Legalism or Sunday keeping - what is the mark?

[Isaiah60]

The problem with the relaxed position is that Ellen G. White did teach the mark of the beast doctrine. I just never could remain loyal to any church that taught things that had no basis in Scripture. I got to the point where I was seeking to become a Roman Catholic but did find unorthodox views they hold and those views I didn't want to commit myself to. Fortunately the Anglican Church has no pet-doctrines and its doctrines are ancient and hold firm to Scripture. But there are many different Anglican divisions and not all of them follow Scripture. So my life finding the right denomination was a life long journey and I spent many years reading Scripture and the early church fathers of the first 4-centuries in order to sift out the denominations I didn't care for. When all is said and done I abandoned all home grown American churches as they all took Protestantism to an extreme much to radical for me.

 

[sparow]

The mark of the beast goes in the hand and forehead and this was mentioned several times in the OT

And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: Ex. 13:9

The mark of the beast is law keeping or legalism. Legalism is the sin that led to the crucifixion of Christ so this shouldn't be a surprise.

It was illegalism that crucified Christ; the teachings of men instead of the teachings of God. The mark of the beast should be history, although maybe not. Saturday is a mark of God and this has been used to identify people during the Inquisitions; but I cannot imagine Sunday being placed on the back of anyone's hand. If the mark is around to day we would need only to see who is buying and selling.

 

[BobRyan]

Many Sabbath/law proponents are very vocal in their belief that Sunday keeping is the mark of the beast.

While most mainline Christians who have no set teaching on this see legalism or a fall from grace as the worst sin a Christian can commit.

So please vote and share your thoughts.

1. According to Rev 13 the mark of the beast is in the form of worship to some false god / image etc which probably relies on a lot of symbolism in the text.

It is a sin according to the Word of God.

2. I don't think legalism is usually depicted in the Bible as worship before a false god or image... correct me if you have a text to the contrary. Not saying legalism is a good thing in the Bible - just that I don't think that is how it is depicted.

3. It looks like the posts on this thread do not address Rev 13 - rather they look at whether it is even ok to observe the Bible Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem with the relaxed position is that Ellen G. White did teach the mark of the beast doctrine.

A lot of Christian churches have access to Rev 13 and read that same "mark of the beast" text and have an opinion on it.

The fact that Ellen White also had access to that text and had an interpretation is not very controversial.

 

[BobRyan]

the Anglican Church has no pet-doctrines and its doctrines are ancient and hold firm to Scripture. .

so say we all -- very few people come to CF claiming "my denomination has doctrines that do not hold firm to scripture"

 

[sparow]

1. According to Rev 13 the mark of the beast is in the form of worship to some false god / image etc which probably relies on a lot of symbolism in the text.

It is a sin according to the Word of God.

2. I don't think legalism is usually depicted in the Bible as worship before a false god or image... correct me if you have a text to the contrary. Not saying legalism is a good thing in the Bible - just that I don't think that is how it is depicted.

3. It looks like the posts on this thread do not address Rev 13 - rather they look at whether it is even ok to observe the Bible Sabbath.

The vote or survey should have had a third option: NONE OF THE ABOVE.

I do not think the mark of the beast is a physical mark at least not exclusively. The mark of the beast is the anti-thesis of the seal of God is in the mind; the Law of God written in the mind. What is written on the mind of those seven heads is blasphemy; but is it the word, "blasphemy" plastered on their foreheads or does blasphemy describe what is written on their mind in leu of God's Law?

I often have difficulties with scripture, I don't trust the translators; it is not that they are necessarily dishonest but have preconceived ideas. I am amused by what is made of the number 666, and I have heard some beauties; my GUESS is the sum of the beast is the same as the sum of man(kind) around 8,000,000,000 and 666 is 6 repeated 3 times for emphasis; 6 representing evil or blasphemy.

 

[BobRyan]

Many Sabbath/law proponents are very vocal in their belief that Sunday keeping is the mark of the beast.

While most mainline Christians who have no set teaching on this see legalism or a fall from grace as the worst sin a Christian can commit.

So please vote and share your thoughts.

1. According to Rev 13 the mark of the beast is in the form of worship to some false god / image etc which probably relies on a lot of symbolism in the text.

It is a sin according to the Word of God.

2. I don't think legalism is usually depicted in the Bible as worship before a false god or image... correct me if you have a text to the contrary. Not saying legalism is a good thing in the Bible - just that I don't think that is how it is depicted.

3. It looks like the posts on this thread do not address Rev 13 - rather they look at whether it is even ok to observe the Bible Sabbath.

The vote or survey should have had a third option: NONE OF THE ABOVE.

ok... but I did not create the vote or thread.

I do not think the mark of the beast is a physical mark at least not exclusively. The mark of the beast is the anti-thesis of the seal of God is in the mind; the Law of God written in the mind. What is written on the mind of those seven heads is blasphemy; but is it the word, "blasphemy" plastered on their foreheads or does blasphemy describe what is written on their mind in leu of God's Law?

Good question - but I would also "add" that the person checking you out at the grocery store is not going to read your mind before selling you the groceries. They will want some form of physical document or tag or clearance on your credit card or ...

I often have difficulties with scripture, I don't trust the translators; it is not that they are necessarily dishonest but have preconceived ideas. I am amused by what is made of the number 666, and I have heard some beauties; my GUESS is the sum of the beast is the same as the sum of man(kind) around 8,000,000,000 and 666 is 6 repeated 3 times for emphasis; 6 representing evil or blasphemy.

well certainly it is some sort of "bad thing" and it helps people know in some way what they are supposed to be avoiding if they understand what it means. The text already says "blasphemy" outright without 666 so no need to decode 666 to figure out that the text is warning about blasphemy.

 

[Junia]

No, because I do not eat pork. So I would not know if it sends you to hell or not.

Nobody knows who is in hell l or not because hell l has no exits!

 

[Junia]

Legalism is trusting in the law so it most often refers to the good things one is doing not the negative.

Legalism is trusting in works for salvation. I don't know what the mark of the beast will be but we are saved by grace only

I suspect the mark will be a physical mark in the forehead or hand but until it arrives we don't know...we do know that those who refuse the mark are martyred and I don't see anyone martyred for not worshipping in a Sunday

I believe the mark won't arrive until the antitrust and one world government makes an appearance. So we won't know yet

 

[sparow]

Legalism is trusting in works for salvation. I don't know what the mark of the beast will be but we are saved by grace only

I suspect the mark will be a physical mark in the forehead or hand but until it arrives we don't know...we do know that those who refuse the mark are martyred and I don't see anyone martyred for not worshipping in a Sunday

I believe the mark won't arrive until the antitrust and one world government makes an appearance. So we won't know yet

The Pharisees were legalist; while I am aware of the definition of legalism; legalism is often used as a slur against them who keep the commandments of God. The mark of the beast is some thing that identifies the beast, in the same way the seal of God identifies God.

These people are often called legalists and I do not always agree with them; I think they are right concerning the mark of the beast:

The Mark of the Beast Is HERE

 

[Junia]

The Pharisees were legalist; while I am aware of the definition of legalism; legalism is often used as a slur against them who keep the commandments of God. The mark of the beast is some thing that identifies the beast, in the same way the seal of God identifies God.

These people are often called legalists and I do not always agree with them; I think they are right concerning the mark of the beast:

The Mark of the Beast Is HERE

so what do you do then if you.are not yet a mature believer and need fellowship with those who can disciple you but all the churches near you worship in sundays? I don't have the option of starting a church as am disabled , chronically unwell and live in a tiny apartment?

I am going to perish because I am part of a church that worships on sunday?

In spite of the fact that my church is seeing healings, conversions, people.set free from addictions etc??? and is spreading the gospel.round the world???

All that good fruit is counterfeit??

if ?God sends someone like me and those in my church to hel l because we meet in the wrong day well I guess Christian God isn't for me.

 

[Junia]

We are told to keep the Sabbath and it is a commandment but how can it be a salvation deal breaker??? If God can accept people from parts of the world where they never heard about Jesus and He is !merciful and loving how can He condemn those of us who have no option but to worship in Sunday??

 

[sparow]

so what do you do then if you.are not yet a mature believer and need fellowship with those who can disciple you but all the churches near you worship in sundays? I don't have the option of starting a church as am disabled , chronically unwell and live in a tiny apartment?

I am going to perish because I am part of a church that worships on sunday?

In spite of the fact that my church is seeing healings, conversions, people.set free from addictions etc??? and is spreading the gospel.round the world???

All that good fruit is counterfeit??

if ?God sends someone like me and those in my church to hel l because we meet in the wrong day well I guess Christian God isn't for me.

You are putting me in a spot, but I'll do my best. I'll present a best case scenario and a worst case scenario. Suppose you went to a perfect church; the Bishop would be in charge of the administration of the house and the safe keeper of doctrine; if false doctrine crept in it would be on his neck. What the Bishop and his priests would not be is a MEDIATOR between you and God; that is Jesus' job, so what is required is a personal relation ship with Jesus, without which nothing else works. A good way to do that is to read the four Gospels and Revelation a number of times, four times would be good, then read the universal epistles (the epistles excluding Paul). You need a good foundation before you start listening to other people.


The worst case is where the Bishop will presume to be a mediator between you and God, as the Pope and his priests presumes to be mediator between man and God.. This is par with putting Paul as mediator in place of the Pope, in place of Jesus as is often the case.

Searching around the old testament you will find the Sabbath is many things, one thing keeping the Sabbath is, is a sign that you have every thing in place, and are indeed in covenant with Christ. Now you are ready to start shopping around for a suitable church.

A good church membership is ideal but not essential; for mental health reasons it is better to have friends than not.

The Law may not be changed; the credibility of scripture depends on no change; the only one who presumes to change the Law is the Beast of Daniel and Revelation; when you read in a epistle that the Law is changed you should assume that the writer does not know what he saying, that the writer is the Beast or someone has edited the epistle.

Church of England

Celtic Sabbath-Keepers







.

 

[sparow]

We are told to keep the Sabbath and it is a commandment but how can it be a salvation deal breaker??? If God can accept people from parts of the world where they never heard about Jesus and He is !merciful and loving how can He condemn those of us who have no option but to worship in Sunday??

There is a narrow path to find; one is only required to keep the Law in as far as one has knowledge and conviction of the Law; Jesus is also the Daily Sacrifice which is for sins committed in ignorance.

Being righteous is supposed to be pleasant and a light load, free of the burden of sin. Jesus came to save not condemn.

 

[Junia]

You are putting me in a spot, but I'll do my best. I'll present a best case scenario and a worst case scenario. Suppose you went to a perfect church; the Bishop would be in charge of the administration of the house and the safe keeper of doctrine; if false doctrine crept in it would be on his neck. What the Bishop and his priests would not be is a MEDIATOR between you and God; that is Jesus' job, so what is required is a personal relation ship with Jesus, without which nothing else works. A good way to do that is to read the four Gospels and Revelation a number of times, four times would be good, then read the universal epistles (the epistles excluding Paul). You need a good foundation before you start listening to other people.


The worst case is where the Bishop will presume to be a mediator between you and God, as the Pope and his priests presumes to be mediator between man and God.. This is par with putting Paul as mediator in place of the Pope, in place of Jesus as is often the case.

Searching around the old testament you will find the Sabbath is many things, one thing keeping the Sabbath is, is a sign that you have every thing in place, and are indeed in covenant with Christ. Now you are ready to start shopping around for a suitable church.

A good church membership is ideal but not essential; for mental health reasons it is better to have friends than not.

The Law may not be changed; the credibility of scripture depends on no change; the only one who presumes to change the Law is the Beast of Daniel and Revelation; when you read in a epistle that the Law is changed you should assume that the writer does not know what he saying, that the writer is the Beast or someone has edited the epistle.

Church of England

Celtic Sabbath-Keepers







.

Thank you this is all very interesting

I was speaking to a Hebrew Roots friend about this and she said it is ok to just use Saturday as a chill out day of rest and relaxation and Sunday to do church and worship. So I guess am ok by having both my church and also keeping a Sabbath as well. The traditional Biblical Sabbath was a day of rest and relaxation, of being with family and chikling and not working....it was not used as a day of worshipping in synagogue or temple. Modern day Judaism combines Shabbat with rest and worship but in biblical times it was considered ok to just rest from working on that day.

 

[Junia]

You are putting me in a spot, but I'll do my best. I'll present a best case scenario and a worst case scenario. Suppose you went to a perfect church; the Bishop would be in charge of the administration of the house and the safe keeper of doctrine; if false doctrine crept in it would be on his neck. What the Bishop and his priests would not be is a MEDIATOR between you and God; that is Jesus' job, so what is required is a personal relation ship with Jesus, without which nothing else works. A good way to do that is to read the four Gospels and Revelation a number of times, four times would be good, then read the universal epistles (the epistles excluding Paul). You need a good foundation before you start listening to other people.


The worst case is where the Bishop will presume to be a mediator between you and God, as the Pope and his priests presumes to be mediator between man and God.. This is par with putting Paul as mediator in place of the Pope, in place of Jesus as is often the case.

Searching around the old testament you will find the Sabbath is many things, one thing keeping the Sabbath is, is a sign that you have every thing in place, and are indeed in covenant with Christ. Now you are ready to start shopping around for a suitable church.

A good church membership is ideal but not essential; for mental health reasons it is better to have friends than not.

The Law may not be changed; the credibility of scripture depends on no change; the only one who presumes to change the Law is the Beast of Daniel and Revelation; when you read in a epistle that the Law is changed you should assume that the writer does not know what he saying, that the writer is the Beast or someone has edited the epistle.

Church of England

Celtic Sabbath-Keepers







.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. For our rest and wellbeing. Like most of the laws, they are for our benefit. I don't see keeping the law as something required to get into heaven but of something God gave to us because He loves us and wants our health and wellbeing. So I like don't eat in Saturday for benefit of my body and mind and from love for Jesus. Born again believers obey the commandments not out of fear of hell but because they honour Jesus and know His ways are perfect


I don't even think of hell except as a place where non believers go and how important it is to share the Gospel with them so they like us will never perish

 

[Junia]

You are putting me in a spot, but I'll do my best. I'll present a best case scenario and a worst case scenario. Suppose you went to a perfect church; the Bishop would be in charge of the administration of the house and the safe keeper of doctrine; if false doctrine crept in it would be on his neck. What the Bishop and his priests would not be is a MEDIATOR between you and God; that is Jesus' job, so what is required is a personal relation ship with Jesus, without which nothing else works. A good way to do that is to read the four Gospels and Revelation a number of times, four times would be good, then read the universal epistles (the epistles excluding Paul). You need a good foundation before you start listening to other people.


The worst case is where the Bishop will presume to be a mediator between you and God, as the Pope and his priests presumes to be mediator between man and God.. This is par with putting Paul as mediator in place of the Pope, in place of Jesus as is often the case.

Searching around the old testament you will find the Sabbath is many things, one thing keeping the Sabbath is, is a sign that you have every thing in place, and are indeed in covenant with Christ. Now you are ready to start shopping around for a suitable church.

A good church membership is ideal but not essential; for mental health reasons it is better to have friends than not.

The Law may not be changed; the credibility of scripture depends on no change; the only one who presumes to change the Law is the Beast of Daniel and Revelation; when you read in a epistle that the Law is changed you should assume that the writer does not know what he saying, that the writer is the Beast or someone has edited the epistle.

Church of England

Celtic Sabbath-Keepers







.

I

Hadn't known that about the Celts keeping Sabbath but very fascinating.

 

[sparow]

Thank you this is all very interesting

I was speaking to a Hebrew Roots friend about this and she said it is ok to just use Saturday as a chill out day of rest and relaxation and Sunday to do church and worship. So I guess am ok by having both my church and also keeping a Sabbath as well. The traditional Biblical Sabbath was a day of rest and relaxation, of being with family and chikling and not working....it was not used as a day of worshipping in synagogue or temple. Modern day Judaism combines Shabbat with rest and worship but in biblical times it was considered ok to just rest from working on that day.

It is not OK if we are talking about God's covenant; Saturday or the seventh day is God's Law and Sunday is God's Law despised. Or Sunday is wearing ones own Garments and only using God's name to hide one shame or guilt. Some keep Sunday in allegiance to God's enemy, mark on the forehead, others keep Sunday in ignorance of the issue, mark on the hand.

While “Sabbath” means rest, God deems Sabbath days Holy; whether they are the seventh day or an annual Sabbath; we are required to keep these days Holy; we cannot keep Sunday Holy because God has not made Sunday Holy in the first place; The Beast cannot make a day Holy, but because the beast has sanctified Sunday he has made Sunday unHoly.

Sabbath days were always to do with communion with God at God's request not at man's pleasure. The Sabbath days are instructional and prophetic symbolism regarding the Plan of Salvation; God sanctified the seventh day His enemy sanctified the first day; it is a trap.

 

[sparow]

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. For our rest and wellbeing. Like most of the laws, they are for our benefit. I don't see keeping the law as something required to get into heaven but of something God gave to us because He loves us and wants our health and wellbeing. So I like don't eat in Saturday for benefit of my body and mind and from love for Jesus. Born again believers obey the commandments not out of fear of hell but because they honour Jesus and know His ways are perfect


I don't even think of hell except as a place where non believers go and how important it is to share the Gospel with them so they like us will never perish

I know exactly what you mean, we are on the same page. The Born again Christians keeps the Law because they want to not because they have to; they have written on their mind, "Keep the seventh day Holy", while those from the other side have written on their forehead, "keep Sunday unholy".

Hell is a word that should not be in the Bible, it is not a translation of any Greek or Hebrew word; usually the correct translation is grave and we all go there.

 

[Junia]

The problem with the relaxed position is that Ellen G. White did teach the mark of the beast doctrine. I just never could remain loyal to any church that taught things that had no basis in Scripture. I got to the point where I was seeking to become a Roman Catholic but did find unorthodox views they hold and those views I didn't want to commit myself to. Fortunately the Anglican Church has no pet-doctrines and its doctrines are ancient and hold firm to Scripture. But there are many different Anglican divisions and not all of them follow Scripture. So my life finding the right denomination was a life long journey and I spent many years reading Scripture and the early church fathers of the first 4-centuries in order to sift out the denominations I didn't care for. When all is said and done I abandoned all home grown American churches as they all took Protestantism to an extreme much to radical for me.

Ellen g white didn't write the Bible we go by the Bible