, was perfectly acceptable. If there were exceptions, they left no written records anyone has ever cited.

I personally find it easier to believe that humans, being fallible, can be just plain wrong, not because they *ignore* the Bible, but because it is subject to interpretation.

I think what is spefically telling is the approach taken in these debates:

seebs:  I may be wrong, but I think ...

Outspoken:  I cannot be wrong, and I know ...

 

If there is a truth to be found then who do you suppose has a better chance of finding it?

 
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Starscream
So I can beat the living **** out of my bulter and as long he lives for at least 3 days after the beating I'm in the clear?

I just love how the Bible makes the distinction between "indentured servitude" and "permanent slavery" quite clear, *AND* says that you must only make permanent slaves of outsiders, or of Hebrews who can be persuaded to remain in your service... Meaning "yes, permanent slavery is acceptable".
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Starscream
I think what is spefically telling is the approach taken in these debates:

seebs:  I may be wrong, but I think ...

Outspoken:  I cannot be wrong, and I know ...

 

If there is a truth to be found then who do you suppose has a better chance of finding it?

I would hope I do - but at the same time, I also have a better chance of being led away from it, if I happen to start there.

The question is... How likely is it that my first impression is the truth? My guess is "not all that likely". Furthermore, I believe that truth will be *distinct* from falsehood; if I compare them honestly, I cannot believe that falsehood is just as likely to seem reasonable as truth.

So... I guess, Outspoken is showing faith that God will lead him to the truth on the first try, and I'm showing faith that God will lead me towards the truth, no matter how hard it is for me to understand it at first. I guess I'm a lot less confident than he is.
 
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Starscream

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Originally posted by seebs
I would hope I do - but at the same time, I also have a better chance of being led away from it, if I happen to start there.

The question is... How likely is it that my first impression is the truth? My guess is "not all that likely". Furthermore, I believe that truth will be *distinct* from falsehood; if I compare them honestly, I cannot believe that falsehood is just as likely to seem reasonable as truth.

So... I guess, Outspoken is showing faith that God will lead him to the truth on the first try, and I'm showing faith that God will lead me towards the truth, no matter how hard it is for me to understand it at first. I guess I'm a lot less confident than he is.

You're a fellow coder, correct?  How often do your programs run successfully the first time?  How successful a programmer would you be if you were convinced that your code contained no bugs?

It has been my experience, both in my profession and in my personal life, that understanding your own potential to make errors is the only way to go.

I get suspicious when I'm in the company of people that cannot even entertain the possibility that they may be wrong or mistaken about something.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Starscream
You're a fellow coder, correct?  How often do your programs run successfully the first time?  How successful a programmer would you be if you were convinced that your code contained no bugs?

I think my current record is about a 90-line program that ran as planned the first time. :)

Hey, I'm not arguing that I think my strategy is the right one; I'm just pointing out that there is a pretty well-understood class of cases where I will be wrong more often than people who are more resistant to change. This is, itself, necessary for my strategy to work; I must do my best to identify all sources of error, including the basic hermeneutic itself.


It has been my experience, both in my profession and in my personal life, that understanding your own potential to make errors is the only way to go.

I get suspicious when I'm in the company of people that cannot even entertain the possibility that they may be wrong or mistaken about something.

I try not to entertain possibilities, they may or may not get really drunk and disruptive. <-- pun.
 
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Outspoken

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"To use the Bible to justify slavery or to condemn homosexuality is exactly the same. It is using an ancient document to justify your worldview and prejudices.
"
No, its not. Actually you do have a point. Slavery and homosexuality are both wrong :)

Now saying this let me show you how people (accepting homosexuality) would interpret this. " Hey, he says that homosexuality is okay look"..and then they would quote you do have a point and slightly change the wording in the second sentence to fit their view. That's the ONLY way you can get the bible to say homosexuality is okay, you have to twist it.


"I think what is spefically telling is the approach taken in these debates:

seebs: I may be wrong, but I think ...

Outspoken: I cannot be wrong, and I know ..."

Exactly, I know I'm right. If the bible is wrong, then I'm wrong, I fully admit that. :) I think the bible is right, therefore I'm right on this issue.



"You're a fellow coder, correct? How often do your programs run successfully the first time?"

Reading text plainly and looking at context is quite different then coding. Oh, and for the record, I changed my view to homosexuality is wrong, I didn't start that way. God lead me to the truth, thanks. So please don't strawman. This is a no strawman zone :)
 
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