Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[Lysimachus]

I found this pretty interesting!

BiblePlaces Blog: The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

 

[Pythons]

I found this pretty interesting!

BiblePlaces Blog: The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

Only the specific current location of the valley of Hinnom is under dispute...
...That it was an actual place has never been.
...In any event that blog does nothing to lesson the reality.

 

[Lysimachus]

Only the specific current location of the valley of Hinnom is under dispute...
...That it was actual place has never been.
...In any event that blog does nothing to lesson the reality.

Oh I know, it doesn't do anything to lesson the reality. I just thought the article was interesting.

I do find some elements, however, in favor of annihilationism.

According to the myth, there was a "perpetual burning garbage dump" that was always burning.

However, it appears that the Valley of Hinom was a pagan place of sacrifices, where they sacrificed their sons and daughters by burning them with fire.

One thing is for sure. Fire is not burning where worms are. If the fire was still going, the worms would burn with the fire. It is not until after the fire has finished burning up the bodies that the worms feast off that which remains.

I certainly do believe in a literal fire, and it will be hot. I believe the wicked will suffer intensely. But the Bible texts used to support eternal torment of disembodied souls/spirits is elusive at best.

I have always found it interesting how in every single instance where Revelation mentions fire burning forever and ever, that it is always in context of the harlot, beast, or false prophet burning. It thus seems appropriate that symbolic language for the duration of suffering is employed for those symbolic figures receiving the punishment.

 

[Pythons]

Oh I know, it doesn't do anything to lesson the reality. I just thought the article was interesting.

Ok, fair enough.

I do find some elements, however, in favor of annihilationism.

Always happy to look at elements.

According to the myth, there was a "perpetual burning garbage dump" that was always burning.

I tend to favor the understanding that it was known as a cursed place...
...Where children were sacrificed to "Molech".
...As it was understood to be a cursed place I'm sure people dumped garbage there.

However, it appears that the Valley of Hinom was a pagan place of sacrifices, where they sacrificed their sons and daughters by burning them with fire.

One thing is for sure. Fire is not burning where worms are. If the fire was still going, the worms would burn with the fire. It is not until after the fire has finished burning up the bodies that the worms feast of that which remains.

I certainly do believe in a literal fire, and it will be hot. I believe the wicked will suffer intensely. But the Bible texts used to support eternal torment of disembodied souls/spirits is elusive at best.

I have always found it interesting how in every single instance where Revelation mentions fire burning forever and ever, that it is always in context of the harlot, beast, or false prophet burning. It thus seems appropriate that symbolic language for the duration of suffering is employed for those symbolic figures receiving the punishment.

We agree that hell is literal however I noticed you said in speaking of that fire...
...That it "WILL be hot", as in future tense.
...This is the whole crux of the discussion isn't it.

This from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).​

Read more: JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

​

This was my point with Timothew - that the Sadducee concept of the spirits of dead people being unconscious or not existing...
...Equates to their never having lived.
...Or putting it like Jesus did, "never been born". Matthew 26,24

If an individual rejects Christ in the Adventist / Sadducee theological construct and dies...
...In the intermediate state between the death of the body AND the Resurrection.
...That person in THAT time hack becomes as if "they were never born".
...& subsequent to the General Judgment that same person in the Adventist construct.
...Gets burned into nothing and totally ceases to exist and AGAIN becomes as if they had never been born.

I'm saying this Sadduceeish rubric makes a mockery of Christ's teachings because...
...According to the rubric Judas would become as if he was never born, TWICE!
...Once at the death of the body up through to the General Judgment THAN AGAIN after he is cast into hell.
...Where the Adventist groups insist a loving God burns up the lost and they cease to exist.
...And become as if they never existed in the first place.

Even worse than that they boldly affirm that Christ could have mutated from perfect God...
...Into a sinning Christ with the end result of "God" throwing Christ into hell after God wakes Christ up from soul sleep.
...Then Christ would be totally burned up and forever cease to exist and become "as if He never existed in the 1st place"!
...What a thought!

The unfortunate reality is that EVERY denomination which advocates "the dead know nothing", "Jesus was unconscious in the tomb", etc....
...Share this horrific maggoty teaching.
...Which violates the Creed ( which is based off Scripture ) with a vigor past that of a pedophile loosed in a Chuck-E-Cheese.

As for the "worm".

Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies

1) to extinguish, quench
a) of fire or things on fire
1) to be quenched, to go out

The only way for a worm to remain is if it continues to have something to eat....
...Combine that with a fire that will never go out.
...And you end up with a body that always has something for worms to eat & a fire which is never quenched.

It does not matter if these things are taken in a literal sense or figurative...
...The end result is a "state" that is contrasted as much as anything could be.
...With "eternal life".

A spiritual existence in hell would be only be a fore-taste....
...It's ONLY after the Resurrection one enters into eternal life OR eternal death.

 

[Timothew]

What I said was that YOUR VIEW on the intermediate state of man between death of the body & Resurrection...
...Is EXACTLY that of the Sadducees

.

Pythons, How can my view of the resurrection be exactly like the Sadducees when they deny that there is a resurrection and with every post I PROCLAIM THE RESURRECTION?

Sadducees=Say there is No Resurrection.
Me=Says there is a resurrection.

This is completely opposite, not the same. OPPOSITE.

I don't know how else to say it to you. You are not understanding the words I write. Are you just playing games?

 

[Pythons]

.

Pythons, How can my view of the resurrection be exactly like the Sadducees when they deny that there is a resurrection and with every post I PROCLAIM THE RESURRECTION?

Sadducees=Say there is No Resurrection.
Me=Says there is a resurrection.

You keep failing to mention that the Sadducees ALSO rejected the soul of man continues on after death...
...The point is that when you say the spirit of a dead person knows nothing.
...In that period between death & the Resurrection.
...Your affirmation is SPOT ON with the Sadducees.

This is completely opposite, not the same. OPPOSITE.

I don't know how else to say it to you. You are not understanding the words I write. Are you just playing games?

Knowing what you now know of how ALL Jews ( except the Sadducees ) believed...
...Between the Sadducees and Pharisees ( Jesus, Paul, etc ).
...Which group are you more closely associated with WHEREAS this issue is concerned?

Some help.

Pharisees: Believed in the Resurrection of the body and immortal soul.

Historic Christianity: Belives in the Resurrection of the body and immortal soul.

Sadducees: Did NOT believe in the Resurrection of the body OR immortal soul.

Timothew ( Adventist theology ): Believes in the Resurrection of the body - does NOT believe that the soul is immortal.


I'll be frank here and say if this ONE topic was all there was to the Christian Faith....
...And the Pharisees, Jesus & the Apostles believed in a spiritual afterlife PRIOR to the Resurrection of the body.
...And the Sadducees rejected BOTH the Resurrection of the body And man's spirit continuing on.
...Between the Pharisees and Sadducees which group would you be theologically closer to?

I can assure you that you are theologically closer to the Sadducees simply because Jesus....
...Never corrected the Pharisees on their belief in 'ghosts'.
...While Jesus, with velocity, corrected the Sadducees for NOT believing in ghosts.

I am not playing games here.

 

[Timothew]

Pharisees: Believed in the Resurrection of the body and immortal soul.

Historic Christianity: Believes in the Resurrection of the body on the last day.

Sadducees: Did NOT believe in the Resurrection of the body OR immortal soul.

I fixed the 3 choices, in order to be more accurate. I picked Historic Christianity.

Read this statement. It is what I believe.

I believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Note also what the Nicene Creed does not say. It does not say that human souls rise to heaven when they die. It does not say that sinful souls go to the fiery pit of hell when they die. It does say that that we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

You are assuming Historic Christianity includes the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.

 

[Timothew]

I am not Adventist, so please stop with the name calling. How would you like it if I called you Mormon? I will if you keep calling me Adventist.

 

[Pythons]

Pharisees: Believed in the Resurrection of the body and immortal soul.

Historic Christianity: Believes in the Resurrection of the body on the last day.

Sadducees: Did NOT believe in the Resurrection of the body OR immortal soul.

I fixed the 3 choices, in order to be more accurate. I picked Historic Christianity.

There you go again with removing the twin sister belief of the Sadducees...
...How many times is it now that you've done that.
...Does the Bible or does the Bible not say the Sadducees did NOT believe in ghosts?
...If you can't deal with the reality that the Bible says the early Christians and Christ taught the soul is immortal.
...At least say you don't have the answer.

Instead of listing Scriptures which directly mention this belief after REMOVING whole sentences...
...Come on now.

Read this statement. It is what I believe.

I believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

**May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Note also what the Nicene Creed does not say. It does not say that human souls rise to heaven when they die. It does not say that sinful souls go to the fiery pit of hell when they die. It does say that that we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

You are assuming Historic Christianity includes the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.

You should have completed the creed Timothew....
...You seem to have a habbit of doing this.

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church

Is that part of the Nicene Creed or not....
...Do you believe this was added by people outside of the Council who forumulated the creed?

You do realize that the Apostles Creed predates the Nicene Creed, right?

 

[Pythons]

I am not Adventist, so please stop with the name calling. How would you like it if I called you Mormon? I will if you keep calling me Adventist.

In this area you are theologically Adventist Timothew....
...And please don't say I'm calling you an SDA.
...Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG, SDA's and each groups offshoots.
...Are ALL "Adventist" in theology.

If it helps you post, feel free to call me a Mormon - it seriously does not matter what you call me...
...I'm simply saying on the issue of hell and the spirit of man.
...YOU AGREE with the Sadducees and Adventist Denominations.

I left you more than a few Scriptures with my logic for using them....
...Perhaps you should say why I'm not reading them right.
...Instead of pretending the Bible does not say what it does.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Timothew I am not Adventist, so please stop with the name calling. How would you like it if I called you Mormon? I will if you keep calling me Adventist.

In this area you are theologically Adventist Timothew....<snip>.

I decided to go to the 2 SDA boards to find out more of their view on hell, but found very little being discussed on "hell".
These are the only threads I could find

Traditional Adventists - Christian Forums
Traditional Adventists The forum for Adventist members.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6696279/
the Concept of Hell Within The Adventist Church.

Progressive/Moderate Adventists - Christian Forums
Progressive/Moderate Adventists A forum for Progressive/Moderate Adventists.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411644-18/#post53289768
Destiny of former SDAs -- Heaven or Hell?

http://www.christianforums.com/t2462490/#post21029584
Comments on Hell (to be revised soon)

 

[Heavens]

I was looking for you lamb, and here I found you over in hell lol. It isn't very hot here right now though, thankfully. Whatcha trying to raise here anyway? hehe

 

[Pythons]

I decided to go to the 2 SDA boards to find out more of their view on hell, but found very little being discussed on "hell".
These are the only threads I could find

Traditional Adventists - Christian Forums
Traditional Adventists The forum for Adventist members.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6696279/
the Concept of Hell Within The Adventist Church.

Progressive/Moderate Adventists - Christian Forums
Progressive/Moderate Adventists A forum for Progressive/Moderate Adventists.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411644-18/#post53289768
Destiny of former SDAs -- Heaven or Hell?

http://www.christianforums.com/t2462490/#post21029584
Comments on Hell (to be revised soon)

That's because hell is viewed as a temporary thing....
...SDA's believe at death the person be they just or unjust.
...Becomes totally unconscious and as if they were never born.
...At the Resurrection of the dead the person becomes conscious then.
...The saved enter into eternal life while the lost simply burn into nothing and again become as if they were never born.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I was looking for you lamb, and here I found you over in hell lol. It isn't very hot here right now though, thankfully. Whatcha trying to raise here anyway? hehe

Unless ye become as children

KJV) 2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which [is] in the valley of the children of Hinnom,
that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.

YouTube - CHILD ABUSE-HELL IS FOR CHILDREN

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's because hell is viewed as a temporary thing....
...SDA's believe at death the person be they just or unjust.
...Becomes totally unconscious and as if they were never born.
...At the Resurrection of the dead the person becomes conscious then.
...The saved enter into eternal life while the lost simply burn into nothing and again become as if they were never born.

Isn't that what Reve 20:13 is saying

Reve 20:13 And the Sea gives up the in her dead.
And the Death and the Hades give up the in them dead.
And they were judged each according the works of them
14 And the Death and the Hades were cast into the lake of the fire. This the Death, the Second, is the Lake of the fire

http://www.christianforums.com/t5239077/
Need help with Books Opened in Reve 20

 

[Lysimachus]

I am not Adventist, so please stop with the name calling. How would you like it if I called you Mormon? I will if you keep calling me Adventist.

It's all good Tim, but I just hope you aren't comparing Mormons with Adventists. The differences between Mormons and Adventists are as different as midnight is to the noonday sun.

Mormons are descendants of Joseph Smith. Adventists existed long before Ellen White had her first visions, and were a conglomerate of Protestants from numerous denominations who studied intensely into the doctrines of the Second Coming of Christ, coming to the same conclusions.

But keep going, you're doing good at exposing the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and cessation of the wicked in the lake of fire.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's all good Tim, but I just hope you aren't comparing Mormons with Adventists. The differences between Mormons and Adventists are as different as midnight is to the noonday sun.

Mormons are descendants of Joseph Smith. Adventists existed long before Ellen White had her first visions, and were a conglomerate of Protestants from numerous denominations who studied intensely into the doctrines of the Second Coming of Christ, coming to the same conclusions.

But keep going, you're doing good at exposing the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and cessation of the wicked in the lake of fire.

I fail to see much difference betwix the 2

2 Peter 2:1 There became yet also False Prophets in the people, as also in ye shall be FalseTeachers, whoany shall be carrying in sects of destruction. And the One buying them, Owner/Master/despothn <1203>, disowning, bringing on them swift destruction. [Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4]

Reve 6:10 And they cry out to a great voice saying "how long, the Owner/Master/despothV <1203> the Holy and True,
not Thou are judging and avenging the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"

 

[Timothew]

I wasn't comparing Adventists to Mormons, I was just objecting to the name-calling. Python doesn't have a case so he resorts to name calling. I think I'll start calling him a spiritist. Its all in good fun and he believes the same thing the spiritists believe anyway. Perhaps he will hold a seance for us and rap the table. Granpa Jones can you hear me? Woo Woo, I'm scared now, I just saw a glowing light, it must be a ghost.

 

[Timothew]

In this area you are theologically Adventist Timothew....
...And please don't say I'm calling you an SDA.
...Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, WWCOG, SDA's and each groups offshoots.
...Are ALL "Adventist" in theology.

If it helps you post, feel free to call me a Mormon - it seriously does not matter what you call me...
...I'm simply saying on the issue of hell and the spirit of man.
...YOU AGREE with the Sadducees and Adventist Denominations.

I left you more than a few Scriptures with my logic for using them....
...Perhaps you should say why I'm not reading them right.
...Instead of pretending the Bible does not say what it does.

You are a Spiritualist according to this definition:
Spiritualism is a dualist metaphysical belief that the world is made up of at least two fundamental substances, matter and spirit. This very broad metaphysical distinction is further developed into many and various forms by the inclusion of details about what spiritual entities exist such as a soul, the afterlife, spirits of the dead, deities and mediums; as well as details about the nature of the relationship between spirit and matter. It may also refer to the philosophy, doctrine, or religion pertaining to a spiritual aspect of existence.[1]
It is also a term commonly used for various psychic or paranormal practices and beliefs recorded throughout humanity's history[2][3] and in a variety of cultures.[4][5]
Spiritualistic traditions appear deeply rooted in shamanism and, as such, are perhaps the oldest forms of religion. Mediumship is a modern form of shamanism and such ideas are very much like those developed by Edward Burnett Tylor in his theory of animism,[6] where there are other worlds parallel to our own, though invisible to us and not accessible to us in our state. The connecting link between these worlds is the psychic. A person endowed with exceptional sensitivity to the occult dimension, who experiences visions and revelations.

Sorry, Pythons, but I do not subcribe to your occult beliefs. I asked you to stop name calling but you would not.

 

[Timothew]

It's all good Tim, but I just hope you aren't comparing Mormons with Adventists. The differences between Mormons and Adventists are as different as midnight is to the noonday sun.

Mormons are descendants of Joseph Smith. Adventists existed long before Ellen White had her first visions, and were a conglomerate of Protestants from numerous denominations who studied intensely into the doctrines of the Second Coming of Christ, coming to the same conclusions.

But keep going, you're doing good at exposing the doctrine of the immortality of the soul and cessation of the wicked in the lake of fire.

Next Pythons will say that Saint Paul is Adventist.