Let's start at the beginning... Is there a God who knows absolutely everything...?

[Valetic]

Does not even God know what His future beholds?

I imagine he does... but... what is your point...?

God Bless!

I guess it doesn't really answer the questions in the OP, however if it is true then that means even God Himself is susceptible to predestination, not even He can escape (I don't mean that in a condescending way by the way). I just find it very fascinating. I have heard that there is no time with God. Also there is no point in time, space, Heaven, or even beyond where His presence is not present (other than the places and people separated from Himself). The whole concept of freedom, knowing this, is mind boggling to me. Not even God could escape His own prophecy! Nothing is new to Him. Yet He has all power, ability, knowledge, wisdom, and a myriad of other adjectives that describe His Might. He is totally free, yet He is bound to the "program" or sequence in which all events shall occur. Is freedom really freedom? This is what I have yet to discover.

 

[dreadnought]

If there is a God who knows all our decisions, actions, ect, "all of them", long before we ever decide them, how can we have free will...?

And, if by that, he knows where "all" is going to be, what it is going to be doing, at every and all moments in time, ect... How can this be if there are multiple possibilities and not just one possibility and only one possible course for all (things, people, ect)...? Only one way it can really go...?

How can there really be free will, if he (God) did this (set this all in motion) and fully knew all of this from the very beginning...?

God Bless!

I am not convinced the Lord knows our decisions and actions before they occur. I believe the Lord knows all that has happened, and knows all our thoughts. He's good at predicting things. Still, though it is possible he does know all things in advance, I'm not convinced he does.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let's start at the beginning... Is there a God who knows absolutely everything...?

And, I mean "everything"...?

And, if so, how so...?

And, what does he do with this knowledge...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Also this:

Is he Christ, and/or is he (also maybe) (or not), is he YHWH...?

If he's not as Jesus or as a man, then, why is that...?

And then, if he is YHWH, then why does it not seem like it in the OT...?

Then, also...?

How do you say God knows "absolutely everything", and I mean "everything", and yet we still have free will...?

How does that work...?

God Bless!

I have heard it said that God knows everything He wants to know but that is sidestepping the question. This attribute of his nature or ability is in the same category as Him having all power or being all present or hearing and seeing everything going on on the earth all the time. It is beyond us to really understand it. We should not make then choices based on information we cannot really understand in its implications in detail.

Now Him knowing is not Him causing. If you drop a hammer, you know it will fall downwards. You do not therefore cause it to do so nor are you limiting the possiblity of it falling anywhere else but downwards. It I prepare a plate of spagetti sauce poured over living white worms, I know the reaction my children will have. I am not, however, causing that reaction. The chemist knows what will happen if they mix certain chemicals. Does not mean he or she is causing it nor limiting the possible outcomes wildly. Knowing is not causing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I guess it doesn't really answer the questions in the OP, however if it is true then that means even God Himself is susceptible to predestination, not even He can escape (I don't mean that in a condescending way by the way). I just find it very fascinating. I have heard that there is no time with God. Also there is no point in time, space, Heaven, or even beyond where His presence is not present (other than the places and people separated from Himself). The whole concept of freedom, knowing this, is mind boggling to me. Not even God could escape His own prophecy! Nothing is new to Him. Yet He has all power, ability, knowledge, wisdom, and a myriad of other adjectives that describe His Might. He is totally free, yet He is bound to the "program" or sequence in which all events shall occur. Is freedom really freedom? This is what I have yet to discover.

It would be better to realize that God had plans and gave his servants prophesies so they would be informed and He stuck to the plans he had already decided to do. He is not therefore "bound" or predestination as you put it. It is somewhat like a man who loves a woman more than any person he has ever loved is bound or predestined to marry her on the agreed upon date because is susceptiable to the prechosen plan. He would not see it that way. The man would not agree that this describes his situation. You describe it as something limiting and negative. Those who love do not see it that way.

 

[Colter]

I'm glad someone is tracking with me...

Do you think there is a Lucifer who became/becomes Satan in every creation, or for each Son (of the universal Father)... Do you think there is a Lucifer who became/becomes Satan in every creation, or for each Son of God/God the Son of every creation...? and that they (each creation) are all kind of very similar, or each kind of all "go", in kind of the same, or very similar kinds of way(s) in those creations...? With man and angels and the God (or Sons of the universal Father) in/of each of those creations...? Or, IOW's, does, or is each one designed to go in kind of the very same, or in very kind of very similar ways...?

God Bless!

In my theology when Jesus said "I have sheep not of this fold, I must bring them also" he was referring to the nearly 10,000,000 inhabited worlds under his creatorship. The Urantia revelation teaches that 38 worlds entered into the Lucifer rebellion and were quarantined, cut off from the planetary circuits. In order to do so Lucifer had to corrupt the resident celestial ruler of those 38 worlds. Satan was Lucifer's assistant, they are two different beings.


The rebellion was against the Universal Father. The sons of the Son live by faith in the Father, they know the Son. Lucifer was brilliant and had served loyally for quite a long time until self contemplation got the best of him.


So, to answer your question, while this kind of rebellion is very rare in our massive universe, it can happen. It is a matter that is still under adjudication.


But Christ proved Lucifer to be a liar as his vast creation watched his incarnate life on our tiny little planet, the least among 10,000,000.

 

[Colter]

Are the Son's of the universal father as great as him...?

Or are they (the Son's) just maybe a little more limited and maybe just a bit slightly less than him (universal Father) but still very great...?

And if so, in what ways...? And can we see that in the Bible...?

God Bless!

The Creator Sons embody much of the attributes of their Paradise parents, but the Universal Father is the ONLY Universal Father.


These things are only hinted at in the Bible. Certainly the life of Jesus reveals some amazing stuff!

 

[Blade]

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do... all things.. hmm

Controls.. theres this bubble we all live in.. in this bubble we are free. Yet only within this bubble. So as He may not if I do not allow Him to control me..its only within this bubble.. theres a limit. This will all fade away. If God were to lets say step away.. nothing would be here. So CONTROL.. hmm

 

[Ron Gurley]

Job 11:7
“ Can you discover the depths of God?
Can you discover the limits of the Almighty?

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time.
He has also set eternity in the human heart; (spirit)
yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding (wisdom?) no one can fathom.

Zechariah 12: 1b (NASB)
Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the spirit of man within him,

1 Corinthians 2: 6-10
...but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood;...
For to us God revealed them (things unseen) through the Spirit; (God the Holy Spirit)
for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God....

 

[Valetic]

In my theology when Jesus said "I have sheep not of this fold, I must bring them also" he was referring to the nearly 10,000,000 inhabited worlds under his creatorship. The Urantia revelation teaches that 38 worlds entered into the Lucifer rebellion and were quarantined, cut off from the planetary circuits. In order to do so Lucifer had to corrupt the resident celestial ruler of those 38 worlds. Satan was Lucifer's assistant, they are two different beings.


The rebellion was against the Universal Father. The sons of the Son live by faith in the Father, they know the Son. Lucifer was brilliant and had served loyally for quite a long time until self contemplation got the best of him.


So, to answer your question, while this kind of rebellion is very rare in our massive universe, it can happen. It is a matter that is still under adjudication.


But Christ proved Lucifer to be a liar as his vast creation watched his incarnate life on our tiny little planet, the least among 10,000,000.

I did some research on this stuff and I used to be a follower of similar teachings shortly after being born again. I'm not too convinced these kinds of teachings were even thought up before the teachings of evolution came about. They totally contradict the bible as far as biblical creation is concerned. If the bible truly is God's written word then there is no reason that word would be corrupted other than through the English translations. If you believe that everything was created in 6 days and believe the earth is about 6000 years old then the urantia isn't for the typical Christian. I don't mean to bash it or anything but it's simply not sound Christian doctrine.

 

[Ron Gurley]

BUT:

Here is "GOD" of the Bible and spirit-led writings
which refect His "meaning" and nature and SPIRITUAL essence and character and attributes.

1. Existent (Spirit Being)
2. Unified (not in different parts)
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...pure
4. Infinite (no Beginning, no End)
5. Eternal (beyond limits of time and space)
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER (immutable)
7. All Present (spiritually everywhere and available)...omnipresent
8. All Sovereign (rules over/in complete control of {as He directs all things vs. all}
9. All Knowing (Omniscience...perfect wisdom)
10.All powerful (Omnipotence...God Almighty)
11.Perfectly JUST (fairness in His JUDGMENT of ALL SPIRITS)
12.Perfectly LOVING / Merciful (God IS Love;undeserved help for the afflicted)
13.Perfectly TRUE / Truthful (always truth-telling, inerrant)
14.Perfectly FREE (from sin and unrestricted power
15.Perfectly Separate (to mark off from others by boundaries)

 

[Neogaia777]

In my theology when Jesus said "I have sheep not of this fold, I must bring them also" he was referring to the nearly 10,000,000 inhabited worlds under his creatorship. The Urantia revelation teaches that 38 worlds entered into the Lucifer rebellion and were quarantined, cut off from the planetary circuits. In order to do so Lucifer had to corrupt the resident celestial ruler of those 38 worlds. Satan was Lucifer's assistant, they are two different beings.


The rebellion was against the Universal Father. The sons of the Son live by faith in the Father, they know the Son. Lucifer was brilliant and had served loyally for quite a long time until self contemplation got the best of him.


So, to answer your question, while this kind of rebellion is very rare in our massive universe, it can happen. It is a matter that is still under adjudication.


But Christ proved Lucifer to be a liar as his vast creation watched his incarnate life on our tiny little planet, the least among 10,000,000.

I am only concerned with this creation... Why it/they (fallen creations) became fallen...? Why it/they (fallen creations) had to become fallen...? Why the universal Father even made it/them (fallen creations) or allowed it/them in the first place knowing it/they would become fallen (for a time)...? And the (ultimate) plans he has around that, and with all of us, including God the Son, or our God of this creation (Christ/YHWH) (and, again, with all of us, in those fallen creations)... Ect, Ect...?

If there is some purpose to fallen creations and their temporary fallen states, ect...?

What is the ultimate purpose or plan with and to them all (fallen creations)...? Will there finally be a day when we will finally understand why all the bad...? Why bad things have to happen to and with people, ect...?

And will finally see the very much, much greater and higher and much greater good that comes out of it/them (fallen creations) and to all the bad that happens in them, and with and to people in them (fallen creations)...?

Got any insights on or into that maybe...?

God Bless!

 

[Colter]

I did some research on this stuff and I used to be a follower of similar teachings shortly after being born again. I'm not too convinced these kinds of teachings were even thought up before the teachings of evolution came about. They totally contradict the bible as far as biblical creation is concerned. If the bible truly is God's written word then there is no reason that word would be corrupted other than through the English translations. If you believe that everything was created in 6 days and believe the earth is about 6000 years old then the urantia isn't for the typical Christian. I don't mean to bash it or anything but it's simply not sound Christian doctrine.

Holy men wrote the Bible. The false doctrine that God wrote it has stunted the intellectual and spiritual growth of mankind. Even within the Bible mans thinking or understanding of God changes over time.

Jesus' original gospel was rejected and he was killed because he was different than the so called word of God that the holy men wrote. They treated the prophets before them the same way.

 

[Neogaia777]

Holy men wrote the Bible. The false doctrine that God wrote it has stunted the intellectual and spiritual growth of mankind. Even within the Bible mans thinking or understanding of God changes over time.

Jesus' original gospel was rejected and he was killed because he was different than the so called word of God that the holy men wrote. They treated the prophets before them the same way.

Those men wrote about God what they were claiming they heard, or were hearing from God about God though...?

So then, were they lying...? Or was it a wrong voice that they heard, or what...? Or do you think it was just them, or what...?

God Bless!

 

[Colter]

I am only concerned with this creation... Why it/they (fallen creations) became fallen...? Why it/they (fallen creations) had to become fallen...? Why the universal Father even made it/them (fallen creations) or allowed it/them in the first place knowing it/they would become fallen (for a time)...? And the (ultimate) plans he has around that, and with all of us, including God the Son, or our God of this creation (Christ/YHWH) (and, again, with all of us, in those fallen creations)... Ect, Ect...?

If there is some purpose to fallen creations and their temporary fallen states, ect...?

What is the ultimate purpose or plan with and to them all (fallen creations)...? Will there finally be a day when we will finally understand why all the bad...? Why bad things have to happen to and with people, ect...?

And will finally see the very much, much greater and higher and much greater good that comes out of it/them (fallen creations) and to all the bad that happens in them, and with and to people in them (fallen creations)...?

Got any insights on or into that maybe...?

God Bless!

First, outside of Gods eternal perfection there is always the possibility of error, even among those high beings like Lucifer.


Why though did the Son, aka Jesus Christ, allow the rebellion? Its a difficult thing to ponder, so many have been lost to Lucifer's atheist battle against the existence and rule of the Universal Father.


Answer: So many trusting and otherwise innocent beings could not comprehend that Lucifer could be wrong in his conclusions. To summarily stop Lucifer's rebellion may have lead to more to take up his cause. Do we not still have Satan worshipers on earth?????????


But you are right, the net result has already been the triumph of faith over doubt during such treachery. While not necessary to spiritual growth, more good has come out of the matter.


People are under the false assumption that men would not be capable of error or sin had our trusted administrators not fallen. That Just isn't true.

 

[Colter]

Those men wrote about God what they were claiming they heard, or were hearing from God about God though...?

So then, were they lying...? Or was it a wrong voice that they heard, or what...? Or do you think it was just them, or what...?

God Bless!

They were originally oral traditions for the common man. Then when writing came along the holy men wrote them down. Over time they were edited and rewritten. Much of the OT was finalized in Babylon. Upon the return the priest class established their ruling authority on the sacred scripture. From their the Israelites traditional history and presumptive destiny was forever set.

 

[Neogaia777]

Holy men wrote the Bible. The false doctrine that God wrote it has stunted the intellectual and spiritual growth of mankind. Even within the Bible mans thinking or understanding of God changes over time.

Jesus' original gospel was rejected and he was killed because he was different than the so called word of God that the holy men wrote. They treated the prophets before them the same way.

I think the verse you are speaking of and are basing that off of (can't find it right now, but I remember it well) Anyway, I think that is talking about how the Jews, or the Pharisees in Jesus day had become like the false prophets of old in the OT...

And is talking about how those false prophets (in those days and time periods in the OT) (where the priesthood had become very, very corrupt) How those false prophets (and corrupt priesthood) treated the real true prophets God sent to them in those periods of times in the OT, which some (real, true prophets) (The ones they couldn't kill, or do away with, or silence fast enough) some are in, and are a part of, and are in, the OT for us...

Prophets Like Daniel, Jeremiah, Elijah, ect... Unless your suggesting that those ones, and others like them in the OT, were not "true prophets"...?

Are you...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

They were originally oral traditions for the common man. Then when writing came along the holy men wrote them down. Over time they were edited and rewritten.

They had some very strict rules, and great fear of God in "Changing" it/them at all though... One was put to death if they made even one single word or letter mistake or error in copying them...

Much of the OT was finalized in Babylon. Upon the return the priest class established their ruling authority on the sacred scripture. From their the Israelites traditional history and presumptive destiny was forever set.

That was not a corrupt priesthood at that time, and how they were about making any mistakes in even copying, let alone "changing" anything, well...?

Moses wrote the Torah, and wrote it all down, in his day and age while he was alive (They had writing then)... And the way they treated that Torah, and all books written after it (first written down during their/those times and days) was in such high regard that making even one mistake in even copying it/them, let alone changing it, was punishable by death...

So, I don't think it changed much from the originals...

Kind David had the scrolls and read them, so did Cyrus, and that was before Babylon...

God Bless!

 

[Valetic]

Holy men wrote the Bible. The false doctrine that God wrote it has stunted the intellectual and spiritual growth of mankind. Even within the Bible mans thinking or understanding of God changes over time.

Jesus' original gospel was rejected and he was killed because he was different than the so called word of God that the holy men wrote. They treated the prophets before them the same way.

Everyone knows God in heaven didn't write the entire bible personally. I do believe the writers were inspired of God and honestly it might as well be as if God himself wrote it. God wrote the 10 commandments. I'd even be willing to go so far as to say that God himself wrote genesis chapter 1, and that Adam wrote chapter 2.

The only time peoples "understanding of God" changed throughout the bible is when new covenants were instituted and inspired by God to men. And from my reading through the OT there weren't any major changes to people's understanding of God, He is the ancient of days and he does not change. Jesus was God in the flesh I believe. And His teachings for everyone were perfect. He could even read peoples thoughts. So to me of course he was wildly different than anything people had heard of before.

The so called word of God was quoted many times by Jesus to affirm who He was. People didn't reject Him because they believed in the so called word. They rejected Him because they didn't believe in Him. They didn't believe He was the anointed one their so called word of God prophesied about. Their hearts were hard, they made an idol of their religion even if it was the word of God. When Moses climbed down the mountain the people crafted the golden calf literally to represent God and it infuriated Him. The Pharisees in essence were much worse because they crucified the Man! Jesus came and set up a new covenant. He brought teachings nobody has ever heard yes, but when has a new doctrine or teaching come to earth whereby God himself sets up a new covenant like in times past? It hasn't happened. It's not going to happen. We already know the future and that's to reign with Christ forever after all the evil has been cast into the furnace.

 

[Neogaia777]

They had some very strict rules, and great fear of God in "Changing" it/them at all though... One was put to death if they made even one single word or letter mistake or error in copying them...



That was not a corrupt priesthood at that time, and how they were about making any mistakes in even copying, let alone "changing" anything, well...?

Moses wrote the Torah, and wrote it all down, in his day and age while he was alive (They had writing then)... And the way they treated that Torah, and all books written after it (first written down during their/those times and days) was in such high regard that making even one mistake in even copying it/them, let alone changing it, was punishable by death...

So, I don't think it changed much from the originals...

Kind David had the scrolls and read them, so did Cyrus, and that was before Babylon...

God Bless!

The beginning of writing things down (The Bible) beginning with the Torah, started with Moses and the period of time when he lived, and then other books (scrolls) after that in their day and time... And they considered those writings very, very much extremely "sacred" back then...

So, "sacred" that when copying or making other copies, they would compare the copy to the originals prior to that, and if even one smallest, slightest "mistake" or error was made with even one letter, they would kill the one who copied it, and burn that scroll or book with the error, and would do it all over again (copying that book) with someone else (another copier)...

Not a lot of room for mistakes, or changing them...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The beginning of writing things down (The Bible) beginning with the Torah, started with Moses and the period of time when he lived, and then other books (scrolls) after that in their day and time... And they considered those writings very, very much extremely "sacred" back then...

So, "sacred" that when copying or making other copies, they would compare the copy to the originals prior to that, and if even one smallest, slightest "mistake" or error was made with even one letter, they would kill the one who copied it, and burn that scroll or book with the error, and would do it all over again (copying that book) with someone else (another copier)...

Not a lot of room for mistakes, or changing them...

God Bless!

The book of Genesis and the stories in Genesis could have been written down or recorded on "something" before Moses maybe as well...? That the Hebrews had before his (Moses) days, before they (The Hebrews) became slaves in Egypt as well, maybe...? Something maybe the Egyptians had in their library maybe, and was how Moses got a hold of it maybe...? I don't claim to know that much...

But, we definitely know by Moses day and time, he went to writing the Torah on scrolls and that it's "purity" was kept (after Moses) by how they were about making any copies of it/them (the scrolls) after that...

The scrolls had to be copied from time to time, cause they (the scrolls) would begin to deteriorate over time, but they considered them so very highly sacred, that...? well, like I said already; that they would compare the copy with the original before it, and if a single slightest smallest mistake was made, they would kill the copyist and burn that scroll and start all over...

God Bless!