Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[createdtoworship]

1. I do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only saints that will be returning with Christ are those Old Testament saints who were resurrected and went to heaven at Christ's ascension in 31 A.D. But they went to heaven in bodily form, not disincarnated spirits.

2. The Biblical word for "saints" has also been used for "angels" (Deut 33:2; 1 Thess 3:13)

3. The white horses are symbolic of purity. Nobody will be physically/literally riding on horses at the Second Coming. The only place horses are mentioned in connection with the Second Coming is in Revelation, but nowhere does Jesus in any of the gospel accounts mention horses at the Second Coming. Only clouds, a trumpet, and angels.

4. The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium. The Second Coming is when the rapture occurs, leaving the earth void and desolate for 1000 years. At the end of the millennium, Christ and all the saints return back to the earth in the New Jerusalem, to hold the judgment of the wicked, and the saints will reign with Christ on the earth for ever and ever.

I believe in "heavenly premillennialism". The earth is left void and desolate, save for Satan and his demonic hosts who are trapped on this "abussos" for 1000 years.

The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium?

I think you have that backwards?

 

[Lysimachus]

The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium?

I think you have that backwards?

Hehe, I knew we'd run into a bottle-neck here.

Yes, it would require a large study and separate thread all together.

Instead of derailing this thread away from the topic of hell-fire, I'll postpone our discussion on the millennium for another time (I plan to create a thread on it). In the meantime, I'll give you a couple links for you to get your feet wet on my interpretation of the millennium. I subscribe to the Adventist construct of the millennium, known as "heavenly premillennialism". In other words, the millennial reign (which is a literal time period) is in heaven, not on earth.

You can read more about it in the following links:

1. The 1000 Year Millennium Reign - Millennial Reign of Christ (it is recommended you read this link before any of the following)

2. The Bible 1000 Year Millennium Reign of Christ

3. http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/1000yearmillennium.html

Here is a "simple" summary video of the Millennium:

YouTube - Storacle #12 - Resting the Land

Here is a more exegetical video:

235 - The Long Awaited Millennium - Amazing Discoveries TV

Even if you disagree, at least you'll get an understanding for the Adventist - Historicist eschatological millennial construct.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hehe, I knew we'd run into a bottle-neck here.

Yes, it would require a large study and separate thread all together.

Instead of derailing this thread away from the topic of hell-fire, I'll postpone our discussion on the millennium for another time (I plan to create a thread on it). In the meantime, I'll give you a couple links for you to get your feet wet on my interpretation of the millennium. I subscribe to the Adventist construct of the millennium, known as "heavenly premillennialism". In other words, the millennial reign (which is a literal time period) is in heaven, not on earth.

You can read more about it in the following links:

1. The 1000 Year Millennium Reign - Millennial Reign of Christ (it is recommended you read this link before any of the following)

2. The Bible 1000 Year Millennium Reign of Christ

3. The 1000 Year Millennium Reign - FAQ's

Here is a "simple" summary video of the Millennium:

YouTube - Storacle #12 - Resting the Land

Here is a more exegetical video:

235 - The Long Awaited Millennium - Amazing Discoveries TV

Even if you disagree, at least you'll get an understanding for the Adventist - Historicist eschatological millennial construct.

so lions do go to heaven in your view? The lion will lie with the lamb.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hehe, I knew we'd run into a bottle-neck here.

Yes, it would require a large study and separate thread all together.

Instead of derailing this thread away from the topic of hell-fire, I'll postpone our discussion on the millennium for another time (I plan to create a thread on it). In the meantime, I'll give you a couple links for you to get your feet wet on my interpretation of the millennium. I subscribe to the Adventist construct of the millennium, known as "heavenly premillennialism". In other words, the millennial reign (which is a literal time period) is in heaven, not on earth.

You can read more about it in the following links:

1. The 1000 Year Millennium Reign - Millennial Reign of Christ (it is recommended you read this link before any of the following)

2. The Bible 1000 Year Millennium Reign of Christ

3. The 1000 Year Millennium Reign - FAQ's

Here is a "simple" summary video of the Millennium:

YouTube - Storacle #12 - Resting the Land

Here is a more exegetical video:

235 - The Long Awaited Millennium - Amazing Discoveries TV

Even if you disagree, at least you'll get an understanding for the Adventist - Historicist eschatological millennial construct.

there are way too many verses regarding a litteral millenium to spiritualize

http://www.raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/13-millennial.gif

 

[createdtoworship]

so lions do go to heaven in your view? The lion will lie with the lamb.

there are way too many verses regarding a earthly millennium to spiritualize

http://www.raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/13-millennial.gif

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" (Isa. 2:4). "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins" (Isa. 11:4, 5). "Behold, the day is come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, I will cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness. For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel" (Jer. 33:14-17). "And in that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely "(Hos. 2:18).

JERUSALEM DURING THE MILLENIUM WILL BE CALLED “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” - The second aspect of this fulfillment will be the restoration of Jerusalem as God’s dwelling place. The city that was about to be destroyed by Babylon (Jer. 33:4-5) will someday live in safety. Though this verse is also found in 23:6, Jeremiah pictured the safety of Israel and Judah through the ministry of the Messiah who was called “The Lord Our Righteousness.” However, by changing “Israel” to “Jerusalem” and by changing the preposition “he” to “it” (lit., to her”) Jeremiah made the title, The LORD Our Righteousness apply to the city of Jerusalem instead of to the Messiah. The city will take on the same characteristics as the Lord who will dwell within her (Ezek. 48:35).

4. Immanuel's kingdom will be established by the power of the returning King.

"That then the Lord will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee" (Deut. 30:3). "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice" (Ps. 50:3-5). "For he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth" (Ps. 96:13). "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord, and many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation" (Zech. 2:10-12). "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years" (Mal. 3:1-4).

Two additional fasts are included ….these are regarding Jerusalem and are not to be honored in the millennium. Feasts will be declared instead of fasts. This is quite a turn around, it’s a holiday instead of a work day. I believe there to be conversion in the millennial reign towards the Jewish God. As a result of Israel’s wisdom in following the Lord many nations will flock to her to worship her God. During the millennium the church is in heaven and this is simply a Jewish restoration on earth to how things should have been if Israel did the right thing. It’s a play of sorts. An attraction, and a skit of truth to bring even more nations toward the Jewish God from a different angle (than grace would have). This is not a church; it is an old covenant thing. However, I believe that God will bless Jews with the ability to rule and this ability will cause all nations to glean from them what they can, this wisdom and or other blessings will cause nations to seek God. (many ethnicities and languages will go to synagogue-Zech 8: 23). No Gospel is noted as being proclaimed in this age, the gospel of the kingdom was reinitiated during the tribulation. And the everlasting Gospel was proclaimed from the 2nd heaven just prior to the coming of Christ. However there is no mention of salvation or of those being born again or of a Gospel message being preached. Our age is the age that is out of place, not the kingdom age. There is no mystery with kingdom preaching or the manifested kingdom reign. If salvation exists in the millennium it will be only through the ministry of the Jewish take on the Messiah and Her light to the nations. (a silent witness). But there is possibly a second theory, that there is no salvation during the millennium. I do not see this trend though. This will probably be a primitive culture again (because of Armageddon) for the Jews to shine this brightly (But I am unsure). The beatitudes are a very good rule book for modern society but even more so for primitive societies without human resources (or diplomacy). In a post Armageddon state the world will be in need of some house keeping, there is nothing better than the Jewish sanitation laws, religious up keeping and festivals. I hope you like unleavened bread! The tribulation is a judgment specifically for the nation of Israel (to spank her prior to the great white judgment) while the judgment of nations is for gentiles that go against Israel (as a nation.) Because it’s a national thing the judgment is for nations not for the individual. Judgments 2 and 5 are for individuals. The first (2) is the MERCY SEAT or Judgment seat of Christ (for rewards); the second (5) is THE GREAT WHITE THRONE and is for the wicked dead only to reveal why they are in fact (hell bound) and then bind them eternally in Gehennah (which is the lake of fire.)

What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?
The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
Those judged at the judgment of nations are bound according to nationality not individual religion (ISRAEL TEST). Those that are alive and remain after the rapture should make sure they are pro Israel that’s for certain. This makes the total number of nations in blessing in the millennium go down or up significantly based on (ISRAEL TEST at the throne of His Glory). Christ said through the prophet Joel: I will “plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel” (Joel 3:1-2). This ISRAEL TEST happens somewhere in the valley of Jehoshaphat. Just prior to the judgment of nations Jesus has shot the dragon down out of the sky and is booked to the bottomless pit for a millennium to allow a peaceful earth “and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.” (Revelation 20:3)

 

[Lysimachus]

I wasn't going to get into this now, but I can't seem to resist commenting some.

I don't believe any animals in this present age will go to heaven.

Concerning Isaiah 11:6 and 65:25, this is not during the millennium, this is after the millennium. These will be newly created animals under the new creation.

Go a few verses before:

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (Isaiah 65:17)

John the Revelator takes these Old Testament types, and redefines them giving their antitypical interpretation (similar, but not identical to the type) in the book of Revelation, and places the New Heaven and the New Earth at the end of the millennium:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Revelation 21:1)

Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that after Christ's Second Coming, there will be "no man" on the planet. It says the earth will be "void", and "desolate". In Zephaniah 1:2,3, God says that in the Day of the Lord, God will consume "man", "beast", the "fowls of the heavens", and the "fish of the sea". In Isaiah 24:1,3, 17-22 and 14:16-22, we are taught that the earth will be completely destroyed and "clean dissolved", and Satan will not be joined with the wicked buried. Jeremiah 25:33 says that in the day of the Lord, the slain will be from one end of the earth, to the other end. And there will be nobody to lament them, gather them, or bury them. This is because they'll all be taken to heaven at the Second Coming. He only comes back to receive them unto Himself and take them to the prepared mansions in heaven. Not till the end of the 1000 years do all the saints return back to the earth. All the wicked that were dead during the 1000 years are resurrected to face the "second death". These are the nations (the resurrected nations) that Satan goes out to deceive at the end of the millennium (after they have been all resurrected).

Keep in mind that many of the Old Testament prophecies given to Israel were "conditional" dependent on their obedience and faithfulness to God. Many of these Old Testament prophecies will no longer be fulfilled to the literal nation of Israel in the same, Old Testament, typical fashion. These prophecies, however, are now redefined to be understood in their "antitypical" fulfillments, where many central elements will come to pass, but not all the details as given to the literal nation of Israel. (Example, Ezekiel 38 and 39 talk about men attacking Jerusalem on horses, with shields and armor...these were Old Testament types that will no longer come to pass in these details. The New Testament now borrows many elements of the Old Testament and redefines their antitypical application to Spiritual Israel. They will be literal though, just not "literalistic".

All the Old Testament prophecies are now being antitypically fulfilled in the Church, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[createdtoworship]

I wasn't going to get into this now, but I can't seem to resist commenting some.

I don't believe any animals in this present age will go to heaven.

Concerning Isaiah 11:6 and 65:25, this is not during the millennium, this is after the millennium. These will be newly created animals under the new creation.

Go a few verses before:

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (Isaiah 65:17)

John the Revelator takes these Old Testament types, and redefines them giving their antitypical interpretation (similar, but not identical to the type) in the book of Revelation, and places the New Heaven and the New Earth at the end of the millennium:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Revelation 21:1)

Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that after Christ's Second Coming, there will be "no man" on the planet. It says the earth will be "void", and "desolate". In Zephaniah 1:2,3, God says that in the Day of the Lord, God will consume "man", "beast", the "fowls of the heavens", and the "fish of the sea". In Isaiah 24:1,3, 17-22 and 14:16-22, we are taught that the earth will be completely destroyed and "clean dissolved", and Satan will not be joined with the wicked buried. Jeremiah 25:33 says that in the day of the Lord, the slain will be from one end of the earth, to the other end. And there will be nobody to lament them, gather them, or bury them. This is because they'll all be taken to heaven at the Second Coming. He only comes back to receive them unto Himself and take them to the prepared mansions in heaven. Not till the end of the 1000 years do all the saints return back to the earth. All the wicked that were dead during the 1000 years are resurrected to face the "second death". These are the nations (the resurrected nations) that Satan goes out to deceive at the end of the millennium (after they have been all resurrected).

Keep in mind that many of the Old Testament prophecies given to Israel were "conditional" dependent on their obedience and faithfulness to God. Many of these Old Testament prophecies will no longer be fulfilled to the literal nation of Israel in the same, Old Testament, typical fashion. These prophecies, however, are now redefined to be understood in their "antitypical" fulfillments, where many central elements will come to pass, but not all the details as given to the literal nation of Israel. (Example, Ezekiel 38 and 39 talk about men attacking Jerusalem on horses, with shields and armor...these were Old Testament types that will no longer come to pass in these details. The New Testament now borrows many elements of the Old Testament and redefines their antitypical application to Spiritual Israel. They will be literal though, just not "literalistic".

All the Old Testament prophecies are now being antitypically fulfilled in the Church, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles.

Isaiah and yourself have mixed up the "world to come" with the "new earth," (heb 2:5 versus rev 21:1)

http://raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/25-stages.gif


a Bible Knowledge commentary by Dallas Theological Seminary states this

Most likely Isaiah did not distinguish between these two aspects of God’s rule; he saw them together as one. After all, the Millennium, though 1,000 years in duration, will be a mere pinpoint of time compared with the eternal state.
Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 1:1120

I would say so since he muggled up the millenial land with the eternal estate.

Many times the millenial land is spoken of as a type of heaven but ezekiel and other places specify what land lot to use and how big and what fernishings to use in the temple. all of these things are for the millenial kingdom.

 

[createdtoworship]

anyway back to the topic, here is a clip of clarence larkin on the renovation of the earth by fire not being the lake of fire... It kinda long and extensive but his book is pivotal in all of these eschatology

http://raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/25-renovation.gif

http://raptureforums.com/ClarenceLarkin/images/25-stages.gif

Clarence larkin states this regarding His pictures above...

Immediately after the destruction of Satan and his armies, John says, "I saw a 'Great White Throne' and Him that sat on it, from whose face the Earth and the Heaven (atmosphere of the earth) fled away; and there was no place for them." Rev. 20:11.

John then describes the Judgment of the "Great White Throne," and then adds-

"I saw a New Heaven; and a New Earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Rev. 21:1.

Of such a change in this earth we are not ignorant, but John does not tell us how it is to come to pass. But the Apostle Peter does.

"But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, RESERVED UNTO FIRE against the Day of judgment and Perdition of Ungodly Men. (The Great White Throne judgment)- The 'Day of the Lord' will come as a thief in the night; in the which the Heavens Shall Pass Away With a Great Noise, and the Elements Shall Melt With Fervent Heat, the Earth Also and the Works That Are Therein Shall be Burned Up.

"Nevertheless we, according to His Promise, (Isa. 65:17; Isa. 66:22) look for a New Heavens and a New Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2Pet. 3:7-9.

It is clear that Peter is referring to the same event as John, for he says it is to be at the "Day of judgment and Perdition of Ungodly Men, " and that is the "Great White Throne judgment" of the Wicked Dead.

A surface reading of the above passage would lead one to believe that the earth as a planet, and the sidereal heavens, are to be destroyed by fire and pass away. But a careful study of the Scriptures will show us that this is not so, that what is to happen is, that this present earth, and the atmosphere surrounding it, is to be Renovated by Fire, so that its exterior surface shall be completely changed, and all that sin has brought into existence, such as thorns and thistles, disease germs, insect pests, etc., shall be destroyed, and the atmosphere purified and forever freed from evil spirits and destructive agencies.

That this is the correct view of the passage is clear from Peter's words in verses 5 and 6.

"By the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, PERISHED."

The world that the Apostle is referring to here, was not the "Antediluvian World" that was changed by the "Flood, " but to the "Primeval World, " mentioned in Gen. 1:1, and which was made waste and void by a Flood that completely submerged it. Gen. 1:2. See the Chapter on "Rightly Dividing the Word."

The Apostle Peter divides the history of the earth into three periods. The period before the earth was made "formless and void, " or the "Primeval Earth, " which he calls "the world that Then Was; " the present period which he calls "the heavens and the earth which "Are Now, " and in which there has been no great change since the restoration of the earth, described in Gen. 1:3-2:1; and the New Heaven and Earth which is yet future. 2Pet. 3:5-7, 2Pet. 3:13.

Now as the Framework of the "Primeval Earth" was not destroyed by its "Watery Bath, " so the Framework of the "Present Earth" is not to be destroyed by its "Baptism of Fire."

This is confirmed by the Apostle's use of the Greek word "Cosmos, " which means the "land surface, the inhabitableness of the earth, and not the earth as a planet. It is the exterior surface of the earth then that is to "Melt With Fervent Heat" and the "Works Therein Burnt Up." The intense heat will cause the gases in the atmosphere to explode, which the Apostle describes as the "heavens (the atmosphere) passing away with a great noise." The result will be the destruction of all animal and vegetable life, and the alteration of the earth's surface.

The Greek work "Parerchomai, " translated "pass away, " does not mean "termination of existence" or "annihilation, " but means to pass from "one condition of existence to another." The Apostle Paul in his letter to Titus, (Titus 3:, Titus 3:5), speaking of the "Regeneration" of men, uses the same word that Jesus used when, in Matt. 19:28, He promised His Disciples that in the "Regeneration, " that is in the "New Earth, " they should sit on "Twelve Thrones" judging the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel. Now no one supposes that the Regeneration of a man is his Annihilation." It is simply a Renewing Process by which he is brought back to the condition of man spiritually as before the Fall. The word "Restitution" in Acts 3:21, means the same thing. The"Dissolving" of which Peter speaks, (2Pet. 3:11), is the same word Jesus used when He said of the colt-"Loose him and let him go." The teaching of the Scriptures is, that "Creation" is at present in a "State of Captivity, " waiting to be Loosed from the Bondage that sin has caused. Rom. 8:19-21.

As to the "Departing as a Scroll" of the heavens, and the "Flying Away" of the earth and heavens, of which John speaks, (Rev. 6:14; Rev. 20:11), a total disappearance of all the material worlds is not at all the idea, for he tells us that afterwards he saw-the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven, and nations living and walking in the Light of it on the earth, and the Kings of the Earth bringing their Glory and Honor Into It." Rev. 21:2, Rev. 21:24.

The Holy Spirit by Solomon said, "One generation passeth away and another generation cometh, but the Earth Abideth Forever." Eccl. 1:4. It is specifically promised that "the Meek shall Inherit the Earth, " (Matt. 5:5), and that the Children of Israel shall dwell in it forever, (Isa. 60:21 ; 66:22), and if God's people are to inhabit it forever, it must EXIST FOREVER. It is clear then that this earth as a planet is not to be annihilated, but that it is to be Cleaned and Purified by Fire and made fit for the home of those peoples and nations that are to occupy it after its renovation.

This earth that has been consecrated by the Presence of the Son of God, where the costliest sacrifice that the Universe could furnish was offered up on Calvary to redeem a race, for which God has a great future, is too sacred a place to ever be blotted out or cease to exist, for it is the most cherished orb in the mind of God of all His great creation.

The New Heaven and the New Earth.

With the "Renovation of the Earth by Fire, " Time does not end and Eternity begin, for we read in the New Testament of a "Perfect Kingdom" that Christ shall surrender to the Father, so that God may be "All in All." 1Cor. 15:24-26. A Kingdom in which-

"At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in Heaven, and things in Earth, and things Under the Earth, and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD." Phil. 2:9-1 Phil. 2:1.

This describes a Kingdom in which all things Celestial, Terrestrial and Infernal are to be subject to the SON OF MAN.

Now this "Perfect Kingdom" cannot be the "Millennial Kingdom, " for that, as we have seen, ends in Apostasy and Rebellion. It must therefore mean another Kingdom on the Other Side of the Millennial Kingdom, " and as there is to be no other Kingdom between the "Millennial Kingdom" and the "Renovation of the Earth by Fire, " it must mean a Kingdom that is to follow the "Renovation of the Earth by Fire, " and that Kingdom is the Kingdom of the "New Heaven and the New Earth, " which we call on the "Rightly Dividing the Word" Chart, the "Perfect Kingdom."

If, as some hold, the "Seventh Day" of the "Creative Week" corresponds to the Millennium, then we have a prophecy of the Dispensation that follows the "Renovation of the Earth" in the "Morrow After the Sabbath." Lev. 23:36.

The Seventh day of Genesis had to do with the "Old Creation, " which was imperfect, but the "Eighth Day" has to do with the "New Creation, " which is perfect, for it was on the "Eighth Day, " or the "First Day of the week, " that our Lord arose from the dead, and 50 days later, on the "Eighth Day, " that the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost. The "Eighth Day" cannot point to the Millennium, for that is represented by the "Seventh Day, " neither can it point to Eternity, for a day is a Period of Time, while Eternity is Timeless. The "Eighth Day" must then point to a "period of time" between the "Renovation of the Earth" and Eternity, or what we are pleased to call the "Perfect Age."

It is also a Dispensation, called in Eph. 1:10-

"The Dispensation of the Fulness of Times."

That is, a "Full-Time Dispensation." The intimation is, that all the previous Dispensations were not "Full-Time" Dispensations, that God had to cut them short on account of sin.

As to the duration of this Dispensation of the "Fulness of Times" we are not in the dark. Israel is to have a large place in that Dispensation.

"For as the New Heavens and the New Earth, which I will make shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your (Israel's) Seed and your Name REMAIN." Isa. 66:22.

And as the duration of God's Covenant with Israel was extended in Deut. 7:9 to a "Thousand Generations" or 33, 000 years, we have an intimation that the "Dispensation of the Fulness of Times" will last for at least that length of time.

Let us look at some of the characteristics of that Age or Dispensation.

There Will Be No Sin.

All the powers of Evil will have been expelled from the earth and imprisoned in the "Lake of Fire" forever.

The atmosphere of the New Earth will afford no lurking place for disease germs, for there shall be no more sickness or death, and health will be preserved by the use of the leaves of the "Tree of Life." The heavens shall not robe themselves in angry tempests and sombre blackness, nor flash with the thunderbolts of Divine wrath, nor cast plagues of hail on the earth, nor cause devouring floods of water or destructive wind storms. It may be that in that day, "a Mist shall go up from the earth and water the whole face of the ground" as in Eden, for we read that there shall be-"No More Sea, " not that there shall not be large bodies of water, for the river that flows through the street of the New City must have an outlet, but that there shall be no great oceans.

The earth shall also put on its Edenic beauty and glory. There shall no longer be thorns and thistles, no parasites or destructive insects, and labor shall be a delight. No serpents shall hiss among its flowers, nor savage beasts lie in ambush to destroy and devour. Its sod shall not be heaped over newly made graves, nor its soil moistened with tears of sorrow and shame, or saturated with human blood in fratricidal strife. The meek shall inherit the earth, and from north to south, and from east to west, it shall blossom like the rose and be clothed with the verdure of Paradise Restored.

But there is not only to be a New Heaven and a New Earth, there is to be a New City. This City is the place Jesus said He was going back to Heaven to prepare for His Bride the Church. John 14:2-4. It is just such a place as we would expect the Divine Architect to design and build. The description of it is surpassingly grand. It is of Celestial origin. It is not Heaven itself, for it comes down "out of Heaven." No mortal hands are employed in its construction. It will take up its abode on the New Earth, and we see in this why this present Earth will have to be renovated by fire, and why there shall be "no more sea, " for the New City is 12, 000 furlongs, or 1500 miles square, and would reach from Maine to Florida, and from the Atlantic Seaboard 600 miles to the west of the Mississippi River. In other words would occupy more than one-half of the United States.

We are told that the length and breadth and the height of it are equal. This does not necessarily imply that it is a Cube, for there is another geometrical figure that has equal dimensions, and that is a Pyramid. This is its probable form, for a wall 144 cubits, or 216 feet thick, could not support a wall 1500 miles high, and a wall that high would hide the pyramidal part of the City from view.

The 144 cubits (Rev. 21:17) then must refer to the "height" of the wall. In this wall are 12 gates, 3 on each side, each gate of one Pearl, and these gates are never closed.

The wall itself is of jasper, and the foundations are garnished with all manner of precious stones. The foundations contain the names of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, and over the gates are the names of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. What a magnificent spectacle such a city must present from a distance with its pyramidal top surmounted by the light of the "Glory of God."

"For the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it, for the 'Glory of God did lighten it, and THE LAMB is The LIGHT THEREOF." Rev. 21:23.

"And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day, for there shall be No Night There." Rev. 21:25.

This refers to the City only, and not to the outlying parts of the New Earth, for there will be day and night wherever the light of the City does not reach.

The Pyramidal part of the City will doubtless be in the centre of the City, and probably not occupy over one-half of the surface area, leaving the remainder to be divided up into boulevards and broad avenues, with numerous parks and residential sections. We are told that the City itself is of Pure Gold, Like Unto Clear Glass. Rev. 21:18. If this refers to the houses and homes of the inhabitants, then the redeemed are to live in palaces of Transparent Gold, and the streets are to be of the same material. Rev. 21:18, Rev. 21:21. We cannot imagine a city with such dwellings and streets to be unclean or lack beauty.

The streets are to be lined with trees, as are also the banks of a wonderful river. These trees are not mere shade trees, but beautiful Fruit Trees, called the "TREE OF LIFE." that bear Twelve Kind of Fruit, a different kind each month. The fruit of these trees is for Overcomers Only.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the 'Tree of Life' which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." Rev. 2:7.

The leaves of the trees are for the Healing of the Nations that shall occupy the New Earth. Not that there will be any sickness, but to preserve them in health, as Adam would have been preserved in health if he had eaten of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. Gen. 3:22-24.


rest of article

Clarence Larkin - Dispensational Truth - Chapter 25 - Renovation of the Earth

 

[Lysimachus]

Gradyll,

I can see that this thread is slowly evolving into a debate concerning Dispensationalism and the Millennium.

You have to understand that in order for us to make any sense to each other, we're going to have to start from complete scratch and work our way up. Dispensational construct is so vastly different from the Historicist construct, that words cannot even begin to describe as to the time that it takes to re-mold the mind of a Dispensationalist into a Historicist or vice versa.

I thought you should know, however, that I am very familiar with Dispensatianal prophecy. I've been reading their books and materials for years, and am well acquinted with how they reason.

I'm actually writing a book (that is about 150 pages in length thus far) that is specifically dealing with dismantling Dispensational ideology and vindicating the historicist hermeneutic.

I'm sure it would be annoying to many readers if I were to paste all my arguments in these forums, as it would be some exhaustive and wearisome reading. Therefore, I will simply give you a couple links to some excerpts from my book that I posted on another forum:

The Origins of Dispensational Futurism

The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology Concerning Ancient Israel
- Conditional Types of Unconditional Antitypes

There is also a free book online I highly recommend.

It's entitled:

Prophetic Tool Chest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion (Click: Table of Contents to see full book)

It's a total of 12 chapters long, and about 550 pages. I've read the entire book more than once, and have listened to all their audio shows found here.

Brother, the information is so vast that I do not even know where to begin. I beg of you to take out some portions of your time every day to review the material.

I do not wish to sound offensive by any stretch of the imagionation brother, but allow me to kindly express to you my overwhelming conviction. And that is, the Dispensational prophetic constructs of Protestantism is one of the most dangerous.

Why is this? Because the architects of the Dispensational-Futurist eschatological constructs were the Jesuits of Rome, to confuse the Protestants in being capable of identifying the true Antichrist of Bible Prophecy, that being Rome. Instead of recognizing the Day-For-Year principle in the 42 months as 1260 years as clearly outlined in Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34 (and recognized in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27), covering the time span of Papal Supremacy, Protestants succumbed to the published works in libraries and schools of Jesuits Francisco Ribera, Robert Bellarmino, and Manuel de Lacunza in the 16th-18th centuries on fantastical, jesuitical, Dispensational-Futurist interpretations of Bible prophecy--by literalizing these time periods to literal days rather than being consistent with the day-for-year principle (70 weeks = 490 years, 42 months = 1260 years, 2300 days = 2300 years). It was a strategy to bring about ecumenism, so that the Protestant daughters would come back into the fold of the mother hen--Rome.

It has been the Devil's strategy to destroy Historicism. The Papacy hates Historicism, and they love Dispensationalsim. And you will see this fact clearly revealed as you read D.S. Farris' book "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion", and listening to the radio programs.

There is nothing like them under the heavens as it exposes the grotesque false system of error created by the Beast himself to destroy the foundations laid down by our Godly reformers.

Blessings,

Lysimachus

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll,

I can see that this thread is slowly evolving into a debate concerning Dispensationalism and the Millennium.

You have to understand that in order for us to make any sense to each other, we're going to have to start from complete scratch and work our way up. Dispensational construct is so vastly different from the Historicist construct, that words cannot even begin to describe as to the time that it takes to re-mold the mind of a Dispensationalist into a Historicist or vice versa.

I thought you should know, however, that I am very familiar with Dispensatianal prophecy. I've been reading their books and materials for years, and am well acquinted with how they reason.

I'm actually writing a book (that is about 150 pages in length thus far) that is specifically dealing with dismantling Dispensational ideology and vindicating the historicist hermeneutic.

I'm sure it would be annoying to many readers if I were to paste all my arguments in these forums, as it would be some exhaustive and wearisome reading. Therefore, I will simply give you a couple links to some excerpts from my book that I posted on another forum:

The Origins of Dispensational Futurism

The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology Concerning Ancient Israel
- Conditional Types of Unconditional Antitypes

There is also a free book online I highly recommend.

It's entitled:

Prophetic Tool Chest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion (Click: Table of Contents to see full book)

It's a total of 12 chapters long, and about 550 pages. I've read the entire book more than once, and have listened to all their audio shows found here.

Brother, the information is so vast that I do not even know where to begin. I beg of you to take out some portions of your time every day to review the material.

I do not wish to sound offensive by any stretch of the imagionation brother, but allow me to kindly express to you my overwhelming conviction. And that is, the Dispensational prophetic constructs of Protestantism is one of the most dangerous.

Why is this? Because the architects of the Dispensational-Futurist eschatological constructs were the Jesuits of Rome, to confuse the Protestants in being capable of identifying the true Antichrist of Bible Prophecy, that being Rome. Instead of recognizing the Day-For-Year principle in the 42 months as 1260 years as clearly outlined in Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34 (and recognized in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27), covering the time span of Papal Supremacy, Protestants succumbed to the published works in libraries and schools of Jesuits Francisco Ribera, Robert Bellarmino, and Manuel de Lacunza in the 16th-18th centuries on fantastical, jesuitical, Dispensational-Futurist interpretations of Bible prophecy--by literalizing these time periods to literal days rather than being consistent with the day-for-year principle (70 weeks = 490 years, 42 months = 1260 years, 2300 days = 2300 years). It was a strategy to bring about ecumenism, so that the Protestant daughters would come back into the fold of the mother hen--Rome.

It has been the Devil's strategy to destroy Historicism. The Papacy hates Historicism, and they love Dispensationalsim. And you will see this fact clearly revealed as you read D.S. Farris' book "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion", and listening to the radio programs.

There is nothing like them under the heavens as it exposes the grotesque false system of error created by the Beast himself to destroy the foundations laid down by our Godly reformers.

Blessings,

Lysimachus

interesting links, I didn't read all of it. But I am definitaly a futurist as all prophecy is futuresk. Historicism doesn't account for prophecy as it's future yet.

 

[Lysimachus]

interesting links, I didn't read all of it. But I am definitaly a futurist as all prophecy is futuresk. Historicism doesn't account for prophecy as it's future yet.

Very few understand what Historicism is all about. I'll break it down for ya:


Misconceptions Corner

Q) Are Historicists essentially “Preterists”? Do Historicists deny “Future Applications” of Bible Prophecy?

A) I have run into a number of Futurists who accuse Historicists of essentially believing in Preterism. They argue that both Historicism and Preterism essentially operate on the same principles, and only differing in time periods. But I hope to show this to be categorically untrue. Historicism is JUST as much or more opposed to Preterism and its principles as is Futurism. Both Futurism and Preterism deny the day-for-year principle as defined for us in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34, along with a host of other day-for-year parallels found in scripture. Both principles place the Antichrist outside of the Dark Ages, either into the distant past during the time of Antiochus Epiphanies IV or Nero, or exclusively into the future during a 7 year tribulation. In fact, I believe Preterism actually has more in common with Futurism than does Historicism. Futurism, like Preterism, in most cases identifies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as Antiochus Epiphanies IV, but they say that the Little Horn of the Beast in Daniel 7 is different from the Little Horn in Daniel 8, and they push Daniel 7’s Little Horn as the future Antichrist. Like in Daniel 7, Historicism applies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 also to Rome, except in chapter 8 it encompasses both Pagan and Papal, whereas in chapter 7 it is only dealing with its Papal phase. In addition, Preterism, like Futurism, takes the 1260 days or 3 ½ years of tribulation and makes them literal days rather than symbolic days which stand for years according to Historicists.

I also believe that Futurists constantly confuse "Futurism" with a "Future Application". They wrongly conclude that we Historicists place no prophecies into the future, and assert that, like Preterists, we place the Antichrist and great tribulation in the past like the Preterists, except we apply them during the dark ages. But there is a big difference that they are missing. Futurism has to do with the fact that the Antichrist is placed EXCLUSIVELY (take note, "exclusively") beyond the year 1798. The Early Church Fathers, such as Ireneaus and Hyppolytus held "futuristic elements" no doubt. But these "futuristic elements" were not enough to make them "Futurists", because they lived prior to the rooted establishment of the arm of the Papacy, primarily 538 (the precise date is insignificant however). What makes one a Futurist, is that they bypass 1000+ years of history, and insert a "gap", by making the Antichrist exclusively one single man. Also keep in mind that men like Ireneaus and Hyppolytus believed the world would end around 500 A.D. which would have understandably eclipsed their ability to comprehend a future 1260 year Antichrist reign from their time. The fact that we are living some 1500 years beyond that date establishes their limited perceptions of prophecy to be “outdated”. It would seem that Futurists should know this, but they ignore it.

Futurists do not need to get us wrong, for we do believe in a Future Tribulation, and we do believe in a future Antichrist manifestation. While some Historicists may disagree, I personally believe there is a small possibility for there to be a literal Future 1260, 1290, and 1335 days based on Daniel 12. But this is only a “secondary” application, neither is it a dogmatic one of mine. I’m a historicist to the core, but even if there was a future application to this prophecy, this does not make me a "Futurist", rather, this would simply add the next scenario in the grand prophetic puzzle, because when you evaluate Historicism, Historicism is very flexible, and it allows future applications! We also mustn’t forget that Matthew 24 has about three applications regarding the great tribulation. The first application has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and the Christians who were to flea to Pela. The secondary application points to the 1260 years of Papal persecution during the Dark Ages. And the third application points to the very end of the world. If Matthew 24 can have more than one application, could it be that perhaps Daniel 12 might also?

It should be noted that Futurism exclusively forces the bulk of the prophecies in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, 12 and Revelation 11, 12, 13, and 17 into the future. Historicism evenly spreads them out in a "continuous fashion", taking into account the "PAST", the "PRESENT", AND the "FUTURE".

So yes, there will be a future application....this has to do with the healing of the wound of the beast. This is the "second manifestation" of the Papacy. Paul makes it very clear that the "mystery of lawlessness" (2 Thess 2:7) was already at work in Paul's day, and finally he concludes in verse 8 that the "Lawless one would be destroyed by the brightness of His coming" (Verse 8 ). This emphatically suggests that the Antichrist Power began in Paul's day, and will continue till the very end of time. The Papacy meets this fulfillment to an exact T.

A twist to this whole thing is that many Historicists do believe there will be a “single Antichrist-individual” just before Jesus comes. But this does not eclipse the plain Biblical fact that the previous succession of line of Popes did not fill the seat of Antichrist. The Biblical evidence is quite convincing that Lucifer will impersonate Christ and deceive millions of people after he musters his crowning act of deception after deceiving the masses as the coming Christ of the dawning of the new age. He may even seat himself into the Vatican, and the papacy will crown him Pope. So there is a “dualistic” application. While the Antichrist “system” is fulfilled in the Papacy, this Antichrist system will manifest itself with a single man…that being Lucifer who will take the Seat of St. Peter himself, impersonating an Angel of Light (or a Messenger of Light as the Christ, but the false one at that. This is after the wound that was received in 1798 is fully healed!

This is clearly NOT Futurism. If you think about it, these future applications do not in any way destroy the sound principles of Historicism for which ALL our Protestant Reformers subscribed to. These future events are simply a future application, or to put it in other words: Historicism finally reaches its “climax” on its future side.

In concluding, I wish to emphasize that Historicist is nearly a dead and forgotten breed among the modern evangelical world. This hermeneutic of prophetic interpretation is founded on the principles of Revelation 1:4, 8, 19; 22:16 which state....

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." (1:4)

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME, the Almighty." (1:8 )

"Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the THINGS WHICH ARE, and the THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER." (1:19)​

In essence, I fully believe that the Historicist hermeneutic is congruous with the nature of God. The application takes serious note to the "Past", "Present", and "Future" applications of Bible prophecy, by avoiding the pitfall of stuffing too much to the future, or too much to the past--but rather gives careful attention to the "continuous" fulfillment of Bible prophecy throughout human history. I believe that Historicism is not only well-backed by scripture, but is also supported by volumes of exegetical Historicist works from some of the greatest Bible minds of the past which have been largely forgotten by the popular evangelical world of today, especially beginning around 1850 and on.

 

[createdtoworship]

Very few understand what Historicism is all about. I'll break it down for ya:


Misconceptions Corner

Q) Are Historicists essentially “Preterists”? Do Historicists deny “Future Applications” of Bible Prophecy?

A) I have run into a number of Futurists who accuse Historicists of essentially believing in Preterism. They argue that both Historicism and Preterism essentially operate on the same principles, and only differing in time periods. But I hope to show this to be categorically untrue. Historicism is JUST as much or more opposed to Preterism and its principles as is Futurism. Both Futurism and Preterism deny the day-for-year principle as defined for us in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34, along with a host of other day-for-year parallels found in scripture. Both principles place the Antichrist outside of the Dark Ages, either into the distant past during the time of Antiochus Epiphanies IV or Nero, or exclusively into the future during a 7 year tribulation. In fact, I believe Preterism actually has more in common with Futurism than does Historicism. Futurism, like Preterism, in most cases identifies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as Antiochus Epiphanies IV, but they say that the Little Horn of the Beast in Daniel 7 is different from the Little Horn in Daniel 8, and they push Daniel 7’s Little Horn as the future Antichrist. Like in Daniel 7, Historicism applies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 also to Rome, except in chapter 8 it encompasses both Pagan and Papal, whereas in chapter 7 it is only dealing with its Papal phase. In addition, Preterism, like Futurism, takes the 1260 days or 3 ½ years of tribulation and makes them literal days rather than symbolic days which stand for years according to Historicists.

I also believe that Futurists constantly confuse "Futurism" with a "Future Application". They wrongly conclude that we Historicists place no prophecies into the future, and assert that, like Preterists, we place the Antichrist and great tribulation in the past like the Preterists, except we apply them during the dark ages. But there is a big difference that they are missing. Futurism has to do with the fact that the Antichrist is placed EXCLUSIVELY (take note, "exclusively") beyond the year 1798. The Early Church Fathers, such as Ireneaus and Hyppolytus held "futuristic elements" no doubt. But these "futuristic elements" were not enough to make them "Futurists", because they lived prior to the rooted establishment of the arm of the Papacy, primarily 538 (the precise date is insignificant however). What makes one a Futurist, is that they bypass 1000+ years of history, and insert a "gap", by making the Antichrist exclusively one single man. Also keep in mind that men like Ireneaus and Hyppolytus believed the world would end around 500 A.D. which would have understandably eclipsed their ability to comprehend a future 1260 year Antichrist reign from their time. The fact that we are living some 1500 years beyond that date establishes their limited perceptions of prophecy to be “outdated”. It would seem that Futurists should know this, but they ignore it.

Futurists do not need to get us wrong, for we do believe in a Future Tribulation, and we do believe in a future Antichrist manifestation. While some Historicists may disagree, I personally believe there is a small possibility for there to be a literal Future 1260, 1290, and 1335 days based on Daniel 12. But this is only a “secondary” application, neither is it a dogmatic one of mine. I’m a historicist to the core, but even if there was a future application to this prophecy, this does not make me a "Futurist", rather, this would simply add the next scenario in the grand prophetic puzzle, because when you evaluate Historicism, Historicism is very flexible, and it allows future applications! We also mustn’t forget that Matthew 24 has about three applications regarding the great tribulation. The first application has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and the Christians who were to flea to Pela. The secondary application points to the 1260 years of Papal persecution during the Dark Ages. And the third application points to the very end of the world. If Matthew 24 can have more than one application, could it be that perhaps Daniel 12 might also?

It should be noted that Futurism exclusively forces the bulk of the prophecies in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, 12 and Revelation 11, 12, 13, and 17 into the future. Historicism evenly spreads them out in a "continuous fashion", taking into account the "PAST", the "PRESENT", AND the "FUTURE".

So yes, there will be a future application....this has to do with the healing of the wound of the beast. This is the "second manifestation" of the Papacy. Paul makes it very clear that the "mystery of lawlessness" (2 Thess 2:7) was already at work in Paul's day, and finally he concludes in verse 8 that the "Lawless one would be destroyed by the brightness of His coming" (Verse 8 ). This emphatically suggests that the Antichrist Power began in Paul's day, and will continue till the very end of time. The Papacy meets this fulfillment to an exact T.

A twist to this whole thing is that many Historicists do believe there will be a “single Antichrist-individual” just before Jesus comes. But this does not eclipse the plain Biblical fact that the previous succession of line of Popes did not fill the seat of Antichrist. The Biblical evidence is quite convincing that Lucifer will impersonate Christ and deceive millions of people after he musters his crowning act of deception after deceiving the masses as the coming Christ of the dawning of the new age. He may even seat himself into the Vatican, and the papacy will crown him Pope. So there is a “dualistic” application. While the Antichrist “system” is fulfilled in the Papacy, this Antichrist system will manifest itself with a single man…that being Lucifer who will take the Seat of St. Peter himself, impersonating an Angel of Light (or a Messenger of Light as the Christ, but the false one at that. This is after the wound that was received in 1798 is fully healed!

This is clearly NOT Futurism. If you think about it, these future applications do not in any way destroy the sound principles of Historicism for which ALL our Protestant Reformers subscribed to. These future events are simply a future application, or to put it in other words: Historicism finally reaches its “climax” on its future side.

In concluding, I wish to emphasize that Historicist is nearly a dead and forgotten breed among the modern evangelical world. This hermeneutic of prophetic interpretation is founded on the principles of Revelation 1:4, 8, 19; 22:16 which state....

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." (1:4)

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME, the Almighty." (1:8 )

"Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the THINGS WHICH ARE, and the THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER." (1:19)​

In essence, I fully believe that the Historicist hermeneutic is congruous with the nature of God. The application takes serious note to the "Past", "Present", and "Future" applications of Bible prophecy, by avoiding the pitfall of stuffing too much to the future, or too much to the past--but rather gives careful attention to the "continuous" fulfillment of Bible prophecy throughout human history. I believe that Historicism is not only well-backed by scripture, but is also supported by volumes of exegetical Historicist works from some of the greatest Bible minds of the past which have been largely forgotten by the popular evangelical world of today, especially beginning around 1850 and on.

if your link was correct it said that futurism different from historicism because of the gap in prophecy and because the anti christ was one man but at the same time a historicist can adopt all the prophecy they want and yet not be a futurist. Is this true? Sounds a little off.

 

[Lysimachus]

if your link was correct it said that futurism different from historicism because of the gap in prophecy and because the anti christ was one man but at the same time a historicist can adopt all the prophecy they want and yet not be a futurist. Is this true? Sounds a little off.

You are not asking open questions brother. I would appreciate it more, not for me, but for your own good, if your questions would be more of this nature:

"From what I am understanding, you seem to be saying this? Please correct me I'm wrong. I would like to understand what you are saying better".

This is the only correct approach if we are going to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us.

The difference with Futurism and Historicism has more to do with the fact that Futurism tends to leave the past unchecked. Everything is always in the future, and it never comes to pass. Futurism has to do with a failure to study history and see how the historical events meet the prophetic criteria.

All I am saying is that, although Historicism concerns prophetic events that span all the ages of earth's history, there will be a climax to all these prophecies--which means, there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled and are still future.

Here is an example of the fallacy of Futurism:

Futurism takes Revelation 4-19, places all these chapters in the 70th week of Daniel, or the "Seven-Year-Tribulation".

With all due respect, this is ludicrous. We are going to take ALL these events in Revelation and put them ALL in the "yet future", when clearly, the Middle Ages was still 400 years Future to John?

Let's consider Revelation 13 for example. It speaks about a Beast that rules for a period of 42 months/1260 days, or a "time, times, and a half of time". It says it wears out the saints of the Most High! These are the SAME characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7! The Little Horn of Daniel 7 lasts for 1260 days, and wears out the saints of the Most High!

But tell me, where did this Little Horn come from?

It grew out of the 4th Beast of Daniel 7!!

According to most Bible Prophecy expositors of the past, and present, what does the 4th Beast represent?

The Roman Empire ruled by the Caesars!

Question:

When did the Pagan Roman Empire by the Caesars fall?

Answer:

476 A.D.!

Question:

Where did the Little Horn grow out of?

Answer:

It grew out of the 4th Beast, which is the Roman Empire

Now think about this. In order to justify the Little Horn Antichrist power of Daniel 7 as being placed exclusively in the future, guess what you have to do?

You have to SAW OFF the Little Horn (and all the other 10 horns for that matter), and insert a 1500 year GAP between the Beast and the Horns!!

With all due respect, this is ridiculous.

The fact is, the Little Horn power began to grow in Paul's day, and it will continue ALL the way until Christ's Second Coming.

That is the Papal System for you. The Pope of Rome! The one who took the Title from the Roman Emperor Constantine, and called himself "Pontifex Maximus"!

The Woman that rides the beast is the "religious" side. The Beast itself is its Political side through the Civil Powers.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So, what about the possibility that souls can be destroyed, as Jesus said, but that spirits can suffering eternal torment? That would explain why the Bible repeatedly speaks both of annihiliation and eternal tormnet.

 

[Timothew]

So, what about the possibility that souls can be destroyed, as Jesus said, but that spirits can suffering eternal torment? That would explain why the Bible repeatedly speaks both of annihiliation and eternal tormnet.

Hi Lutheran Mafia.
Can you tell me more about this theory?

 

[createdtoworship]

You are not asking open questions brother. I would appreciate it more, not for me, but for your own good, if your questions would be more of this nature:

"From what I am understanding, you seem to be saying this? Please correct me I'm wrong. I would like to understand what you are saying better".

This is the only correct approach if we are going to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us.

The difference with Futurism and Historicism has more to do with the fact that Futurism tends to leave the past unchecked. Everything is always in the future, and it never comes to pass. Futurism has to do with a failure to study history and see how the historical events meet the prophetic criteria.

All I am saying is that, although Historicism concerns prophetic events that span all the ages of earth's history, there will be a climax to all these prophecies--which means, there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled and are still future.

Here is an example of the fallacy of Futurism:

Futurism takes Revelation 4-19, places all these chapters in the 70th week of Daniel, or the "Seven-Year-Tribulation".

With all due respect, this is ludicrous. We are going to take ALL these events in Revelation and put them ALL in the "yet future", when clearly, the Middle Ages was still 400 years Future to John?

Let's consider Revelation 13 for example. It speaks about a Beast that rules for a period of 42 months/1260 days, or a "time, times, and a half of time". It says it wears out the saints of the Most High! These are the SAME characteristics of the Little Horn of Daniel 7! The Little Horn of Daniel 7 lasts for 1260 days, and wears out the saints of the Most High!

But tell me, where did this Little Horn come from?

It grew out of the 4th Beast of Daniel 7!!

According to most Bible Prophecy expositors of the past, and present, what does the 4th Beast represent?

The Roman Empire ruled by the Caesars!

Question:

When did the Pagan Roman Empire by the Caesars fall?

Answer:

476 A.D.!

Question:

Where did the Little Horn grow out of?

Answer:

It grew out of the 4th Beast, which is the Roman Empire

Now think about this. In order to justify the Little Horn Antichrist power of Daniel 7 as being placed exclusively in the future, guess what you have to do?

You have to SAW OFF the Little Horn (and all the other 10 horns for that matter), and insert a 1500 year GAP between the Beast and the Horns!!

With all due respect, this is ridiculous.

The fact is, the Little Horn power began to grow in Paul's day, and it will continue ALL the way until Christ's Second Coming.

That is the Papal System for you. The Pope of Rome! The one who took the Title from the Roman Emperor Constantine, and called himself "Pontifex Maximus"!

The Woman that rides the beast is the "religious" side. The Beast itself is its Political side through the Civil Powers.

I see what you are saying with the seventieth week of daniel, but perhaps that was why it was written as a prophecy yet unfulfilled and not as history. I mean I have yet to see seven seals and seven bowls and seven cups and the riders of the apocalypse etc etc.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Hi Lutheran Mafia.
Can you tell me more about this theory?

There are several references to the "outer darkness" as a place of damnation. There is no mention of destruction in these passages:

1. Matthew 8:12
   but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
2. Matthew 22:13
   "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
   
3. Matthew 25:30
   "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So in the outer darkness there is not destruction, but eternal anguish that gets ever worse.
Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, but not the the destruction of the spirit:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

So I think that the spirit of the damned is sent to the outer darkness where it never completely ceases to exist but instead accelerates towards infinity where it becomes ever more ripped appart and tenuous.

 

[ghendricks63]

There are several references to the "outer darkness" as a place of damnation. There is no mention of destruction in these passages:

1. Matthew 8:12
   but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
2. Matthew 22:13
   "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
   
3. Matthew 25:30
   "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So in the outer darkness there is not destruction, but eternal anguish that gets ever worse.
Jesus talks about the destruction of the soul, but not the the destruction of the spirit:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

So I think that the spirit of the damned is sent to the outer darkness where it never completely ceases to exist but instead accelerates towards infinity where it becomes ever more ripped appart and tenuous.

I can see the concept of punishment in these verses...but I see nothing in them that states this punishment is eternal.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well, they say nothing about destruction. And there are verses that talk about eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

Well, they say nothing about destruction. And there are verses that talk about eternal torment.

Well, they do say something about destruction:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy bothsoul and body in hell.