Lest at ANY time they should turn (Mark 4:11-12)

[CCWoody]

We Calvinists are told that it is God's expressed wish, will, and desire that not a single member of the human race should perish. People typically use verses like 1 Timothy 1-4 to maintain that this view is Scriptural.



Well, if that is true, then why do I find these kinds of verses in my Bible?:

Mar 4:11-12 GB

(11) And he saide vnto them, To you it is giuen to knowe the mysterie of the kingdome of God: but vnto them that are without, all thinges bee done in parables,
(12) That they seeing, may see, and not discerne: and they hearing, may heare, and not vnderstand, least at any time they should turne, and their sinnes should be forgiuen them.


​

 

[johnd]

Conditions of the conversion. God will compell but not coerce. He will give us the gift of eternal life freely. But he will not grant it to one who only seeks to profit from it. Think of the sorcerer in Acts who essentially wanted to buy the gifts of the Spirit to make a name for himself.

There are certain conditions that are required, and God is quite unwilling to prove that which he requires to be accepted through faith.

 

[CCWoody]

Conditions of the conversion. God will compell but not coerce. He will give us the gift of eternal life freely. But he will not grant it to one who only seeks to profit from it. Think of the sorcerer in Acts who essentially wanted to buy the gifts of the Spirit to make a name for himself.

There are certain conditions that are required, and God is quite unwilling to prove that which he requires to be accepted through faith.

What conditions of the conversion? The Lord spoke in Parables so that they would not see and not hear "lest at ANY time they should turn and their sins be forgiven them." This is NO conversion. The Lord has specifically denied them even the opportunity to understand that they need to turn.

How is it possible that the Lord desires their salvation? That would seem to make God out to have some kind of split personality mental illness.

 

[Iollain]

I would say that God through His foreknowledge, knows the hearts of man, and knows who are His because of His foreknowledge, but since He is all fare, He could not turn even an 'evil' one away from Salvation in Yeshua?

 

[Iollain]

Would it be possible for an evil person to know/realize the Salvation in Yeshua, and follow all the commandments of a Christian life, and recieve eternal life and still have motives of evil? What would eternity be like with this kind of people?

 

[Iollain]

And then again, what would those who are Christians be like without God.......as 'evil' as the unsaved? That is mind boggling, i dunno.

 

[Egghead]

We Calvinists are told that it is God's expressed wish, will, and desire that not a single member of the human race should perish. People typically use verses like 1 Timothy 1-4 to maintain that this view is Scriptural.



Well, if that is true, then why do I find these kinds of verses in my Bible?:

Mar 4:11-12 GB

(11) And he saide vnto them, To you it is giuen to knowe the mysterie of the kingdome of God: but vnto them that are without, all thinges bee done in parables,
(12) That they seeing, may see, and not discerne: and they hearing, may heare, and not vnderstand, least at any time they should turne, and their sinnes should be forgiuen them.


​

WHO is it talking about?
WHO was Jesus speaking the parables to?

The JEWS....who have been partially blinded for a time until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

it was all planned out, wasnt it?

And He said, Go and say to this people, Hearing you hear, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make his ears heavy, and shut his eyes, that he not see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and understand with his heart, and turn back, and one heals him.
(Isa 6:9-10 LITV)

Isa 6:9-13 -
God sends Isaiah to foretell the ruin of his people. Many hear the sound of God's word, but do not feel the power of it. God sometimes, in righteous judgment, gives men up to blindness of mind, because they will not receive the truth in the love of it. But no humble inquirer after Christ, need to fear this awful doom, which is a spiritual judgment on those who will still hold fast their sins. Let every one pray for the enlightening of the Holy Spirit, that he may perceive how precious are the Divine mercies, by which alone we are secured against this dreadful danger. Yet the Lord would preserve a remnant, like the tenth, holy to him. And blessed be God, he still preserves his church; however professors or visible churches may be lopped off as unfruitful, the holy seed will shoot forth, from whom all the numerous branches of righteousness shall arise.
-Henry

It is NOT something you can apply at random, and to the whole of humanity !!!

 

[Egghead]

We Calvinists are told that it is God's expressed wish, will, and desire that not a single member of the human race should perish. People typically use verses like 1 Timothy 1-4 to maintain that this view is Scriptural.



Well, if that is true, then why do I find these kinds of verses in my Bible?:

Mar 4:11-12 GB

(11) And he saide vnto them, To you it is giuen to knowe the mysterie of the kingdome of God: but vnto them that are without, all thinges bee done in parables,
(12) That they seeing, may see, and not discerne: and they hearing, may heare, and not vnderstand, least at any time they should turne, and their sinnes should be forgiuen them.


​

WHO is it talking about?
WHO was Jesus speaking the parables to?

The JEWS....who have been partially blinded for a time until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

it was all planned out, wasnt it?

And He said, Go and say to this people, Hearing you hear, but do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know.

Make the heart of this people fat, and make his ears heavy, and shut his eyes, that he not see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and understand with his heart, and turn back, and one heals him.
(Isa 6:9-10 LITV)

Isa 6:9-13 -
God sends Isaiah to foretell the ruin of his people. Many hear the sound of God's word, but do not feel the power of it. God sometimes, in righteous judgment, gives men up to blindness of mind, because they will not receive the truth in the love of it. But no humble inquirer after Christ, need to fear this awful doom, which is a spiritual judgment on those who will still hold fast their sins. Let every one pray for the enlightening of the Holy Spirit, that he may perceive how precious are the Divine mercies, by which alone we are secured against this dreadful danger. Yet the Lord would preserve a remnant, like the tenth, holy to him. And blessed be God, he still preserves his church; however professors or visible churches may be lopped off as unfruitful, the holy seed will shoot forth, from whom all the numerous branches of righteousness shall arise.
-Henry

It is NOT something you can apply at random, and to the whole of humanity !!!

 

[CCWoody]

WHO is it talking about?

The JEWS whom have been partially blinded for a time until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

It is NOT something you can apply at random, and to the whole of humanity !!!

Arminian thesis: God is unwilling for any to perish.

Scripture antithesis: To you it is giuen to knowe the mysterie of the kingdome of God: but vnto them that are without, all thinges bee done in parables, that they seeing, may see, and not discerne: and they hearing, may heare, and not vnderstand, least at any time they should turne, and their sinnes should be forgiuen them.

Synthesis: ?????

How can it in any way be said that the Lord desires the salvation of people when he speaks in parables specifically for the purpose of denying them even the eyes or ears to see that they should turn and have their sins be forgiven? You have stated that the "Jews have been partially blinded for a time." And, while this is true for the nation of Israel, though not for individual Jews within that nation, it cannot be said that this verse is speaking in THAT sense. It is clear that the Lord is speaking about individuals being denied even the ability to understand least at ANY TIME they should turn and have their sins forgiven. You cannot read "for a time" when the verse is exact and precise: "ANY TIME."

Is Jesus' will contrary to the Father's? Does God have a mental defect?

Why, exactly, did the Lord refuse these people even the opportunity for salvation? What is the Arminian (i.e. non-Calvinist) synthesis?

 

[Egghead]

All I see is that you are going to reject what is presented by anyone, no matter how clear it is, to defend calvinism.

I gave you the rest of the picture on that passage.
Jesus was talking TO the Jews.....THAT is who that applies to in that passage.

You dont get to change the intended target with your ''any time'' arguement''

Arminian thesis: God is unwilling for any to perish.

Scripture antithesis: To you it is giuen to knowe the mysterie of the kingdome of God: but vnto them that are without, all thinges bee done in parables, that they seeing, may see, and not discerne: and they hearing, may heare, and not vnderstand, least at any time they should turne, and their sinnes should be forgiuen them.

Synthesis: ?????

How can it in any way be said that the Lord desires the salvation of people when he speaks in parables specifically for the purpose of denying them even the eyes or ears to see that they should turn and have their sins be forgiven? You have stated that the "Jews have been partially blinded for a time." And, while this is true for the nation of Israel, though not for individual Jews within that nation, it cannot be said that this verse is speaking in THAT sense. It is clear that the Lord is speaking about individuals being denied even the ability to understand least at ANY TIME they should turn and have their sins forgiven. You cannot read "for a time" when the verse is exact and precise: "ANY TIME."

Is Jesus' will contrary to the Father's? Does God have a mental defect?

Why, exactly, did the Lord refuse these people even the opportunity for salvation? What is the Arminian (i.e. non-Calvinist) synthesis?

Semantics...

and AGAIN.......God CAN control the situation WHEN HE DEEMS FIT.
That doesnt NOT state that He does so in ALL cases for ALL men.

"any time'' means nothing without understanding WHO Jesus is talking TO and about.

Here......see this?

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks;
but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."
(Rom 11:7-8 EMTV)

For I do not desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
(Rom 11:25 EMTV)

ISRAEL has been blinded for a time.......that does NOT apply to all men !!!

 

[Egghead]

Why, exactly, did the Lord refuse these people even the opportunity for salvation? What is the Arminian (i.e. non-Calvinist) synthesis?

Upon reading your post again, I have to ask .....are you kidding?

"WHY" is Jesus refusing the Hebrews salvation?

I really dont know if going into the whole thing is worth it.

Heres a little hint tho...

They have moved Me to jealousy with a no-god. They have provoked Me to anger with their vanities. And I will move them to jealousy with a no-people. I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
(Deu 32:21 MKJV)

 

[Iollain]

That actually makes sense Egghead because if it wasn't for the Jews being blinded there would be no salvation for the Gentiles.

 

[CCWoody]

Upon reading your post again, I have to ask .....are you kidding?

"WHY" is Jesus refusing the Hebrews salvation?

I really dont know if going into the whole thing is worth it.

Heres a little hint tho...

Actually, Egghead, exactly why the Lord "refused... salvation" to a group of people is entirely immaterial to my question. It is the very fact that the Lord did as you say refused salvation to a group of people that proves my argument and renders the Arminian contentions that:

1. God loves everyone redemptively (he sure didn't love those to whom he spoke in parables and prevented from even the means to turn and have their sins forgiven)
2. God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish (he sure seems willing enough for certain people to perish seeing he denies them even the means to turn)
3. God offers salvation to everyone (the Lord seemed pretty uninterested in offering salvation to certain people given that he spoke in such a way that they would NEVER turn and have their sins forgiven)

So, really, Egghead, while it is interesting as to why the Lord "refused salvation" the the Hebrews, and I really have no problem with the idea of the nation of Israel, though not every single Jew without exception, being broken off of the true vine until the time of the gentiles is over (what can I say but I'm Partial Preterist Amillenntial and this IS my Eschatology), it really has nothing to do with my point in this verse.

So, with all of that said, have you figured out that you just basically handed my point to me on a silver platter?

 

[Egghead]

conclude whatever you will, friend, as long as you dont try to make the claim that your passage applies to all men now.

Actually, Egghead, exactly why the Lord "refused... salvation" to a group of people is entirely immaterial to my question. It is the very fact that the Lord did as you say refused salvation to a group of people that proves my argument and renders the Arminian contentions that:

1. God loves everyone redemptively (he sure didn't love those to whom he spoke in parables and prevented from even the means to turn and have their sins forgiven)
2. God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish (he sure seems willing enough for certain people to perish seeing he denies them even the means to turn)
3. God offers salvation to everyone (the Lord seemed pretty uninterested in offering salvation to certain people given that he spoke in such a way that they would NEVER turn and have their sins forgiven)

So, really, Egghead, while it is interesting as to why the Lord "refused salvation" the the Hebrews, and I really have no problem with the idea of the nation of Israel, though not every single Jew without exception, being broken off of the true vine until the time of the gentiles is over (what can I say but I'm Partial Preterist Amillenntial and this IS my Eschatology), it really has nothing to do with my point in this verse.

So, with all of that said, have you figured out that you just basically handed my point to me on a silver platter?

Hardly.
Nice try tho at damage control.

You wanted it to apply to all men, that much was apparent.
It doesnt.


All that happened to the Jews, there being blinded to the truth, was foretold.



If anything this all proves that OUR behavior CAN cause us to fall away from God......just as happened to the nation of Israel.

 

[Egghead]

So, with all of that said, have you figured out that you just basically handed my point to me on a silver platter?

Hardly.
Nice try tho at damage control.

You wanted it to apply to all men, that much was apparent.
It doesnt.


All that happened to the Jews, their being blinded to the truth, was foretold.



If anything this all proves that OUR behavior CAN cause us to fall away from God......just as happened to the nation of Israel.

 

[Egghead]

Because of a couple posters jumping in here and there, obviously either not reading all my posts, or just ignoring what was stated, I wanted to clarify that Im not going to keep repeating myself over and over in these threads.
What I will do is go back thru the threads and repost the relevant ones.

Its far too much work.....to much time.....to keep repeating myself.

Please, either read ALL my posts or dont respond to me.....and please dont give me the SAME response that has already been given partaining to a particular passage that Ive already answered.


I love these discussions, but the repetition is getting a bit old.

 

[cygnusx1]

Actually, Egghead, exactly why the Lord "refused... salvation" to a group of people is entirely immaterial to my question. It is the very fact that the Lord did as you say refused salvation to a group of people that proves my argument and renders the Arminian contentions that:

1. God loves everyone redemptively (he sure didn't love those to whom he spoke in parables and prevented from even the means to turn and have their sins forgiven)
2. God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish (he sure seems willing enough for certain people to perish seeing he denies them even the means to turn)
3. God offers salvation to everyone (the Lord seemed pretty uninterested in offering salvation to certain people given that he spoke in such a way that they would NEVER turn and have their sins forgiven)

Hi CCWoody
the 3 points you make are valid , yet they only tell one side of the story .

while it is true that God does not love everyone enough to grant them salvation through Divine intervention , through regeneration , the gift of faith and the gift of repentance etc , yet ........ consider the Lord's character , Loving , kind , patient , slow to anger , quick to forgive , and truly delighting in the life of the repentant sinner , not throwing a party at the opportunity to damn him........

God's love for the world is evidenced by the rain and sun being given to both the righteous and the wicked ....... and all acts of common grace (common to elect and reprobates) are said to lead them to repentance ( being lead doesn't mean a person always arrives at the said destination )..... yet God has chosen not to intervene and rescue any from storing up their deserved wrath save the Elect!

Now , true , while God doesn't intervene to the depth and degree He does for the Elect , yet , God has given the reprobate so many opportunities , take the Jews , blessed beyond all others , and only a remnant saved , the rest are hardened as it was predicted , surely where more blessings have been given and abused , there will be greater judgment ........ hence blinding , hardening and rejection.

Yet the Lord's arms are still outstretched and the opportunity for the nation of the Jews to return has always been open , IF they do not persist in unbelief.

When it is said God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish ........ that is false if the meaning is God's decretive will .... yet if it means God's complacent will : His will of approval , His will of delight , and His will of approbation , then yes , God doesn't will any to perish....... and that is why we can preach that the Good News is Good News to everyone ........ it can only ever be Good News , what makes the news bad/smell , isn't the News , but the rejection of it!

Your last point is absolutely true , as far as I know , there is just no way of getting around the fact that all men have not heard the Gospel ...... but those that have are judged more harshly for rejecting the Gospel and God's Son ........ and as Jesus was rejected upon many occasions , it seems perfectly just that God would visit this generation with blindness.

 

[Egghead]

1. God loves everyone redemptively (he sure didn't love those to whom he spoke in parables and prevented from even the means to turn and have their sins forgiven)

1. He was speaking to the Jews whom it was FORETOLD that He would come to, that they would not recieve Him, and that He would be rejected by them. It was foretold that these Jews would be blinded. simple as that.

   [*]God is unwilling for anyone in the human race to perish (he sure seems willing enough for certain people to perish seeing he denies them even the means to turn)

   That ''certain people'' has CLEARLY been shown to be the Jews. All the more proof that continual disobedience can cause one to be rejected by Him.....OUR actions DO make a difference !
   
   
   
   

   [*]God offers salvation to everyone (the Lord seemed pretty uninterested in offering salvation to certain people given that he spoke in such a way that they would NEVER turn and have their sins forgiven)

   These ''certain people'' AGAIN.....were the Jews in your passage. Again, all this was foretold and it was all becuase the Jews were continually disobedient.

I cannot believe that anyone versed in the Old Testament could unwittingly use the passage you presented in the OP to try to show what you are.

I keep seeing arguements about ''context'' yet some that are telling US to mind it are ignoring it themselves when it seems fit.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

WHO is it talking about?
WHO was Jesus speaking the parables to?

The JEWS....who have been partially blinded for a time until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.
it was all planned out, wasnt it?






It is NOT something you can apply at random, and to the whole of humanity !!!

You actually make the point that God purposely blinded the Jews, preventing them from grasping the Gospel, which mitigates against the insistence of Arminians that God desires every single person to be saved,

 

[Iollain]

Aye, but He did that for a reason?