I'll try and say what I actually mean. Of course helping others is doing what God wants. That's why it says "Saved to Serve".
Ok. We are agreed there, then.
But people are naturally going to be resistant to what we are telling them through the word. Is it love, if we do not tell them about the truth that we know? Is it love, if we do not tell them that the way they are going, they are going straight to hell? It doesn't have to be a preacher on the side of the road preaching damnation - no I don't think that's a good idea. But it seems that society has no problem with us doing our good works, but has a problem with us as soon as we mention the gospel.
::nods::
The church only got to where it is today because the apostles were told by authorities not to preach the gospel, and did anyway. That's what I'm trying to say. They preached Jesus alive, when he died. They preached Salvation when the world around them preached death.
::nods::
Well...I feel the answer is to stop being "nice" and think of the big picture. You can't argue the church in China isn't charitable - but they succeed because they preach when they aren't allowed to. Of course we don't do things to annoy people - but when truth is not told because it annoys people, well that's a problem.
I agree, with the proviso that the way we proclaim the gospel is important; one can do it in such a way that people stop listening, or one can do it in such a way as gives the best chance of them listening. Sometimes one needs to be subtle in the way one approaches the issue: "Act wisely with outsiders, making the best of the present time. Always talk pleasantly and with flavour of wit
but be sensitive to the kind of answer each one requires." (Colossians 4:5-6, NJB).
I'm not saying the Salvos should change into an army of street preachers. I'm saying we're going to have to do things that may offend people and damage our name.
You may, but don't do it lightly. The name you have is valuable (it makes it harder to dismiss what you say on many issues in comparison with other churches), so don't blow it away and less you are very sure of what you are doing.
I'm saying we have to preach when we do our works, even if it's against social norm or possibly even the law.
Sure, in ways that are appropriate, and depending exactly what the laws prohibit.
I'm saying we have to sing Jesus name in the street even if it offends people. I'm not saying we should preach damnation - we never did that. We preached Salvation, and we should do so. What good is bread and food in this life, if there is no bread and wine for the next life?
Clearly some. You're right in the fact that we need to be doing both, but while most of the church is too light on enacting the kingdom, at worst if you are too heavy on that and too light on preaching it you are helping to balance an unbalanced church. Seen in terms of the whole church,
if increased "upfront" preaching on the part of the Salvos decreases your ability to enact the kingdom then it will serve to unbalance the whole church further.
There is a cost of following Christ...I do believe he told us that? But whoever believes in me shall deny himself and carry the cross and follow me? We are no longer following Christ. We are submitting to social norm instead of Jesus.
I'm not at all sure you are.
And what if the very thing God does want us to do is to preach the word.
You have to decide that for yourselves, but I suspect overall he has called the Salvos to make up for deficencies in the rest of the church that is better at preaching the word than enacting it.
All the prophets, were rejected and killed for preaching and asking for people to repent!
That doesn't mean everyone is called to major on that.
Again I ask - is it love, if we do not preach our gospel?
It may be, if it allows you to enact it futher.
Is it love not to preach the gospel just because it offends someone? We know they are going to hell!
If your actions make the kingdom of God a greater reality than your words would it may be.
Unless you're a universalist, that is what you believe right? Is it right to sit here and continue our religious worship when souls are lost everyday?
Our religious worship, our proclaiming the kingdom in words of mission, and our embodying the kingdom in action are all ways we work towards God's redeeming purpose. If you lose one of those three the others become shadows of what they should be: mission proclamations that aren't soaked in prayer and worship before, during and after will fail. mission proclamations that aren't embeded within an embodied anticpation of what the kingdom will be are doomed to fail. God works through our prayer and our actions to bring people to himself, as well as the words we say to them.
Is it not a tragedy and yes I use tragedy when people die without knowing God?
Of course it is, but we must not lose sight of the big picture.
I truly hope that we've got it all wrong about Jesus being the only way. Because that would mean that there is still hope for those that have died. But we know that's not true! Preaching damnation in hatred is of course not a good thing - but preaching salvation through Christ is very necessary thing in my opinion. We don't want God hates [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] types of teaching. But we should at least ask - what hope do you have broken world? What good does your jobs, your money do for you? Because Ecclesiastes is such a powerful book. If what we believe is false - then we may as well go and eat drink and be merry!
all true (at least to a point), but ...
I do not accept that doing charitable works is enough...there are so many times in the OT...God hates our worship, hates our songs, hates our offerings...why? Because there are oppressed people, because all the Jews did was offer worship not of true value.
Worship, 'charity', and proclamation are all non-negotiable. But I think you need to see yourselves as part of the bigger church; a church that isn't doing enough about the oppresion of poverty. To overstate and oversimplfy the case, if you major on the 'charity' and the rest of us major on 'proclamation' then between us it's possible we are getting the balance right. If you move the emphasis from charity to verbal proclamation then the whole church becomes more unbalanced. Ideally, of course, all of us are doing all three well, but that certainly isn't the current situation.
What if worship today calls for us to be hated? What if worship today means that we have to suffer the scorn of this world? What if we have to preach, be hated for it, and still turn around and serve them?
That's all fine, providing:
a. being hated isn't making your proclamation
less effective
b. being hated isn't stopping you serving.
And isn't that EXACTLY what Jesus did?
Yes and no - while a large proportion of people didn't buy his message, it seems that it's those with a vested interest subverted by it (the 'authorities' of Rome, Temple, and Torah) actually hated him.