Pavel Mosko

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I was curious about what lasting legacy the Ben Lomond Crisis has had. I have some personal interest in that because that church was in my parents backyard so to speak. It was the first Orthodox (or Eastern Church of any kind) that I ever attended. I actually thought seriously about converting etc. but something didn't feel right so I didn't. A month or so after I stopped attending I got news about the schism. I didn't believe it at first and thought the person was confusing it with some other place but in a minute or so I realized what he was talking about made sense and it explained a few odd things that were unusual at the time (lots of priests and deacons for one church etc.).



Ben Lomond: When Antiochian Orthodoxy Drove Away its Converts


Ben Lomond Crisis - OrthodoxWiki
 

Pavel Mosko

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I don't think there is much of a legacy. as an example, the Antiochians and OCA are pretty close and have been for a while.


What about dealing with converts? Especially when it comes to clergy and church conversions etc.

I guess I see the event as a cautionary tale that while converts can bring a lot of energy and enthusiasm to a church body, that they can also potentially cause your church to explode. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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What about dealing with converts? Especially when it comes to clergy and church conversions etc.

I guess I see the event as a cautionary tale that while converts can bring a lot of energy and enthusiasm to a church body, that they can also potentially cause your church to explode. :)

sure, but that's nothing really unique to the Church's history with this incident.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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It's always a bad idea to allow entire religious groups convert to a new one..

Are you talking about the whole "the Evangelical Orthodox" group, or the various incidents where a parish/church converts?


I actually think most of the former Evangelical Orthodox did OK. And there have been some good successes bringing in various individual Protestant congregations that began the journey of the ancient way.
 
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E.C.

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I know this crisis rather well. My stepsister was going through a divorce down there when it happened (not related to the crisis, but it didn't help matters) and I have read some of the statements that the priests, both deposed and not deposed, have written. I also spoke with some survivors of the crisis when I lived in California back in 2012. I have not been to the Ben Lomond parish, but I have been to the one in Felton three miles down the road.

Firstly, I feel that this episode in American Orthodoxy does not get addressed enough. There is a lot to learn from it, but we don't talk about it because it is uncomfortable and therefore not a socially acceptable subject to bring up. One of the biggest factors that gets left out of the narrative is that the ex-EOC communities did not necessarily drop all of their non-Orthodox habits. For example, part of why the Antiochians today only use Antiochian music is because the ex-EOC communities would take Protestant songs, like Amazing Graze, then "Orthodox-ize" the lyrics and label it American Chant. Another thing that gets ignored is the fact that the EOC was a cult and as a cult they had many bad habits when it came to what we'd call parish life. They had many home tendencies that one would find in the old documentary "Jesus Camp" just with an Orthodox exterior.

It's always a bad idea to allow entire religious groups convert to a new one..
I agree. At the very least they should have integrated them parish by parish. It also didn't help that Metropolitan Philip broke a few canons by ordaining all the priests on the same altar at the same church on the same day. It really didn't help that almost none of the ones who became priests had spent any actual time at an Orthodox seminary or that Fr Gillquist was an egotistical maniac (my stepmother's words reflecting on her time in Eagle River where Gillquist demanded a 20-foot high throne when he was an EOC "bishop").


I was curious about what lasting legacy the Ben Lomond Crisis has had. I have some personal interest in that because that church was in my parents backyard so to speak. It was the first Orthodox (or Eastern Church of any kind) that I ever attended. I actually thought seriously about converting etc. but something didn't feel right so I didn't. A month or so after I stopped attending I got news about the schism. I didn't believe it at first and thought the person was confusing it with some other place but in a minute or so I realized what he was talking about made sense and it explained a few odd things that were unusual at the time (lots of priests and deacons for one church etc.).
I feel some of this could have been avoided if more of the clergy had been farmed out to other parishes. A few were. My old parish had their first deacon from Ben Lomond about a year before it all happened.

Even more of the crisis could have been avoided if Metropolitan Philip and Bishop Joseph didn't react with the diplomacy of Caligula.

There are many people on the West Coast who were effected by it directly and indirectly. I personally have yet to go to a convert-heavy parish in the West Coast that didn't have at least two families effected by the crisis. Many left Orthodoxy entirely because of it. I knew one gentleman in an OCA parish in California who was an EOC "bishop" before their conversion to Orthodoxy who was divorced because of the crisis (he turned down the offer of being a priest because he felt he needed actual time being Orthodox before he could tell others how to be Orthodox).

Pavel Mosko, if this thread gets shut down at some point, feel free to PM me. I'm always happy to talk about Ben Lomond. Sometimes we need to discuss the elephant in the room in order to learn how to avoid having more elephants in the room.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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One of the biggest factors that gets left out of the narrative is that the ex-EOC communities did not necessarily drop all of their non-Orthodox habits. For example, part of why the Antiochians today only use Antiochian music is because the ex-EOC communities would take Protestant songs, like Amazing Graze, then "Orthodox-ize" the lyrics and label it American Chant.

That's interesting. Not something I ever saw, attending the Divine Liturgies etc. They were very Orthodox as far as doing traditional chants etc and liturgix infact that I think was one criticism of them, that some people can get very into the external aspects but not really develop the Phronema.


They had many home tendencies that one would find in the old documentary "Jesus Camp" just with an Orthodox exterior.
I'm familiar with that movie. I guess I can imagine some of those coming from a Pentecostal Charismatic background being that way. The EOC being made up of Campus Crusade for Christ people would be that way, it was a mixed bag of different denominations with their different styles etc. who felt themselves connected to each via doing campus evangelism.


I agree. At the very least they should have integrated them parish by parish. It also didn't help that Metropolitan Philip broke a few canons by ordaining all the priests on the same altar at the same church on the same day. It really didn't help that almost none of the ones who became priests had spent any actual time at an Orthodox seminary or that Fr Gillquist was an egotistical maniac (my stepmother's words reflecting on her time in Eagle River where Gillquist demanded a 20-foot high throne when he was an EOC "bishop").

That's sad to hear, I actually really benefited from "Becoming Orthodox" and a number of the other books that Concilliar Press put out.



I feel some of this could have been avoided if more of the clergy had been farmed out to other parishes. A few were. My old parish had their first deacon from Ben Lomond about a year before it all happened.
Yes I can see that, but what I suspect is maybe that there was some trouble brewing in private. I also benefitted from the story of ex-Vineyard pastor who converted, Bell I believe his name his story is in the link. Basically I was paranoid of the usual party line, so I wanted some one to talk to who had a background similar to mine. So I made a point to take him to lunch sometime during the Summer to bounce questions of. He was happy to do that, but he was a little worried when he realized I hadn't spoke to the regular priest of the area. But my paranoia pretty much demanded I find someone who had my background etc. to be a reliable witness so to speak.


O Lord, Establish This Vineyard · Journey To Orthodoxy
 
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DraculKain

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That's interesting. Not something I ever saw, attending the Divine Liturgies etc. They were very Orthodox as far as doing traditional chants etc and liturgix infact that I think was one criticism of them, that some people can get very into the external aspects but not really develop the Phronema.

You are correct. Many, many of my fellow parishioners were part of the Evangelical Orthodox movement back in the day. One thing I get from hearing the stories is they “creeped out” other Protestants, so to speak, by going full bore into Orthodox methods of worship even when not Orthodox. They definitely didn’t hold onto their Protestant traditions and such tightly after discovering liturgical worship.

I'm familiar with that movie. I guess I can imagine some of those coming from a Pentecostal Charismatic background being that way. The EOC being made up of Campus Crusade for Christ people would be that way, it was a mixed bag of different denominations with their different styles etc. who felt themselves connected to each via doing campus evangelism.

It may have been that way in the beginning (I haven’t met anyone who was there from the start) but it certainly wasn’t that way when parish friends attended before the conversion.

That's sad to hear, I actually really benefited from "Becoming Orthodox" and a number of the other books that Concilliar Press put out.

I wouldn’t just believe what the poster above said. Without trying to doxx myself I know Father Peter’s Son, Father Peter Jon, and those who knew Father Peter as an active priest and as a retired priest before his repose. He was not a proud man. He certainly was very gung ho about things such as evangelism and the Divine Liturgy being in the language of the people of the land. I’ve been blessed enough to read some pastoral help he wrote for others with his own hand as well. With all this information I call bull about the poster you responded to.
 
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ttcmacro

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I was not familiar with the Ben Lomond Crisis, but after reading this post, read a bit about it. The funny thing is that a couple of years ago while in Felton California, I stumbled upon the bookstore ran by St. Lawrence Orthodox Church (which apparently, was started by some of the dissenters of the parish in Ben Lomond). I talked with the people in there for a couple of hours, and they even took me to a tour of the Church. It was interesting when I asked them about their jurisdiction, they basically said they were under the JP, and at the time, I didn't realize any parishes in the U.S were under the J.P. Based on my reaction, they basically said that the arrangement was due to Church politics and left if at that. It does seem that the parish was doing well, running the bookstore and a school (which basically is a continuation of the school that was started at Ben Lomond it seems).
 
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Pavel Mosko

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You are correct. Many, many of my fellow parishioners were part of the Evangelical Orthodox movement back in the day. One thing I get from hearing the stories is they “creeped out” other Protestants, so to speak, by going full bore into Orthodox methods of worship even when not Orthodox. They definitely didn’t hold onto their Protestant traditions and such tightly after discovering liturgical worship.

There was another fascinating story of that sort of thing at the time when I first was a seeker that I will link to that sort of touches on this sort of thing. This Foursquare Pastor and his congregation was gradually led into Orthodoxy by seeking "Revival". Unfortunately, they re-edited the original story where it isn't as clear now. But basically on one Sunday, there were multiple "Words of Knowledge" through the week that highlighted the Jeremiah verse about "seeking the ancient paths" (to find rest of your souls) which I believe is possibly what this board is named for but that verse is not a common one as far as the radar of most Protestants.

Recovering the Ancient Paths · Journey To Orthodoxy


You are correct. Many, many of my fellow parishioners were part of the Evangelical Orthodox movement back in the day. One thing I get from hearing the stories is they “creeped out” other Protestants, so to speak, by going full bore into Orthodox methods of worship even when not Orthodox. They definitely didn’t hold onto their Protestant traditions and such tightly after discovering liturgical worship.



It may have been that way in the beginning (I haven’t met anyone who was there from the start) but it certainly wasn’t that way when parish friends attended before the conversion.



I wouldn’t just believe what the poster above said. Without trying to doxx myself I know Father Peter’s Son, Father Peter Jon, and those who knew Father Peter as an active priest and as a retired priest before his repose. He was not a proud man. He certainly was very gung ho about things such as evangelism and the Divine Liturgy being in the language of the people of the land. I’ve been blessed enough to read some pastoral help he wrote for others with his own hand as well. With all this information I call bull about the poster you responded to.


That's good to hear. I got favorable impressions from Quilquist in his writings and it seems like he was a decent guy when it came to being an editor and publisher. As as an example of that in publishing testimonies of converts he did want ones that were derogatory of their former background. So he seems very different to me than someone like Francis Shaeffer junior who from I've read seems bombastic (or at least use to be) etc, in his "Dancing Alone" books and presentations etc.
 
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