Legalism: A discussion

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Pastor N.B.,

I printed it out and looked up every Scripture reference you gave.
Let me be honest and gentle with you here -I can't understand a single thing you are trying to say!

Between your buzz phrase ['save to save'] and all the half sentences, half ideas you wrote has left me completely confused on what you are trying to say.

Why don't you try this: leave out the scripture verses all together [I'm sure you will be able to back up whatever you say with them later if needed], and simply with full sentences write down what you believe the Covenant is.

Thanks,
mike
 
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Originally posted by mjwhite
Pastor N.B.,

I printed it out and looked up every Scripture reference you gave.
Let me be honest and gentle with you here -I can't understand a single thing you are trying to say!
**********************
Pastor N.B. here: Ok Mike:
Keep the post for later use. The [save to save] is SAFE TO SAVE, Ok?
Forget the gentle part part with me. I have been around a long time & am not easily disturbed by your honesty, :) . In fact I Love honesty :clap:
*******

Between your buzz phrase ['save to save'] and all the half sentences, half ideas you wrote has left me completely confused on what you are trying to say.

Why don't you try this: leave out the scripture verses all together [I'm sure you will be able to back up whatever you say with them later if needed], and simply with full sentences write down what you believe the Covenant is.
********
Pastor N.B. here again:
How can I come across as [not] being self centered here Mike. It is not what I think the Covenant is, it is what I know it is. The ten commandments are the only portion written by God Himself. And He wrote them in tables of stone. That is the Royal law of the universe.

Adam & Eve broke this law. That is how sin is defined in the Word of God. It says that sin is the trangression of the law. Do you understand this so far? Because of their sin, they needed to offer an lamb sacrifice. Most religions understand Gen. 3:15 to refer to faith in Christ's furture death on the cross. Now, there are a few covenants other than this most important one.
Circumcision was one covenant. It was done as a requirement, to point to the circumcism of the heart. (conversion)

Man will need to be converted to have this take place. He becomes a spiritual Jew the Word teaches. Ok now, without this taking place all works are [legalism] unless the person or persons are attempting to please Christ, and is growing toward full surender. This is like teaching our children good morals, ok? We want them to become MATURE. And be safe in any time of testing. Perhaps, smoking, drinking, or any moral temptations, even shunning [every appearence of evil].

Now, this is what Christ wants us to be, mature! SAFE TO SAVE. Adam & Eve were created, and the Word does not say that they were created good, but VERY GOOD! (PERFECT) Yet, God did not create them with PERFECT CHARACTERS, this took time to develope. Now, in faith & the Lamb sacrifice (work) they were on their way again to be safe to save.

Their first born son Cain went the other way in his final mature testing! Yet the Covenant was surely obeyed up to this time of his mature life. Do you suppose that mother & father were not sorely tested here?

They were tested over & over again all the while using the EVERLASTING GOSPEL. This is CHRIST'S PROVISIONS given to them as long as they needed them & WANTED THEM! The Word says that 'I Can do all things through Jesus Christ who STRENGTHENS ME. And Christ told Paul that HIS GRACE WAS SUFICIENT FOR HIM AND THAT IT WAS MADE [PERFECT IN WEAKNESS]. This was the only way that mankind could develope character.

The reason for being safe to save by testing, was so that 'sin would not arise a second time' in heaven, or it would have. God says that He 'scourges every son that He receiveth.' And that if we endure chastening God dealeth with us as sons. And if we are partakers, yet are without chastening, His Word calls us

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s.

(Mark, I have been censored by the forum moderators here for quoting scripture :)? So you will need to read what the Words Word was, that caused this. Try Heb. 12:8 in the Kings James version)

Now: The chastening comes in many forms, and for the sole purpose for us to develope character! The law of God, the COVENANT, (ten Commandments) are the Universial rule to form character by. OK?

Now comes the concept of what legalism is: All man is created with an desire to worship. To be converted is to be recreated with the LOVE OF CHRIST in our heart. If this has been done, then we now have Christ to be our MASTER. And we serve (WORK) Him because we [now] LOVE HIM.

Yet, if one tries to do any work, or the keeping of the ten commandments to 'earn' salvation, this is legalism. With the exception of keeping the conditions of the Covenant by accepting the Master & His provisions because He tells us to, but still, NOT TO EARN SALVATION.
Most uncoverted professed, call an love relationship [of obedience] to the Master's commandments, leagalism, perhaps? Yet it is impossible to be converted without the Holy Ghost, or without obedience! Acts 5:32. And 'obedience' to what? The 'everlasting Covenant' (Ten commandments)

Perhaps this is too much already? But hope this is fairly clear?
End of Pastor N.B. remarks.
********

Thanks,
mike
 
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Susan

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I know you're going to tell me that I am wrong. . .but what I get from that is that you believe that one must keep the 10 Commandments and the "Royal Law" to be saved.

I believe that faith in Christ Jesus, His death for our sins, and His Resurrection alone saves us. Not our work, but HIS! :)

All we need do is to believe in Jesus and HIS works in our place to be saved. There are no other *requirements.* :)
 
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Dear Pastor N.B.

you said,
Now comes the concept of what legalism is: All man is created with an desire to worship. To be converted is to be recreated with the LOVE OF CHRIST in our heart. If this has been done, then we now have Christ to be our MASTER. And we serve (WORK) Him because we [now] LOVE HIM.

Yet, if one tries to do any work, or the keeping of the ten commandments to 'earn' salvation, this is legalism. With the exception of keeping the conditions of the Covenant by accepting the Master & His provisions because He tells us to, but still, NOT TO EARN SALVATION.
Most uncoverted professed, call an love relationship [of obedience] to the Master's commandments, leagalism, perhaps? Yet it is impossible to be converted without the Holy Ghost, or without obedience! Acts 5:32. And 'obedience' to what? The 'everlasting Covenant' (Ten commandments)


It seems i agree with all of this, except what you mean by obedience. If one believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead, and confesses with their mouth that He is Lord they will be saved. Obedience follows because one's heart is grateful to God and seeks to return His love by obeying.

And what do you mean by 'safe to save'?
 
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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Pastor N.B.

you said,
Now comes the concept of what legalism is: All man is created with an desire to worship. To be converted is to be recreated with the LOVE OF CHRIST in our heart. If this has been done, then we now have Christ to be our MASTER. And we serve (WORK) Him because we [now] LOVE HIM.

(zapped for length: all is posted in the above forum)

It seems i agree with all of this, except what you mean by obedience. If one believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead, and confesses with their mouth that He is Lord they will be saved. Obedience follows because one's heart is grateful to God and seeks to return His love by obeying.

And what do you mean by 'safe to save'?


***********
Dear M.J. (thats a famous name huh?)
On a serious note, first you quote a verse & a true promise. But can ANY verse be used this way??? (I ask this in Christian brotherly love!)

:idea: There comes to mind the devil quoting to Christ Himself, almost an exact inspired truth, it is from Psalms 91:11. It was in Matt. 4:6 that the devil gave this 'promise' [without any condition]. Your quoted promise above says "IF", does that not include the total requirements of Matt. 28:20??? "teaching them to OBSERVE ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.." And lets see what was stated by the devil & then Christ's answer for this question???

's'atan quoted: "And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it [IS] written, [HE SHALL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE CONCERNING THEE: AND IN THEIR HANDS THEY SHALL BEAR THEE UP, LEAST AT ANY TIME THOU DASH THY FOOT AGAINST A STONE."

What is wrong with that PROMISE?? Are we not taught to claim it all the time, even as the devil has stated it to Christ?? Think about it?? Do you remember the verse before it? (also check 1 Cor. 14:32!)
The Master said in verse 4, that: "IT IS WRITTEN, MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, [BUT BY 'EVERY WORD' THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD]". (and what are we hearing daily? Matt., Mark, Luke & John are the Gospels alone, and with NO CONDITIONS!) We will see how long the Gospel has been around a few lines on down.

The devil quotes the promise (as you have done-and 'we' have been schooled to do this, wrongly!) without the CONDITIONS for the promise. Try 2 Tim. 3:16 for the complete 'ALL Scripture' need to establish Truth.

But lets see what the Master told satan in verse 7??
"Jesus said unto him, IT IS WRITTEN AGAIN, THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD." Here is surely an condition to the promise! Yet my friend, where did it come from? The New Testament? No, ALL OF SCRIPTURE IS OUR MASTER'S [WORD}! Notice Deut. 6:16

"YE SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD YOUR GOD, .." Old Testament! Claiming Salvation without testing to see if we will be safe to save?? Na. 1:9

Now the bottom line: all verses will stand upon [the Whole] of God's WORD-ALL 66 BOOKS! The [Everlasting Gospel] with the [Everlasting COVENANT]. They [[cannot be seperated]] as promises without the EVERLASTING CONDITIONS, that IS the ONLY PORTION WRITTEN BY GOD! Isa. 8:20. (that is what we yield our 'will' too!) Try Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20 for the eternity of EVERLASTING. NO BEGINNING as well as ENDING!

Now in closing, you ask about 'Safe to Save'? Read Heb. 12:1-8. Verse 8 mentions the important Words of 'ye are Partakers'! God will see to it that we will develope a character to be safe to save, [IF] we will not 'run' from the tough tests, the hard things of life for us to do. Eze. 9 for one case of the 'sin of omission'. Think of these tests in Isa. 5:3 & our testing in Rev. 18:4? We just flat out will not be saved, unless we pass this test! Claiming a verse or a profession alone will not work. Yet, think of what our reply to the Word of God in those two verses are??? ['JUDGE BETWIXT ME & MY VINEYARD'] & COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, [AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES."

Even this exchange of missives between you & 'i', is not the easiest of work. Even if we see it done in love. (most might not? :scratch: )

Always ask why Adam & Eve had to be tested, all the while knowing that they were created sinless? (like us at conversion Rom. 8:1) God said that they were [VERY GOOD], not just good, but PERFECT. The only thing that God cannot give His creation who He has decreed with freedom of choice, is a PERFECT CHARACTER. This we will have to develope. All the while using the PROVISIONS that our Master has [freely given], "IF" we will? (free will & CONDITIONAL) Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9.

I am sorry it took so long to respond!
Your true friend in the Master's quickly finished work for the 'House of God' first,
Pastor N.B.
 
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Dear N.B.,

Make up your mind. Is salvation by faith alone based on the work of Christ, or is it based on that as well as our own righteousness [our obedience]?

If you think you need to make yourself safe to save, then you misunderstand salvation by grace altogether. If you preach these things, then you might be the very people Paul had in mind when he wrote to the galatians, and accursed those who preach another gospel which is not a gospel at all.

And I do speak this in love to you for to turn one from their sins can save their soul.

In Jesus who alone is the savior,
mike
 
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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear N.B.,

Make up your mind. Is salvation by faith alone based on the work of Christ, or is it based on that as well as our own righteousness [our obedience]?

If you think you need to make yourself safe to save, then you misunderstand salvation by grace altogether. If you preach these things, then you might be the very people Paul had in mind when he wrote to the galatians, and accursed those who preach another gospel which is not a gospel at all.

And I do speak this in love to you for to turn one from their sins can save their soul.

In Jesus who alone is the savior,
mike

***************

Hay guy,
What kind of NONSENSE is that???? First you tell me that I can not go to hell [by HAVING BELIEVING FAITH] & then you now tell me that I am going to hell for doing what I am telling you? :scratch: And they talk about Babylon? Rev. 14:8.

And: [My mind] has [never] faltered. I have been there, done that. I was from a family that was rich on my dad's side & 13 kid poor on my mom's side. One educated & the other educated only on the meaningful 'spiritual' side. I had been locked up & even shot at. It was not until 'i' met my Master that this became 35+ yrs. past/tense. Rom. 6:9-11. And most of the people with [your theology] that are in todays setting, are still living as I once was. Smoking, shacking up, killing each other all in the name of Christ, all the while being your kind of [Christians Believers]. Or do these ones who [[believe in Christ]] as you do, not need to obey the Law of God [by works] as you teach? (someone at least? see Eph. 6:12)
Read [your news] paper! Nation-Sunday, August 11, 2002 "CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS ORDERS TO KEEP ABUSIVE PRIESTS WORKING" Why not, they BELIEVE, huh! :sleep: Matt. 25.

So don't tell me what being a Christian is. (your kind of teaching is [WORK OF OBEDIENCE 'DEAD'!], Acts 5:32! James 2! For you do not have the faintest idea of what being a Christian is!! You remind me of another in John 3:10 or Jn. 12:42-43.

And: when you get a hold on Paul in Gal.? let me know! Your remarks are what causes the un/saved & the atheist to be lost! They look at [your stuff] & see that they and you, are only different in a 'claim' of [WORKLESS] 'c'hristianity! (and you love Christ??? Rev. 3:16-17)

And, who wants to be a 'professed Christian' that lives in [open] sin?? (No law obedience!) Not even these un/saved as yet, ones perhaps. Even they understand what a hypercrite is. See Rom. 2. They are at least searching for a POWERFUL CHRIST perhaps, that of Phil. 4:13, or the Paul that you also dis/honor as in 2 Cor. 12:9, a Truth that lives their profession! NOT TO BE SAVED, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED!! A WORKING [LOVE] FOR THEIR MASTER!!! An EVERLASTING {{{COVENANT}}} RELATIONSHIP! Heb. 13:20

So get off your silly remarks to me! Lovingly friend, you are not very spiritually alert! Go on back to your 'pacifier' of Heb. 5:11-14. For you sure are not ready for chapter 6:1-6 for the 'maturity' process. (growing up! of developing character to stand the test)
Your day [of testing] is soon to come in the last test of 666. We will see which Christ [WE] really serve at that time!

In the Master's quickly finished work for the 'House of God' First, 1 Peter 4:17
Pastor N.B.
 
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Originally posted by Susan
I know you're going to tell me that I am wrong. . .but what I get from that is that you believe that one must keep the 10 Commandments and the "Royal Law" to be saved.

I believe that faith in Christ Jesus, His death for our sins, and His Resurrection alone saves us. Not our work, but HIS! :)

All we need do is to believe in Jesus and HIS works in our place to be saved. There are no other *requirements.* :)
************
Dear friend:
What 'i' believe matters little. But, what the Gospel teaches is fact. Not emotion, or a feeling, but just fact. I might not like it? And even fight against it? And still be a converted born again believer. Yet, that still does not altar the fact, that it is truth.

Now, you say that I am going to say that you are wrong? The only way for God to change His Children's mistakes is for HIS WORD to do it. What we say (you or me) means very little. OK? Read John 10:16 & Rev. 18:4. This again is the Word of God. (both new testament verses) Both of these verses teach that 'Belief alone' just will not do it.

Just a couple more verses that are HIS INSPIRATION, HIS WORD, HIS TRUTH.
(not me, or mine)

"If ye [LOVE ME] KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" John 14:15

Why does one keep His commandments? Because we LOVE THE ONE THAT HAS SAVED US! Now, if we do not keep them, do we LOVE HIM?

1 John 2:4 answers that. (again, this is not me talking!)
"He that sayeth, I know Him, (or loveth Him) and keepeth [not His commandments] is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now again: This is the Word of God talking. This is FACT & TRUTH! If I can be reached & be led by the Spirit of God (see Rom. 8:14) it is the Word of God that must do it! (not me, ok?) Will the commandments of God save me?
No. But, can I Love my Savior & not keep His commandments? No.
In fact, He tells us that we can even have a 'lukewarm' love for Him, and that because this is so, [He will spew us out]. (see Rev. 3:16-17) The only way that any can have a true Agape love in the first place, is by being born again. Jn. 3:3 & 2 Cor. 3:3.

OK: three last verses. Eccl. 12:13-14. (two here)
"Let us hear [the conclusion] of the [whole matter]: Fear God, and [keep His commandments]: for this is the [whole duty of man].
This is verse 13. Let me re/emphasize this before quoting the next verse?

THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER? Bottom line, our 'mature' grown up ending from 'milk to meet'. (Heb. 5 & 6) TRUE LOVE for our motive! Will we be saved if we do not LOVE OUR MASTER?? [The WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.]
Our [DUTY] is said to 'FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS'! Again, precious one, this is the WORD OF GOD SPEAKING, INSPIRED BY THE HOLY GHOST. (it is not me telling you that you are wrong, ok? That is your question to answer, are you wrong?

OK: verse 14 ibide.
"For God shall bring [every work] into [judgement, with every secret thing,] wheather it [be good, or wheather it be evil]." A Judgement after one has a 'BELIEF"? WHY??

Question: Why bring [every work] into judgement, if 'a professed belief is enough'?
Even the 'secret' good or bad? re/read verse 13 again for who this conclusion is for!

And the conclusion of the Word for now:

Eze. 18:24 "But when [the righteous] turneth away from his rightousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, [shall he live?] (notice, now once again, it is the Word doing the answering, not me. Yet, we are hearing many today calling God a liar, are we not?) ALL HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAT HE HATH DONE SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED: IN HIS TRESPASS THAT HE HATH TREPASSED, AND IN HIS SIN THAT HE HATH SINNED, IN THEM [SHALL HE DIE]."

P/N/B/
 
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Dear Susan,

You wanted to talk about legalism, and here in N.B. you have a legalist. Who better to show us what legalism is?

How can we avoid legalism if we think that our actions lead us to heaven or hell [depending on what they are]? Answer, we can't!

For salvation to be free of legalism, we must realize that it is God who saves us and we are sinners. He just doesn't save us at rebirth, but He is always saving us since we as sinners are our own worst enemy. Legalists, like N.B. or the Pharisees are not bad people who go around sinning, BUT ratjer are people who try very hard to be good so as to be 'safe to save'. But they are not good [only the Father in heaven is], so in order to have some peace in their heart they devise a legalistic system that allows them to feel safe in their own self righteousness as opposed to resting in the righteousness of Christ.

Hence despite their claims that they serve God because they love Him, they cannot serve God from a pure heart [and so do it out of love] because they are chasing after that elusive righteousness that makes them ;safe to save'. So they boast of their own righteousness [to cover up their lack] while they declare others who are not so pristine as they are in danger of hell. They are not trusting in God to save them, but they are trusting in themselves to make themselves 'righteous' enough to be accepted by a holy God.

But their holiness always falls short of Him, so their doctrines shortsheet His holiness so theirs will shine brighter, so they think. But they are sinners like everyone else. I will respond to both of these last two posts of N.B. soon.
 
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JohnR7

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>>I believe that faith in Christ Jesus, His death for our sins, and His Resurrection alone saves us. Not our work, but HIS!

That is a good start, to understand it is not what we "do". For it is by grace we are saved not of works, least any man should boast.

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. When they fell into sin, they took on the nature of the devil as their father and they were no longer a reflection of God. When we become born again, we once again became children of God. We take on a divine nature and the mind of Christ.

As the pastor said: "I can sin all I want to, I just don't want to". Sinners sin, because that is their nature. Children of God do not sin, because that is not their nature.

Here is a list of some of the things that make up the mind of Christ:

http://home.neo.rr.com/johnr7/MindChrist/
 
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Rafael

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Jesus said to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. He didn't much care for the scribes either. He said that they loved to go long distances to get converts and would "shut up the gates of heaven to many". The prayer of the Pharisee and the sinner is a good example of the sort of character God doesn't want to see in us. Legalism, usually has some law that someone thinks someone else is breaking..........Well, there are laws, but Jesus said the Pharisees would strain knats and swallow camels. They would put you in hell for pulling your donkey out of a ditch on Sabbath day, but would walk around a man that was beat up on the road and in need of assistance.
I've met many Pharisees in my life and have been a little one myself a few times. It takes time to learn to not be judgmental with people before you ever consider loving them.........It's just the old nature that has to be put to death daily on our way to the cross.

A little Bible study on the Pharisees and Jesus warning about them has helped me understand how God uses conviction and reward of love to draw us near instead of law, guilt, and fear of punishment. The Pharisees even had laws about which way the water drained off when they washed their hands - finger tips or elbows :( .

Mercy is greater than judgment. :)

PS. This is an excellent topic to discuss and has very much validity. There is much to learn about legalism and the liberty that we have in Christ. There are boundaries to discuss.
 
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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Susan,

You wanted to talk about legalism, and here in N.B. you have a legalist. Who better to show us what legalism is?...

(zapped for content)

....so their doctrines shortsheet His holiness so theirs will shine brighter, so they think. But they are sinners like everyone else. I will respond to both of these last two posts of N.B. soon.
******************
Dear Friends Susan & MJ. (forum & with added emphasis)
Mans words alone are worth absolutely nothing! It is what the Word of God says that is what we are to live by! Matt. 4:4 "Every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" OK?

It is [my] bottom line belief, that if serving God for ANY OTHER REASON THAN THAT WE LOVE HIM, it IS that, that is [LEGALISM]! Read John 1:10. And the reason that the LAST TRUE DENOMINATION is 'discarded to hell' is because of a LOVE relationship! (or what does spewed out mean-and the 'sickening love of 'Lukewarm'?)

Leagalism?? :scratch:
Which one of these are the 'legalists' according to John's inspired Words in this verse??
"He that saith, (?) I know (love) Him, and keepeth [not His Commandments], is a [liar, and the truth is not in him]."
Read it carefully! These ones are professing that they KNOW HIM, and yet are NOT KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS. In fact, we see a totally different message. But NOTICE & be sure that they do have a message here in this verse! Which of the two are legalists? Inspiration say that they are liars with no truth. Acts 4:12 is ONLY A PROFESSION.

OK: Just a couple more. Paul penned more on this question of what a legalist is. This sounds very clear, to answer your question?

Rom. 2:13 "For not the [hearers] (the ones who hear or know ) of the law [are JUST before God] but the [DOERS of the law *SHALL BE JUSTIFIED]."

One of these two are 'Leagelist'. Which one?

Now for the reason why [LOVE] is the only [motive] that is acceptable.
"Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN" If this is not a starting point of a Christian, then Christ need not have died. For mankind would [already have true agape love to serve the Master with]. (and none did)

What transpires at the 'new birth'? (The FIRST HEART TRANSPLANT)
2 Cor. 3:2-3 in part.
"Ye are our epistle (letter) written [in our hearts], KNOWN AND READ OF ALL MEN. (it seems that Paul was speaking to only the true believers. because this is not the message that we are hearing today! but lets go on..)
Forasmuch [as ye are MANIFESTLY DECLARED TO BE THE EPISTLE OF CHRIST MINISTERED BY US], (these ones are ALL the letter of Christ, notice!) WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, [BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD]; (notice!) *[NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART]."

Now: Which ones are the Leagalist? The ones that have the Law of God written in their hearts or the ones that are trying to get to heaven as was Nicodemus?? Again notice the above Words, Heart (MIND) & LAW.

"THEREFORE thou shalt [love the Lord thy God], and [keep His charge, and His statues, and his judgements, [and His commandments], alway." Deut. 11:1 -----And who are the born again ones?? Surely they [MUST] have the Holy Spirit! See Acts 5:32.

Friends: All of this is prophesied in Eze. 11:19-20! :clap: "And I [will] give them one heart, [and I will put a new spirit within you]; and [I WILL GIVE THEM AN HEART OF FLESH; THAT THEY MAY WALK IN MY STATUES, AND KEEP MY ORDINANCES, AND DO THEM]: and [I WILL BE THEIR GOD]." (who are the legalist, &, is this their God? This is the question?)


THE NEW COVENANT:
"But this is the [COVENANT] that [I WILL MAKE] with the House of Israel, (pause! for surely 'i' will hear about Israel? Read Rom. 2:28-29 for who true Israel are) After those days, saieth the Lord, [I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be [THEIR GOD, AND *THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE]."

What is a COVENANT? A conctract, an agreement between two people, at least, a Pledge! That is what baptism is ALL about is it not? Matt. 28:20.
And it is "GOSPEL'IZED AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT", with just a [NEW LOCATION! :clap: See Heb. 13:20

One last remark: This is printed for only one reason. It is for us to learn Truth.
There is nothing in this 'old' man that is trying to read motives of your relationship with Christ. Yet, we see that UNITY will be accomplished before He comes for us. And there will be no unity accomplished outside of scripture.

P/N/B/
 
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Rafael

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Pastor NB.....
Thanks for all your hard work in the scriptures, and I agree with the Word of God on all these things. Why then, do I have a hard time understanding what safe to save is? I've always been of the mind that the Good News and whatever God wants me to know must be simple to understand, and if God was trying to hide something from me.......well, I guess He would be rejecting me and a lot of people which He has the right to do, as Creator. I don't think that is true, though.
God will surely test our faith and bring forth the impurities with fire, like how gold becomes more pure. I've seen trouble upon trouble in this life and have clung to faith. I think life naturally bring these troubles, in it's present fallen state, and that trusting God to put a clean heart in us that will be inclined to obey is our best hope. Even in the Lord's prayer, Jesus prays, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil". I know myself pretty well, and have tried to be something like those I admire in God's Word. I have failed over and over, felt horrible guilt from the enemy, and got up and tried again only because I believe that his mercy, forgiveness, and loving kindnesses never end.
Your observations about the Ark of the covenant were interesting and I'll have to go over them again and again, but if you can explain to me in modern English about safe to save and the significance of the articles being put in the side of the Ark, please do. I am very interested, but perhaps a bit dense. Thank you.
 
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Dear N.B.,

You said
Dear Friends Susan & MJ. (forum & with added emphasis)
Mans words alone are worth absolutely nothing! It is what the Word of God says that is what we are to live by! Matt. 4:4 "Every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" OK?

It is [my] bottom line belief, that if serving God for ANY OTHER REASON THAN THAT WE LOVE HIM, it IS that, that is [LEGALISM]! Read John 1:10. And the reason that the LAST TRUE DENOMINATION is 'discarded to hell' is because of a LOVE relationship! (or what does spewed out mean-and the 'sickening love of 'Lukewarm'?)


You said what I am saying, that serving God for ANY OTHER REASON THAN THAT WE LOVE HIM IS LEGALISM. So why are we on two different pages? Let us see if we can come to an understanding if even we might not totally agree.

You continue…
Leagalism??
Which one of these are the 'legalists' according to John's inspired Words in this verse??
"He that saith, (?) I know (love) Him, and keepeth [not His Commandments], is a [liar, and the truth is not in him]."
Read it carefully! These ones are professing that they KNOW HIM, and yet are NOT KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS. In fact, we see a totally different message. But NOTICE & be sure that they do have a message here in this verse! Which of the two are legalists? Inspiration say that they are liars with no truth. Acts 4:12 is ONLY A PROFESSION.


It seems you are asking which one of these two people are legalists, the one who says he loves Jesus but fails to keep the commandments or the one who does keep the commandments [and therefore shows his love for the Lord]. This is from 1st John 2:4

Let us look in that same book to 1:8-10. It says that …If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Now we seem to have a slight problem, for if we say we have not disobeyed the commandments [sin] then we are liars, but if we disobey the commandments yet say we love Him, we also are liars. Now who does not sin? Who ALWAYS treats others like they want to be treated and loves God more than themselves AT ALL TIMES? Hence one could say that we are all liars and the truth is not in us, BUT…

Go back to 1st John 2:4 and read a little further in the Word to get the context. Verse 5 tells us that… But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

What the Spirit is telling us through John is that we are not yet perfected in Christ, not yet. But that we can mature in Christ by submitting to His love that is in our hearts via the Spirit. Reading both of these first two chapters of 1st John, we can see that we do stumble, i.e. sin, and that we need to repent when we do sin. When we sin, we are not walking in love towards Christ, we are not keeping His commandments. We need to learn from our mistakes, right our ship through submission to the Lord, and go on in MATURITY towards the goal of having His love “perfected in him”.

N.B. continues
OK: Just a couple more. Paul penned more on this question of what a legalist is. This sounds very clear, to answer your question?
Rom. 2:13 "For not the [hearers] (the ones who hear or know ) of the law [are JUST before God] but the [DOERS of the law *SHALL BE JUSTIFIED]."
One of these two are 'Leagelist'. Which one?


N.B. asks which is a legalist, the doer of the law or one who just hears it.
Both could be. Legalism is not about whether the law is perfectly kept or not, but rather whether keeping the law [perfectly] is necessary for salvation. If one breaks the law in one point, he has broken all of it. James 2:8-10 tells us… If you really fulfill the royal law according to Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Those under the law [those the law has power over] have to obey it perfectly or be convicted by it and be counted among the transgressors and are found guilty. BUT…

Romans 8:1-3 tells us… There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Sin in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.

And in Romans 7:6, it tells us… But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Since we are not under the law, we are not condemned by it. Since we have died to the law, it has no power over us.

N.B. continues in his post, [read it above] for details to explain that we are born again, and he speaks of our getting a new heart.
And then he asks….
Now: Which ones are the Leagalist? The ones that have the Law of God written in their hearts or the ones that are trying to get to heaven as was Nicodemus?? Again notice the above Words, Heart (MIND) & LAW.

"THEREFORE thou shalt [love the Lord thy God], and [keep His charge, and His statues, and his judgements, [and His commandments], alway." Deut. 11:1 -----And who are the born again ones?? Surely they [MUST] have the Holy Spirit! See Acts 5:32.


Now I do not disagree with N.B. that we must have the Holy Spirit, and the royal law to love God with all and others as self, written on our hearts. He asks which is the legalist, the one with the law written on their heart or a man like Nicodemus. Again that is not the right question. The question is this, IF WE HAVE THE ROYAL LAW WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS, DO WE NEED THE WRITTEN LAW?
Answer- NO!

And if the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins, then our transgressions of the law [our sins] are already paid for. That is why we are not condemned. Look at Romans 8:1 again, then back up 2 verses into chapter 7 [24-25]…O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God –through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

We no longer need the law if it is written on our hearts.

N.B. then says…
What is a COVENANT? A conctract, an agreement between two people, at least, a Pledge! That is what baptism is ALL about is it not? Matt. 28:20.


The direct answer to his question is NO. Matthew 28:20 tells us…. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Now, if we recall Jesus spent about three years teaching His disciples. If we take three years to teach those whom we disciple, is it possible that they might break commandments before they are completely taught? And did not Peter need to be rebuked by Paul? [Read Gal. Chapter 2] So we are talking about a maturing process. It is like how children grow up in this world, learning the proper ways to act as we teach them; so it is like that with us as we grow up in the Lord.

N.B gain
And it is "GOSPEL'IZED AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT", with just a [NEW LOCATION! See Heb. 13:20


Here is the Word –[Hebrews 13: 20-21]… Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Again the thrust of the passage is that God is bringing us to maturity, NOT that we are already perfect.
But remember, those under the law must obey it perfectly or they are guilty of breaking ALL of it.

N.B. finishes:
One last remark: This is printed for only one reason. It is for us to learn Truth.
There is nothing in this 'old' man that is trying to read motives of your relationship with Christ. Yet, we see that UNITY will be accomplished before He comes for us. And there will be no unity accomplished outside of scripture.


I agree that there is no unity outside of scripture ONLY if we rely on the newness of the Spirit and not on the oldness of the letter. N.B., since our motivation is LOVE and not fear, why do you say we HAVE to ALWAYS be obedient or not be SAFE to SAVE? Love rests in itself and is not condemning. Fear is always seeking to be safe for it believes itself not safe [and therefore fearful]. If you are trying to make your self SAFE to SAVE, then you are serving fear and not love.

mike
 
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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Susan,

You wanted to talk about legalism, and here in N.B. you have a legalist. Who better to show us what legalism is?
********
:confused: Pastor N.B. here:
M.J.: (forum)
Which way is it, which M.J. do we see, I am a legalist? And then there is 2 Cor. 4:2 for one of us perhaps? Then comes Babylom confussion?

Am 'i' a legalist or not? Boy, O'boy, what 'mind' reading goes on in the 'saved by faith' group, huh?!

If that was an aspology from M.J. surely he can do better than that! :)

And Peter said that Paul's work was hard to be understood? Wow! :scratch:
*******

Ralph: (sp?)
i wrote up a missive to your post & it was rejected? Anyway, if you will email me with your email address i will get back to you with a site where I will post your reply to?
P/N/B
 
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Rafael

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I guess this thread became unhinged with emotion a little while back so I'll close with saying:
My personal experience with God tells me that there is no easy believeism. My knees turn to water when I think of standing before God and giving an account of my wretched life. I made all the mistakes and did everything wrong and would caution people to be careful about sin because it is true to God's Word in coming back around in life to haunt. Especially in looking back over life and seeing nothing but failure and wasted time. It starts to really come home about the age of fifty.

I've worked hard to try and be a Christian and it isn't easy. Even with a new nature, the pressures of the old nature are always there in the battle between the flesh and the Spirit. If any overcoming has or will be done, it will ultimately be done by the blood of the lamb, in my case. The Bible is there to tell us how to live our lives. If we don't do it, there is reward to forfeit, but the Bible says that some peoples works will be tried by fire and they will make it through even if they are a bit singed.

There is a balance to all things, and our works here on earth are important and accountable, but the greatest work has nothing that can be added to it.

Having grown up with a very legalistic group, I rebeled against God totally as a youth when I was told constantly that all the different people I knew were going to hell because they didn't believe the way we did. My young mind couldn't take it. They even had scriptures to prove that black people were slaves and decendants of Cain, bound for hell. Instruments for church service were forbidden even though the old testament was full of them. They had done away with the law, they said, all together, yet came up with new ones I could not find in the Bible. To me, that was and is legalism - following their own laws while breaking the major laws of love.
 
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