Let's Talk About Hell (2)

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LutheranMafia

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Well, they do say something about destruction:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy bothsoul and body in hell.
I was talking about the "outer darkness" verses. As to destroying the soul, the spirit is conspicuously absent from the verse.
 
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ghendricks63

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Well, they say nothing about destruction. And there are verses that talk about eternal torment.

And yet other verses do talk of destruction. You can't exclude other verses to make one point and seek to include them in the next breath to make a different point. I believe we must look at the totality of scripture to try to understand what verses like these mean.

As to the question of eternity...there are other verses that have translated the word aion as eternity...but that would place such a translation in conflict with the verses I have listed before that clearly indicate God's wrath does NOT last forever. I do not believe that our use of the word forever is correct in light of the full body of scripture.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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I think Origen made the perfect case for the eventual salvation of all in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:

I Corinthians 15:25-28:
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If therefore the subjection by which the Son is said to be subjected to the Father is taken as good and salutary, it is a sure and logical consequence that the subjection of his enemies which is said to happen to the Son God should also be salutary and useful; so that, just as when the Son is said to be subjected to the Father the perfect restoration of the entire creation is announced, so when his enemies are said to be subjected the Son of God we are to understand this to involve the salvation of those subjected and the restoration of those that have been lost.

But this subjection will be accomplished through certain means and courses of discipline and periods of time; that is, the whole world will not be subjected to God by pressure of some necessity that compels it into subjection, nor by the use of force, but by word, by reason, by teaching, by exhortation to better things, by the best methods of education, and also by such merited and appropriate threatenings are just laid over the heads of those who contemptuously neglect to care for their own salvation and spiritual advantage, and spiritual health.
__________________
 
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ghendricks63

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Hear the Word of the Lord about the false doctrine of hell! The only punishment for the wicked is "eternal death" in the lake of fire!

Proclaim NOT the Hell of the Church of Men...In Their Word is No Mercy Found, Only the Makings of Satan

1/14/06 From God The Father -
A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


Thus says The Lord: Listen, all you churches of men!... Shall I, even I, torment My beloved, they who are tormented continually by he who is, and has, torment in his vesture?!... Satan is the tormentor!... Unknowingly, you My children, by your own mouths have called your God, satan!


Repent therefore, and mend your ways!
Forsake all your corrupt and evil teachings!...

Become, again, a child of God, and learn to walk uprightly in Me,
Leading others into love, by love, not fear.


The second death is that grave, from which one shall not be raised, nor awakened, for they have been cast out... Abiding in outer darkness, forever separated from God and their part in life. These know not anything, forevermore returning to that which they were formed from. This is the eternal state of My punishment for those who have chosen death, by their forsaking of My Gift wherein is life everlasting.
So then, they under condemnation are dead... In no way are they part of the living, nor are they living in torment. Their inheritance is lost, they have been blotted out... A broken vessel of dishonor, received by the earth once again.


Stop blaspheming your God!...

Have greater understanding of My mercies, which endure forever...
My Son did sleep in the lower parts of the earth, His tomb, for three days and three nights...
By no means did He descend into the evils of man’s imaginings.


He is The Pure Light!...
Never has He had any part in darkness...
He shall destroy it utterly!

HE IS RISEN!

And all those, who follow and believe in Him,
Shall also rise and live, meeting Him in the air...

Forever shall they be with their Lord and their God,
Where all shall find mercy and love.

Amen.

Cult alert.

This is from the trumpet call of god...a group believing they have a new revelation that is even more sacred than what is in the bible.

Please join me in reporting this post to the moderators.
 
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Soulgazer

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Cults have several things in common:
The first set of criteria comes from the group' use of a specific set of mind control tactics.
A coercive persuasion program is a behavioral change technology applied to cause the "learning" and "adoption" of a set of behaviors or an ideology under certain conditions. It is distinguished from other forms of benign social learning or peaceful persuasion by the conditions under which it is conducted and by the techniques of environmental and interpersonal manipulation employed to suppress particular behaviors and to train others. Over time, coercive persuasion, a psychological force akin in some ways to our legal concepts of undue influence, can be even MORE effective than pain, torture, drugs, and use of physical force and legal threats.

The second set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems

1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. "Come out and be separate!"

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the
group through a profound encounter / experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group.

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or
personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed."

4. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders.

5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.

6. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract
and narrow parameters of the group's doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a "black and white" mentality. Loaded terms and clichés prejudice thinking.

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine.

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.

I would just like everyone to be safe out there; Some cults have been around for decades, and pose as respectable religious institutions.

The internet and google search are a wonderful thing. Remember, all you have to do is insert the NAME of the organization along with the word "CULT".

Always, always, always do your homework. Take accusations against these institutions seriously, and if you are not a member, stay away. If you are a member, get out.


Remember, cults are usually populated with sincere people who are genuinely trying to do the right thing.

modify_inline.gif

« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 09:48 GMT-8 by Soulgazer »
From our church forum
 
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Soulgazer

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Have you looked into this group? I have. They are a cult even by your definition...though the fact they have their own scriptures they hold in higher regard than the bible should be enough all by itself.
I have not yet. Any organization that says they are the only "TRUE" teaching qualifies as a cult, and are usually under a national cult watch.

Cults are a very real danger to individual freedom(not to mention sanity), and we take any accusation very seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E&feature=player_embedded
 
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Lysimachus

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[*]Matthew 8:12
but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
[*]Matthew 22:13
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

[*]Matthew 25:30
"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So in the outer darkness there is not destruction, but eternal anguish that gets ever worse.

With all due respect brother, I believe you are literalizing the phrase "outer darkness". It's nothing more than a metaphor. Jesus is trying to use a symbolic expression that will help grasp the attention of His listeners. "Outer Darkness" is nothing more than expression to mean the place people will go who do not obtain salvation. When you die, everything will be "dark". You will see nothing. When you fall asleep, you see black. You see nothing. There is no consciousness or existence.

This illustration will meet its acme at the end of the millennium, when all the wicked are outside the New Jerusalem, and all the saints are inside. All the wicked will be in "outer darkness"...the place of death, and where there is no salvation.

Jesus said: "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (Luke 1:79)

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness." (Luke 11:35)

Are we to literalize these expressions Jesus is using to mean literal light and literal darkness? Of course not! They are metaphors to represent those who are filled with God's Spirit and truth, vs. those who are living in sin. Darkness has many meanings to it, but it is not to be taken literalistically to mean a literal place of darkness where the wicked go. If you are outside the City of New Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium after coming up in the Second Resurrection, then you will find yourself in "outer darkness".

This is reality, not science fiction. God is a realistic God.

Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, but not the the destruction of the spirit:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So I think that the spirit of the damned is sent to the outer darkness where it never completely ceases to exist but instead accelerates towards infinity where it becomes ever more ripped appart and tenuous.

If it is true that the spirit is not destroyed, then this means wicked people are in heaven. Concerning all humans:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)

You do realize that this is referring to all men, right? Both wicked and righteous? So according to this verse, even the spirits of wicked men return back to God who gave it. Not go into outer darkness.

But brother, concerning a more thorough understanding of Matthew 10:27, please pay close attention:

Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.

The Hebrew word “psuche” has been translated “soul” in this text, but in forty other texts it has been translated “life.” For example, Jesus said, “Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it.” Matthew 16:25. Obviously, “psuche” could not mean soul in this instance, or people could be said to lose their soul for Christ’s sake. It is properly translated “life.”

But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word “life” instead of “soul” and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life. Here is proof in the words of Jesus:

“And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.” Luke 12:4, 5.

In other words, the word “soul” here means not only life, but also eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say “kills the soul.” Instead, he says, “cast into hell.” They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but also their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

If you think about this, suddenly the mysteries of the Bible begin to spring forth in your soul, and I promise you brother, you will be set free from the confusions that are sourced in Babylon and handed down through paganized Christianity. Once you are set free from this "mode of thinking" (concerning the spurious ideas of spirits flying around independently of bodies), you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free! :)
 
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ghendricks63

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I'm not sure where you are getting your information but the Bible is the Word the Lord as well as ANYTHING the Lord speaks out of His Mouth. ...

The Lord has spoken to this generation. ...

Read this and be warned though if you deny the Word of the Lord. ...

Does the Lord still send Prophets today? Yes read the verses...

“Behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.” – Matthew 23:34

Thy Word Has Gone Forth, Yet Who Has Embraced it? Who Has Cupped Their Ears to Listen?... Says The Lord

4/18/10 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord: If you embrace the Bible, yet reject the Letters, you deny the Word of The Lord; and if you embrace the Letters, yet reject the Bible, you deny the Word of The Lord... For I am The Author and Finisher thereof.

Indeed, there is nothing new under the sun... For as My people refused Me in all times past, with a stiff arm and stretched out neck, with their foreheads and hearts hardened, so it is this day. For all these, called by Christ’s name, are very rebellious houses... Houses, full of blind guides speaking to the deaf, endeavoring to teach the dumb the songs of men... Says The Lord.

I have selected key references from the previous post so the transition from scripture to herasy may be clear. From the actual bible quote in Matthew 23 to the words of their own modern day prophet.

"The letters" they quote from there forward is their own revelations of their prophet. Did you all notice how they placed them on equal footing with the Christian bible with the nonsense about rejecting them means rejecting the bible?

Threats and gloom and doom prophecies of destruction is pretty much the whole of these "letters". Please to all who may be lead to their website or to their teaching take heed. This group is NOT CHRISTIAN!! "The letters" are the delusional ramblings of their false prophet who does not speak for God!!!
 
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Soulgazer

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Then I questioned him: "Lord how may we prophesy to those who ask us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us and who look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
The Lord said to me: "When you come to know what 'head' is, and that prophecy issues from the head, then understand what is the meaning of 'Its head was removed'. I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive. But it is you who were to me a parable in parables and what is apparent in what are open.~Secret James


Good enough for me.
 
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Timothew

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Then I questioned him: "Lord how may we prophesy to those who ask us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us and who look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
The Lord said to me: "When you come to know what 'head' is, and that prophecy issues from the head, then understand what is the meaning of 'Its head was removed'. I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive. But it is you who were to me a parable in parables and what is apparent in what are open.~Secret James


Good enough for me.
With Gnosis, just when you think you might understand, you read something and go "What? Huh?"
I tend to be literal whenever I can.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Is that referencing the dichotomy of heart vs head maybe? The head has been cut off. Now prophecy comes from the heart?
Interesting
Isaiah mentions both head and tail :)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV
"tail"
occurs 15 times in 14 verses in the NKJV

NKJV) Isaiah 9:1414 Therefore the LORD will cut off head and tail from Israel, Palm branch and bulrush in one day.
15 The elder and honorable, he [is] the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he [is] the tail.

Last time used in Bible:

NKJV) Revelation 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.............


Edit to add:

Reve 19:20 and is caught the wild-beast and with it the false-prophet, the one doing the signs before of it in which he deceives the ones getting the mark of the wild-beast and the ones worshipping to the image of it,
living were cast the two into the lake of the fire, the one burning in sulphur.
[2 Peter 2:1/Reve 16:13]
 
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createdtoworship

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If it is true that the spirit is not destroyed, then this means wicked people are in heaven. Concerning all humans:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)

You do realize that this is referring to all men, right? Both wicked and righteous? So according to this verse, even the spirits of wicked men return back to God who gave it. Not go into outer darkness.

But brother, concerning a more thorough understanding of Matthew 10:27, please pay close attention:

Matthew 10:28: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Jesus clearly teaches in this text that the soul is not naturally immortal. It can and will be destroyed in hell. But what does He mean about killing the body, but not the soul? Is it possible for the soul to exist apart from the body? Some say it is, but the Bible indicates otherwise.

The Hebrew word “psuche” has been translated “soul” in this text, but in forty other texts it has been translated “life.” For example, Jesus said, “Whosoever will lose his life [psuche] for my sake shall find it.” Matthew 16:25. Obviously, “psuche” could not mean soul in this instance, or people could be said to lose their soul for Christ’s sake. It is properly translated “life.”

But what of Matthew 10:28? Put in the word “life” instead of “soul” and the text makes perfect sense in its consistency with the rest of the Bible. The contrast is between one who can take the physical life, and He who can take away eternal life. Here is proof in the words of Jesus:

“And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hellLuke 12:4, 5.

In other words, the word “soul” here means not only life, but also eternal life. Notice that Luke says everything just like Matthew except that he does not say “kills the soul.” Instead, he says, “cast into hell.” They mean the same thing. Men can only kill the body and take away the physical life. God will cast into hell and take away eternal life. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in that fire, but also their lives will be snuffed out for all eternity.

If you think about this, suddenly the mysteries of the Bible begin to spring forth in your soul, and I promise you brother, you will be set free from the confusions that are sourced in Babylon and handed down through paganized Christianity. Once you are set free from this "mode of thinking" (concerning the spurious ideas of spirits flying around independently of bodies), you will find the truth, and the truth will set you free! :)

spirit means breath of life in many occasions in the old testament. Not the Holy Ghost, as it had not come down at pentacost yet. Although God's spirit rested with men in other forms. We could not have the Holy Spirit before pentacost.
 
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ghendricks63

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If it is true that the spirit is not destroyed, then this means wicked people are in heaven. Concerning all humans:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)

You do realize that this is referring to all men, right? Both wicked and righteous? So according to this verse, even the spirits of wicked men return back to God who gave it. Not go into outer darkness.

I would like to comment on just this point.

Since we believe all face judgment it is not correct that this verse implies the wicked are simply granted entrance into heaven. In Spirit ALL shall return to and stand before God.

Also this is one of the reasons why I believe the doctrine of universal reconciliation is more scripturally accurate than say simple universalism or annihilation. I believe all souls will eventually end up united with God for eternity through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. But I also believe judgment is real and whatever form it will take, it will accomplish God's redemptive purpose and the souls of the wicked will be purified. Whether you believe the souls of the wicked go into an outer darkness or a literal firery pit of hell, I believe it will be temporary and will be a means by which Christ will save all mankind as He promised.
 
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Lysimachus

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I would like to comment on just this point.

Since we believe all face judgment it is not correct that this verse implies the wicked are simply granted entrance into heaven. In Spirit ALL shall return to and stand before God.

Also this is one of the reasons why I believe the doctrine of universal reconciliation is more scripturally accurate than say simple universalism or annihilation. I believe all souls will eventually end up united with God for eternity through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. But I also believe judgment is real and whatever form it will take, it will accomplish God's redemptive purpose and the souls of the wicked will be purified. Whether you believe the souls of the wicked go into an outer darkness or a literal firery pit of hell, I believe it will be temporary and will be a means by which Christ will save all mankind as He promised.

Ok, now you just went off the deep end. Am I reading your post right in that you are saying the wicked will eventually be saved?

If there was ever a doctrine to appeal to our sinful inclinations and desires, this one is truly chief. While you act as though you deny universalism, you still are essentially admitting that you believe in form of universalism.
 
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ghendricks63

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Ok, now you just went off the deep end. Am I reading your post right in that you are saying the wicked will eventually be saved?

If there was ever a doctrine to appeal to our sinful inclinations and desires, this one is truly chief. While you act as though you deny universalism, you still are essentially admitting that you believe in form of universalism.

Save the pretention of shock...are you saying this is the first time you have ever heard of the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation? You need to read up a little more. This was by far the dominant Christian view for the first 400 years of church history and is very much discussed in Christian circles today.

Your characterization of it being a doctrine to appeal to the sinful inclinations and desires rediculously naieve. To simply attack the character of those of us who embrace the power of the cross to save all men (eventually) is both disrespectful and a fallacious ad hominem tactic.
 
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Lysimachus

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Save the pretention of shock...are you saying this is the first time you have ever heard of the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation? You need to read up a little more. This was by far the dominant Christian view for the first 400 years of church history and is very much discussed in Christian circles today.

Your characterization of it being a doctrine to appeal to the sinful inclinations and desires rediculously naieve. To simply attack the character of those of us who embrace the power of the cross to save all men (eventually) is both disrespectful and a fallacious ad hominem tactic.

I have already made up my mind a long time ago, that I will not waste my time debating with anyone who dares even suggest, or hints, that all the wicked will be saved. Such consciences have been seared, and it will profit nothing.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is]the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Matthew 7:13-15)

"A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:10,11)

Therefore, do not expect me to respond to your next post unless you can accept the plain utterance of Matthew 7:13-15, that it truly does mean what it says, and confess that the majority of people will be lost, and few will be saved. And there is no more hope for those who have died in their sins.
 
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