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Let's Talk About Hell (2)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Lisa*Lisa, Feb 5, 2011.

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  1. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    I believe that every wicked person will burn at different lengths, according to their works. But eventually, everyone will burn up, and be no more. The Lake of Fire will cover the entire breadth of the earth according to 2 Peter 3:10-13. In order for the Earth to be made new in verse 13, the fire HAS to be removed! Therefore, the wicked cannot burn forever in the fire that covers the earth! This burning up will only take place when ALL the saints are safe inside the New Jerusalem, while the rest of the planet is covered in the Lake of Fire. After the wicked are burned up, then God will remove the Fire. After God removes the fire, the earth will be renewed before our very eyes. Then the Gates of the New Jerusalem will open up, and the Saints will inherit the New Earth for eternity.

    This takes place at the END of the millennium.

    And? This does not say they will burn for as long as God shall last. All the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and they will burn intensely, and feel the pain intensely, until they finally burn up. Hitler, for example, will burn MUCH longer and feel the pain MUCH longer than say, a 12 year old boy, that, although did not give his heart to God, did nobody harm, and did nothing corrupt or immoral.

    I worship a fair God, you worship a sadistic one. I am convinced of this, and am fully persuaded. And it is my duty to persuade you, and pray that the Holy Spirit convicts you of the same, and helps you see that you are falsely misinterpreting these texts.

    "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:47-49)​

    The above quote proves God to be a fair God. Everyone will be punished accordingly, some will burn longer than others. It all depends on the knowledge they received, and rejected. It all depends on how much they knew, and how much they went against what they knew to be right.

    And? I agree!!! They will go!! But they will not burn eternally!! They will burn, ACCORDING to their deeds! (See Psalms 28:4; Isaiah 59:18; Jeremiah 25:14; and Romans 2:6)

    One more time....

    "Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the Greek word for “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the exact same word, “aionos”.

    "For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." (Obadiah 1:16)

    Just like before they were born, Fred, they will be in the EXACT same state after they burned up. It's what the Bible says!

    Even Satan will turn to ashes, who is a SPIRIT BEING!

    "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:18)​

    It means just what it says Fred. Even spirit beings will turn into ashes according to the scriptures. They will CEASE to exist.

    I agree. Many will burn for long lengths of time. Imagine sticking your finger on the stove and see how long you can last. Some will burn for weeks, some months. But they will all burn up. That is enough punishment if you ask me for only 70 years of sin one's life!!! Let's not get UNREALISTIC here, and make God out to look like a tyrant, who is brutal and torturous to His enemies!

    2 things:

    1. This verse is using symbolism. A beast, and a false prophet. These are symbols. But the verse just before, verse 9, where there are no symbols, has the wicked being "devoured": "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Rev 20:9)

    2. John the Revelator is quoting from Isaiah 34:8-15:

    34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, [and] the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
    34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
    34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
    34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
    34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
    34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls.
    34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
    34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.​

    How can the wicked be burning for eternity if animals are dwelling in the same spot the fire was? And plants are growing in its stead?

    The only way you are going to come to a correct interpretation of Revelation, Fred, is if you know where John is quoting from and employing the symbolism. Also, the terms "for ever and ever" are the Greek words "aionos", which has also been translated "from age to age", meaning, for a long, indefinite period of time. It doesn't mean as long as God shall last.

    It says Jonah was in the belly of the whale "for ever" in Jonah 2:6. It also says Samuel was a "high priest for ever". The term "for ever and ever" must be understood in context of the duration of the subject in discussion. "until the end". The burning will continue forever until the person is dead. This is very simple to understand.

    If "hell" (hades) was cast into the lake of fire, doesn't that put an end to the physical torment? I would think so. These passages only support what I have been saying. The results of the eternal fire are everlasting. Remember, eternal fire comes from an eternal God. It is "eternal fire". But this does not mean it "eternally burns". Big difference between "eternal fire", and "eternally burning fire".

    The only hell-fire that will ever exist is the Lake of Fire at the end of the world. There is no such thing as an "outer darkness" outside the sun which you are imagining. Such thinking is no different than believing in Harry Potter or the Tooth Fairy. The terms "outer darkness" is simply a term to mean that they will be DEAD. Out of heaven! It is absolutely amazing the extreme lengths one will go to literalize the Word of God and make a sheer mockery out of it, and not grasp the beautiful symbolism and imagery being portrayed.

    I have just proven to you from scriptures that the wicked, including Satan, will be CONSUMED. To try and divert from this, you would be forced to try and prove to me that there is such thing as a dichotomization of the soul. But the Bible gives no such distinction. It always says "they", or "them"...not "their bodies only". When it says the wicked will be consumed, it is not referring to their bodies. It is referring to the totality of the personhood---the ENTIRE MAKEUP of what makes a person A PERSON.

    Once again, it is my invitation to you to abandon this Pagan, Spiritualistic doctrine, that is on par with believing in the Wizard of Oz, and is not Biblical!
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  2. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    if hell is temporary so is heaven, same word here for both

    Matthew 25:46
    46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    here are more verses where eternal is used for life....

    Matt 19:16 “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
    Matt 19:29 will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
    Matt 25:46 eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal
    Matt 25:46 punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mark 10:17 “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    Mark 10:30 with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
    Luke 10:25 “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
    Luke 16:9 they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.
    Luke 18:18 “ Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    Luke 18:30 this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
    John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
    John 3:16 in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; •
    John 4:14 him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
    John 4:36 eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice
    John 5:24 eternal life. • He does not come into judgment,
    John 5:39 eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
    John 6:27 but for the food that endures to eternal life,
    John 6:40 eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
    John 6:47 I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
    John 6:54 eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
    John 6:68 Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
    John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never * perish,
    John 12:25 life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life.
    John 17:2 to give • eternal life to all whom you have given him.
    John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God,
    Acts 13:46 eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
    Acts 13:48 and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
    Rom 2:7 honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
    Rom 5:21 eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Rom 6:22 leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
    Rom 6:23 but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ
    Rom 16:26 according to the command of the eternal God,
    2 Cor 4:17 eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, *
    2 Cor 4:18 but the things that are unseen are eternal.
    2 Cor 5:1 a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    Gal 6:8 the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,
    2 Thess 2:16 who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good
    1 Tim 1:16 those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
    1 Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal
    1 Tim 6:16 To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
    2 Tim 2:10 salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies,
    Titus 3:7 become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Heb 5:9 he became the source of eternal salvation to all
    Heb 6:2 the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
    Heb 9:12 own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
    Heb 9:14 who through the eternal Spirit offered himself
    Heb 9:15 eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that *
    Heb 13:20 by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip
    1 Pet 5:10 who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ,
    2 Pet 1:11 eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    1 John 3:15 that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
    1 John 5:11 that God gave us eternal life, and this life is
    1 John 5:13 God that you may know that you have eternal life.
    1 John 5:20 He is the true God and eternal life.
    Jude 7 example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
    Jude 21 our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
    Rev 14:6 with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  3. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    Nope. That's not how it works!

    Heaven is immortal, with immortal beings. Forever lasts as long as one shall last. Since heaven, and its beings are immortal, there is no end to the "eternal".

    But since wicked people are not immortal, the "forever" only lasts as long as the duration of a mortal being.

    The "forever" within the immortal sphere is endless.

    The "forever" within the mortal sphere comes to an end. As proven in multiple texts in the Old Testament concerning the usage of the word "for ever" to things that actually came to an end.

    Sodom and Gomorrah are used as an example of "eternal fire" in 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7:

    "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6)

    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)​

    Answer me this question:

    Did the fire and brimstone that came down out of heaven, which consumed Sodom and Gomorrah, come from God, yes or no?

    If yes, that fire that came down out of heaven was "eternal fire", from an "eternal God". Nobody can put it out. It is unquenchable. Only God can put it out. It is a "special" kind of fire that devours everything in its path. Nothing can stop it. It will only stop once there is nothing left to burn up.

    Now for the million dollar question:

    Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today??

    Answer: A RESOUNDING NO!

    They are nothing but PURE ASHES! Those ashes are the result of ETERNAL fire that came down FROM Heaven!

    These 2 texts ALONE, gradyll should settle the interpretation of all your texts once and for all.
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    My goodness. Is this topic really that complicated :D
  5. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer Christian Gnostic


    (18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
    Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."
  6. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    well then heaven isn't eternal either, same word for both.

    Matthew 25:46
    46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    Secondly I am unsure what you are getting at with your observation, are you saying because eternal meant temporary in one spot that that takes care of every occurrence of eternal? I don't think thats a very good argument, to say because it happened once it's therefore happening 100 percent.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  7. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

    Heaven is eternal because those who are there have received eternal life. Death is also eternal, because those who have not received eternal life do not get life, and the absence of life is death. Torture can not be eternal, because if it was it could only be performed on those who have eternal life, and they are all in heaven.
  8. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    Timothyw summed it up nicely above. :) Heaven possesses immortal beings, and immortality has no end. Mortality does have an end, but the consequences of dying without Christ is eternal death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in flames. Death is a cessation of existence. But according to the doctrine of eternal torment, it is truly not death. It is eternal life in hell. One cannot be "dead", yet conscious at the same time. Scriptures are clear that "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; and in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalms 146:4)

    If it were true that the spirit continues to exist at death, as a conscientious existing entity that can think and know what is going on around it, then truly, its thoughts did not "perish" at death, but "continued".

    All the righteous who have died in the Lord will rise in the First Resurrection. These will be "blessed" (Revelation 20:6) at the beginning of the 1000 years at the Second Coming. All who have died without Jesus and in their sins will rise in the "Second Resurrection" at the end of the 1000 years, to face the Great White Throne Judgment. This is why they will face the "second death"--because they died once before, either of natural causes or by the brightness of Christ's Second Coming. All wicked who have died prior to the millennium will not resurrect until the end of the millennium. There is no future resurrection after the second death.

    If you really think about it, to make the wicked burn forever creates the strangest incongruities in eschatological construct. All evangelical Christians who believe in eternal torment are forced to conclude the following:

    1. When a wicked person dies, his soul goes flying out of his body and into eternal pits of hell, to be punished in hell-fire.

    2. At the end of the millennium, when God pours out the Lake of Fire on the earth....all those wicked who were in hell are resurrected in "bodily form", only to be thrown RIGHT BACK into hell-fire AGAIN!

    Think about it: Does this make ANY logical sense? They were already in torment, now they must resurrect in bodily form, only for their bodies to get consumed, and then continue in hell-fire in the Lake of Fire forever, again.

    Uhh...what was the point?? o_O Doesn't sound very logical AT ALL!

    The truth is, NOBODY will burn in hell-fire until they have had a FAIR TRIAL! This fair trial takes place at the Great White Throne Judgment scene at the end of the millennium. Every wicked person slept during the millennium, while the righteous reigned with Christ in heaven during the 1000 years. The earth was left desolate during the 1000 years...this was the home of Satan...the "abysmal planet" known as the "bottomless pit" (abussos)...a chaotic and destroyed, lifeless, and uninhabited planet.

    Every single wicked person will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the same time. This is when there will be "nashing of teeth". This is when all the wicked receive fair punishment, according to their deeds. Some will burn longer than others. It all depends on how much knowledge they had and rejected.

    A native person from a tribe, for example, who never had the chance to hear about Jesus, I do not believe will burn as long, for example, as Hitler. Hitler will burn longer than a 12 year old boy who, although was good and did no harm to anyone, is still deserving of stripes because he did not give His life to God.

    Eventually, however, the Lake of Fire that covers the whole earth (where the wicked are burning) must be removed. After the Lake of Fire has purified the entire surface of the earth, and consumed all the elements, God will remove it to commence the process of His recreating the entire earth before the eyes of all the righteous beholders inside the city. :)

    The S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7 wraps it up nicely:

    "When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the Flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, He will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements." (3SG 87). {7BC 986.5}​

    Once you put the correct chronology in your mind, suddenly everything falls into place and makes perfect sense!

    I would propose that the above description makes perfect sense and aligns with the chronological construct as given in the Bible. :)

    In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

    Marcos :)
  9. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    thats a nice theory but scriptures state otherwise, but I would like to believe Hell is not eternal. Souls are all eternal because they are massless. The only things that are not eternal are things that have mass because matter can be destroyed. simply put.
  10. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    Only problem is the lake of fire being poured out doesnt' work with scripture. The renovation of the earth by fire is not the lake of fire. They are two different things like sodom and gommorah having hell fire pour down on it. But all souls are immortal because they are massless and only matter can be destroyed because the theory of relativity dictates that if we have no mass then we are outside of time domain and outside of decay or death. Thats why it takes an eternity to kill a soul in hell, because they are massless but conscious, like software is massless. You can't destroy software only save it. BUt you can upload it accross the air via wifi and not waste any energy, because it's massless and eternal as well. All information is eternal. Thats why God is the logos. The word.
  11. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    Where in scripture do you get this idea? You are limiting God. God can't destroy software? Can't God do anything?

    But you're missing the whole point. Let's look at this a bit closer:

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 says... "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

    This is proof that God had this spirit "before". Are we to borrow the Mormon belief (which came from Plato) that there is such thing as a "pre-existing soul"? By your logic, one would be forced to conclude that Adam was a self-conscious entity trekking through space in heaven before God took that soul and breathed it, trapping it into Adam's body. A notion too ridiculous to be entertained. Seriously, I can only pray that you will see the ridiculousness of this logic.

    Death is the exact REVERSE of Creation. The Spirit that goes to God is simply the "life-force", the "breath". It was God's before, but it was not a conscious entity. It was God's LIFE. God GAVE that LIFE FORCE. God can take that same computer software program and wire it back into the Brain, but that software is completely clueless without a brain to read it!!! God only has a record of it, but that record is not a floating conscious entity. It is just that, a RECORD. But it is a NON-FUNCTIONING RECORD.

    It is obviously clear from Revelation 20 that the Lake of Fire is formed from the fire that pours out of heaven. It is this fire that devours the wicked.

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

    You say: "all souls are immortal"

    Bible says: "souls that sin shall die"

    You are contradicting scripture!

    The problem with you evangelicals is that you read different descriptions in prophetic events, and then you conclude that they must be different events.

    This has to do with your utter failure to recognize the principles of "repetition and enlargement".

    For example, if one were to read Revelation 20 in perfect chronological order, one would have to conclude that there are 3 lakes of fires, 2 resurrections, and 2 judgments.

    No, John is not always necessary describing a different event....rather, he is "backing up", "repeating", and "adding more details" to fill in the blanks. And he does this ALL throughout the book of Revelation.

    Revelation is written in a "chiasm". If you read it perfect chronological order, you will literally go insane, and come to eschatological as well as theological shipwreck.

    Scriptures are clear that when the wicked enter into hell-fire, they will enter in bodily:

    "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:8,9)

    When are these wicked cast into hell, in bodily form?

    "So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:49,50)

    Nobody is thrown into fire before, and nobody experiences any fire before. This only happens at the END of the millennium.

    This is VERY simple!

    I have a proposal:

    Let's keep it simple, and quit trying to wiggle out of the simple truth of God's Word. People try to stretch all kinds of fanciful ideas, when it is VERY simple.
  12. Timothew

    Timothew Conditionalist

    I missed that verse in the bible. Could you direct me to the "Souls are all eternal because they are massless" verse in the bible?
  13. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    I don't believe in prexistent souls, souls are eternal from the time from the point of conception in the womb. As soon as they turn on. Only God can revoke a soul but souls are eternal anyway because just as you change the software in your computer, the changes are saved in the cache. So you can reverse it. It's the same with the soul, it has error correcting software with it. It never errors and is always in existence from the moment it is breathed into a physical body. But they don't exist prior to conception like the mormon belief. That would be just as wrong as saying hell is temporary in it's destroying ability.
  14. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    Then you obviously don't believe in death. If a soul goes on living, then there is no death of a person! Only death of part of the person, his body.

    Did you know that this was the first lie Satan ever told?

    "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4)

    This was Satan's FIRST lie ever told! And this lie has PERMEATED the ranks of Christianity!

    It is THIS LIE that will prove the undoing of the Fallen Christian World!

    How so?

    "For by thy SORCERIES were all nations deceived." (Revelation 18:23)

    The doctrine that the dead can go on living is a doctrine of spiritualism. It is the very door to spiritualism. And Satan KNOWS THIS!

    The doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul is probably one of, if not the most dangerous doctrines on the entire face of the planet, as it will deceive the masses when deceased "loved ones" will come to "aid" and "comfort" those, only to deceive them into succumbing to the Beast and receive its Mark.

    But these won't be "loved ones". These will be DEMONS!!!! Yes, one more time, DEMONS!!!

    This is how the Satan will gain a hold of the masses, through spiritualism, by performing "MIRACLES" (Rev 13:14; 16:14; 19:20).

    Only those who do not believe in the Immortality of the Soul will be more effectively guarded against such a deception that will go beyond monumental proportions!

    Transgression has almost reached its limit. Confusion fills the world, and a great terror is soon to come upon human beings. The end is very near. We who know the truth should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise!

    gradyll, I beg you to please find time to read this article:

    The Immortal Soul Doctrine is The Devil's Door to Spiritualism

    And I will finally conclude with the following:

    "(16) And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there. (17) I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. (18) I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. (19) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (20) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth UPWARD, and the spirit of the beast that goeth DOWNWARD to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:16-21)​

    There are 4 crucial points I want you to notice in the above passage:

    1. The subject is concerning BOTH the righteous AND the wicked.

    2. All men, righteous and wicked, return to dust in the EXACT same manner as the animals (or beasts).

    3. Man has no preeminence over a beast a death, as all go down to dust.

    4. There is only one difference: The spirit of a man goes UPWARD, and the spirit of a beast goes DOWNWARD. What does this mean? It means that the life of a man goes on record to face the judgment at the Second Resurrection. This data will be reprogrammed right back into the minds of those who are resurrected. Animals will not face the judgment.

    Animals also have souls (Revelation 16:3). (Remember, by your logic, if souls can't die, neither can the souls of animals).


    If you were to conclude that this spirit that goes "upward" means the Spirit goes to heaven in a conscious entity, you would be forced to conclude that a there are wicked souls in heaven!

    So even the spirits of wicked men go upward, not downward into hell.

    Are we to conclude that the spirits of animals go down into hell-fire? Poor animals!! :(

    You get the point. ;)

    Bottomline: When you die, you die. And your next conscious thought is the resurrection. There is NO consciousness of time between death and the resurrection. None. Zero. Zilch. It is tantamount to "blinking your eye!". 10,000 years could transpire between the time you died and the resurrection, and it would feel NO DIFFERENT from the person who died one day prior to the resurrection.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2011
  15. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    "But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:7-10)

    According to this passage in Job, even animals are "souls". Since souls are "immortal", are we to conclude that the souls of animals are immortal too? Scriptures teach that that which befalls beasts is the very same thing that befalls human beings.
  16. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    if animals have souls, if it is a old testament word for spirit which means breath of life it could mean that they were living beings. But if they do have souls which I am unsure of. They might possibly be part of heaven, we know they will be in the millenium (lion lies with the lamb). But we will be riding on horses when we come back with the Lord at the second coming.
  17. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    don't misunderstand me, I believe the soul that sinneth shall die. (if not saved) but they will eternally die. The beast was there with the prophet for a thousand years from the beginning of the millenium till the end and we know they were still there because (satan was caste in the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are).
  18. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    United States
    Just logic, like hermeneutic. Souls are the breath of life, breath has mass but a very small mass. Like nothing is the point. The soul that is born again is like the wind ( you know not from where it comes or where it goes) but in a vacume of course (no mass that way).
  19. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer Christian Gnostic

    Going to "Heaven" is not biblical.
  20. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    1. I do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only saints that will be returning with Christ are those Old Testament saints who were resurrected and went to heaven at Christ's ascension in 31 A.D. But they went to heaven in bodily form, not disincarnated spirits.

    2. The Biblical word for "saints" has also been used for "angels" (Deut 33:2; 1 Thess 3:13)

    3. The white horses are symbolic of purity. Nobody will be physically/literally riding on horses at the Second Coming. The only place horses are mentioned in connection with the Second Coming is in Revelation, but nowhere does Jesus in any of the gospel accounts mention horses at the Second Coming. Only clouds, a trumpet, and angels.

    4. The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium. The Second Coming is when the rapture occurs, leaving the earth void and desolate for 1000 years. At the end of the millennium, Christ and all the saints return back to the earth in the New Jerusalem, to hold the judgment of the wicked, and the saints will reign with Christ on the earth for ever and ever.

    I believe in "heavenly premillennialism". The earth is left void and desolate, save for Satan and his demonic hosts who are trapped on this "abussos" for 1000 years.
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