Let's make ourselves at home: the chocolaterie

PloverWing

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The "submit" passage is not in our lectionary, but our priest chose to acknowledge it this morning anyway. The Revised Common Lectionary has been taking us through Ephesians -- today's reading was from Ephesians 5 -- but it carefully omits the "wives submit to your husbands" and "slaves obey your masters" passages. During his sermon this morning, the priest mentioned that the "wives submit" passage is one we won't be reading, nodded to it briefly in a way that suggests to me that he does not, in fact, demand submission from his wife, and then went on to the main sermon theme of living in love in a family-like community. (The sense was that there was more he could say about the household-virtues section at the end of Ephesians, but then the sermon would have been 40 minutes instead of 20.)

So, interesting. An approach kinda like the one bekkilyn was suggesting, even though the troublesome passage isn't actually in our lectionary.
 
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bekkilyn

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I'm actually considering preaching on those verses next Sunday. I used the lectionary verses from Ephesians today and last Sunday, though this Sunday I also included verse 21 about being subject to one another in Christ. Then after the first service, someone told me she had hoped I'd go on and do the rest of the chapter, so now it's actually been requested. :)
 
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Dave-W

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During his sermon this morning, the priest mentioned that the "wives submit" passage is one we won't be reading, nodded to it briefly in a way that suggests to me that he does not, in fact, demand submission from his wife,
Submission can NEVER be "demanded." That is top down, which is actually coercion.

It has to be voluntarily given from the bottom up.

Heb 13.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

ETA:

I have seen first hand TOO MANY TIMES the damage that comes from someone DEMANDING that their wife or congregant SUBMIT to them. It is so ungodly.
 
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PloverWing

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Submission can NEVER be "demanded." That is top down, which is actually coercion.

It has to be voluntarily given from the bottom up.

Yes, but... Hmm.

There's a sense in which commanding voluntary submission is even more insidious. Let me see if I can put words to it.

Ordinary obedience is an external thing: You're required to act in accordance with another person's command, but your inner self is your own; you can keep your own opinions and hopes and preferences, as long as you perform the action that is commanded.

But if I'm commanded to submit voluntarily, if I'm commanded to choose to submit, that's a requirement that I give up something in my inner self. It's no longer enough to do what the leader says; I'm now required to will what the leader wills and want what the leader wants. Being commanded to do something voluntarily -- being commanded to will something -- is an assault on a really deep part of one's self.
 
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Dave-W

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But if I'm commanded to submit voluntarily, if I'm commanded to choose to submit, that's a requirement that I give up something in my inner self. It's no longer enough to do what the leader says; I'm now required to will what the leader wills and want what the leader wants. Being commanded to do something voluntarily -- being commanded to will something -- is an assault on a really deep part of one's self.
More insidious - I completely agree.

But that is even more of a coercion than direct command. And equally sinful.
 
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Dave-W

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I will bring this:
Gourmet boxed chocolte.jpg
 
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Dave-W

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Right, well, you can definitely stay, Dave! :)
Thanks!

BTW - I know we have relatives in Ohio, but I have no idea if that Waggoner family is related to us or not.
 
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bekkilyn

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I'm actually considering preaching on those verses next Sunday. I used the lectionary verses from Ephesians today and last Sunday, though this Sunday I also included verse 21 about being subject to one another in Christ. Then after the first service, someone told me she had hoped I'd go on and do the rest of the chapter, so now it's actually been requested. :)

Just as an update, I did actually preach the sermon on these verses last week and it seemed to go well. No one has complained to me as of yet. I used an example of writing essays to describe Paul's message here, with "be subject to one another in Christ" as being like the topic sentence to the paragraphs that follow. Paul's instructions to the wife and husband are like paragraphs that support this topic sentence, and later emphasized how Christ's relationship to the church was a *sacrificial* one and not about domination or authority over.

The more I study deeper into these topics, the more I understand just how much unbiblical nonsense the current complementarian concept of male headship, outside of Greco-Roman secular social structures, really is.
 
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bekkilyn

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Thank you! Happy Labor Day to those who are in the states. :)

Ugh, that one conversation over in the married forum right now seems to exemplify everything that is wrong with gender complementarianism. I just have red flags popping up all over the place.
 
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WolfGate

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Ugh, that one conversation over in the married forum right now seems to exemplify everything that is wrong with gender complementarianism. I just have red flags popping up all over the place.

Are you talking about the one where the husband is mad because his wife and daughters went to the concert? That marriage is not complementarian, it's full patriarchy.
 
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bekkilyn

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Are you talking about the one where the husband is mad because his wife and daughters went to the concert? That marriage is not complementarian, it's full patriarchy.

Yes, that's the one. It's the sort of crazy stuff that happens as a result of gender complementarianism (which is part of patriarchy even in the "lite" versions.)
 
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Deidre32

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Ugh, that one conversation over in the married forum right now seems to exemplify everything that is wrong with gender complementarianism. I just have red flags popping up all over the place.
I have to read this one, but there are a few like that :oops:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes, but... Hmm.

There's a sense in which commanding voluntary submission is even more insidious. Let me see if I can put words to it.

Ordinary obedience is an external thing: You're required to act in accordance with another person's command, but your inner self is your own; you can keep your own opinions and hopes and preferences, as long as you perform the action that is commanded.

But if I'm commanded to submit voluntarily, if I'm commanded to choose to submit, that's a requirement that I give up something in my inner self. It's no longer enough to do what the leader says; I'm now required to will what the leader wills and want what the leader wants. Being commanded to do something voluntarily -- being commanded to will something -- is an assault on a really deep part of one's self.

...under Christ, we all at one point or another will have to bite the bullet and remind ourselves that God isn't giving us sets of "Sacred Suggestions."
 
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