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Featured Lesbian bishop installs Muslim prayer space

Discussion in 'Current News & Events' started by Original Happy Camper, Nov 30, 2017.

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  1. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I am of course a Christian of the Church of the Augsburg Confession, and I believe Jesus is the long expected Jewish Messiah, and the Son of God, but I am against needless, intentional disrespect of others beliefs. My Lutheran faith does not require crosses in places of Christian worship, even if I desire it and it is a pious tradition, it is not required or essential to our faith.

    A concession to Muslims is just that, an act of kindness, it is not assent to the tenets of the Islamic faith. It means that I honor them in their human needs, including their religious needs to worship God. It does not mean I, myself, believe in Islam.

    There is a basic Law-Gospel distinction that other Christians do not usually understand and I believe it is clouding your sense of ethics. I am not required to try to make people Christians or to believe in Jesus, or to force my religion on anyone. Only God the Holy Spirit makes Christians. As much as possible, I am commanded by God to live in peace with all people. If having a nonsectarian chapel in a port city facilitates that, I don't see the problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    There are Muslims, BTW, that do believe that Christians are submitting to Allah, in a limited way perhaps, but it is sufficient. Not all Muslims are Salafist fanatics. Some Muslims just want a world where there is just rule of law, much as we do. There is always room for dialogue, and I do not see how it hurts my faith at all to see ways we can live in peace with our neighbor through better understanding of one another.
     
  3. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    Those icons of Christ are also disrespectful to Islam (so they must be torn down and burned as is Islamic tradition) as is a woman in a position of religious authority (or even secular authority for that matter). I hope she's not around when the Muslims are there and that there are no non Muslims there so as to not pollute the worship of the worship of Allah. Also in order to accomadate Muslims even furhter the whole foundations of the building should be risen so that the building might face Mecca. It's only tolerant, it's the only acceptable solution to this. It's not like Muslims can their own building to worship in and Christians their own. It's not like churches were dedicated to the worship of the one true God, no they were built for Allah, certainty not the Holy Trinity.

    My Sarcasm has officially run out so i'll make my point clearly. What is a Church? A Church is a symbol of the faithful who attend it and to that end those who attend and worship it make up the very character of the building which is reflected in it's design. If you give a place to Muslims in the Church why not to Hindus? Why not to Jehovah's witnesses? Why not to other denominations of Christianity? If the building is not dedicated to the creed of the community using it, there is seemingly no limit on what might enter into it. Your pretensions at love ring hollow because in inviting Muslims to worship there, not correcting them, not showing them how they are wrong to deny Christ as God incarnate, you are saying that all forms of religious expression are welcome here. At what point to cease to become a Church and merely a lesser form of Unitarian Universalism? At least they admit they believe in nothing.
     
  4. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    Name one credible Islamic theologian who would defend Christians as submitting to Allah despite their worship of Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
     
  5. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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    America has the distinction of having the first Gay Bishop....
    Gay bishops - Wikipedia
    It is in contemporary Anglicanism that the issue of homosexuality and its relationship to people in the episcopate has been confronted openly. Indeed, the first large mainstream church to ever consecrate an openly gay bishop who was not celibate has been the Episcopal Church in the United States ofAmerica, a member of ...

    So Sweden only had the firs Lesbian.......
     
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    The church is a people, not a building. You guys may have dusty icons in your temples. My church is made of living icons, some are on earth here with me, others are in heaven with God. Let's not engage in litholatry. The thing that makes a place holy is its use by people.

    I find the insinuation that I am advocating Unitarian Universalism sub-christian, and that I believe in nothing, deplorable. You take a simple act of kindness and try to spin it into some elaborate anti-Christian conspiracy. Sometimes kindness is just kindness.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  7. TerryWoodenpic

    TerryWoodenpic Member

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  8. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    To quote my own words: "A Church is a symbol of the faithful who attend..." It's visible elements represent the faith held internally within the hearts of the believers who attend it. What does it say to the world to see a Bishop invite Muslims to pray in their Church. It says two things, it says this is a Church which values multiplicity of views and ideas rather than it's own theology. I think you are quite right this is a very tolerant Church to tolerate a people whose holy book says that Christians are the worst of all peoples, whose tradition tells us Jesus will return and break the crosses and lead a glorious jihad against those who called him God. When the Satanists run out of room perhaps this Bishop should invite them to worship at the Church, since that would be tolerant and open.

    You see I was under the impression that a Church was a building set aside for the gathering of the people to celebrate the Eucharist. As a Lutheran you should appreciate that. It's primary purpose is not hear a sermon, not to be a moral guidepost, not to be centre of tolerance and respect to all faiths but to provide spiritual nourishment for God's people. In that vain it as a building is dedicated to the liturgy, to serving God for who he is and how he approaches his people.

    It would be one thing to offer beds to Muslims in the Church, it would one thing to feed them there, that would be a perfectly Christian thing to offer anyone but to offer a worship place, that is just wrong. Muslims deny who God is, why should they be invited to pray prayers to a false corruption of the true God? Does that help them? Does being reinforced that their status as Muslim is so important that they are allowed to take over a part of a Church help them understand that Muhammad was false?
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    What you said might be valid if not for the fact the Seaman's Chapel in Stockholm is not an ordinary church. Bishop Brunne never suggested tearing down every cross in Sweden in the name of not offending Muslims.

    A bishop inviting a Muslim to pray in a church... what does that say? I think it says to the world that Christians are kind to Muslims. How is that a bad thing? Only in the most polemical of worldviews would it suggest that Christians are agreeing with Muslims. Frankly, this sort of mentality is not really Christian. It has the externals, the icons the incense and the prayers, but it is far from the heart of Jesus.
     
  10. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I think as a matter of policy it should be bad to encourage prayer to a false God. Christians can and have been incredibly kind to Christians but the boundaries of liturgical life should be respected and distinct from other elements which critique that expression.
     
  11. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Lutherans do not put liturgy on a pedestal the way Orthodox do. We are free to adapt the liturgy to local needs.
     
  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Cute.

    If Christians in a country desire to welcome Muslim strangers, then I don't see the problem with removing a cross from a chapel, if the chapel desires it. We are ultimately talking about a piece of wood. The true Cross that saves us dwells in our hearts, just as in the Luther Rose.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
     
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  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    The blessed apostle John spoke alot about love too, and how we will know who is of the Vine and who is not, by our love.

    I am not at all intimidated by the insinuations that somehow our faith is illegitimate. It may be hard for you to understand why we do what we do, but you are always welcome to attend our catechism.
     
  15. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    Love rejoices in the truth. This is the truth here

    2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
     
  16. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    I am not at all intimidated by your insinuation. Again, you are always welcome to attend our catechism and learn why we believe and confess as we do. The ELCA welcomes everyone.

    We too hold the apostle John in high esteem. I believe he would not have much good to say about a Christian that attacks another out of willfull ignorance.
     
  17. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Not allowing false religions in a place of Christian worship now constitutes attacking them? Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee bit of a stretch.
     
  18. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    When I first started exploring the subject, i tried to look for some clear differentiation between body and soul and mind and spirit.
    These are in the end very ephemeral subjects, and two people using the exact same words are often meaning the very same thing.
    For example, are there other spiritual entities than God?
    Virgin Mary, Satan, maybe?
    And if someone is described as having Satan as their father, does that in effect mean that they worship Satan as their God?
    Does Satan exist only figuratively? And if that is the case, could the same be said about God?
    Bottom line in this discussion is that Muslims themselves do not recognize Christians as worshipping Allah, because we are deemed to be polytheists. They tend not to try to suck up as much as this kind of bishop does.
     
  19. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Evangelical Catholic Supporter

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    Nope. Improve your reading comprehension. I was responding to the insinuation that we don't keep the faith, and therefore we should be dismissed.

    The Church of Sweden does not need your approval, as a non-Lutheran. Bishop Brunne is duely called and ordained by her church into the succession of the apostles. She is entitled to her opinion as fitting that office, and as a desire, it is not anti-Christian in itself to want to find creative ways to welcome strangers. Perhaps it is not wise, but it is hardly a sign of our faith being false.
     
  20. Wholesome Thomas

    Wholesome Thomas mostly okay

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    I don't know why she thought this would be a good idea. Certainly I wouldn't be interested in using a Christian Prayer space set up in a Mosque, and I can't imagine it being different for muslims.

    I hate to say it but this just smacks of political posturing rather than an earnest-but-misguided attempt to help people.
     
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