left behind

[GBTWC]

just wondering if anyone knows of any of the fathers wrote about "the rapture" in the same sense that the protestants view it, where people get let behind?

 

[GregConstantine]

No, they did not.

 

[Kristos]

just wondering if anyone knows of any of the fathers wrote about "the rapture" in the same sense that the protestants view it, where people get let behind?

I have never read anything along these lines in the ECFs - but that doesn't mean a lot. Secondary sources seem to claim that they did not discuss it. I have a friend who just wrote a Thesis on this topic, so I can check with him.

 

[SeventhValley]

Sort of but also no.

Here is a good article that explains it.

Many early Christian interpreters applied the earlier Jewish apocalyptic idea of a temporary Messianic kingdom to their interpretation of chapter 20 of John's apocalypse.[11] Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all made explicit references to the concept of a thousand year earthly kingdom at Christ’s coming.[12] These were all influenced by the Chiliasm which arose in Asia Minor early in the history of the Church. Tertullian in particular was convinced by the heresy of Montanism, a heresy which made millenarianism popular in Asia Minor, as it arose in Phrygia. Ironically, it would, in the end, be Montanism that would lead the Orthodox to decisively reject Chiliasm, as all of Christianity saw the followers of Montanus meet on the mountains of Phrygia robed in white, awaiting the descent of the New Jerusalem, only to be sorely disappointed. This took away the credibility of the movement and Chiliasm itself, and hence the Church in the East was reluctant to accept the Apocalypse of John,"-Premilennialism Wikipedia

 

[E.C.]

My understanding is that the "rapture" is based off of the daydream of a Protestant woman in the 19th century - i.e. MUCH later than the Church Fathers!

 

[SeventhValley]

It's more based off a uber literal reading of Apocalypse of John and Paul's letters where he talks about meeting in the air and mixing it with historical premilenialism. It was an accident that it gained wide acceptance due to it being included in the first widely read study bible.

 

[SeventhValley]

There is a disputed Syrian 8th century text that talks about a similar idea.

A people shall rise up from the desert, the offspring of Hagar, handmaid of Sarah, who hold to the covenant (qyama) of Abraham, the husband of Sarah and Hagar. They are awakened to come in the name of the Ram (dekra), the messenger (izgada) of the Son of Perdition. And there will be a sign in the sky as says our Lord in his Gospel (Matthew xxiv.30). . . . The plunderers (shabbaye) will spread over the earth, in the valleys and on mountain tops, and they will enslave women, children and men, old and young. . . . (much emotive description of killing, looting and enslavement ensues). . . . They open roads in the mountains and paths in the valleys. They will plunder to the ends of creation and take possession of the cities. Lands will be ravaged and corpses abound upon the earth. All peoples will be laid low before the plunderers. And just when the peoples had endured long on the earth and were hoping that now would come peace, they (the plunderers) will exact tribute and all will indeed fear them. Injustice will increase upon the earth and obscure the clouds. Wickedness will grow thick in creation and rise up to Heaven as smoke. (Ps.-Ephraem, Sermon on the End of Times, 61-62 [pp. 260-261])[2]

 

[SeventhValley]

The word rapture is from the Latin in Thessalonians "Being caught up".

 

[SeventhValley]

Authors generally maintain that the pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers Increase and Cotton Mather, and was then popularized in the 1830s by John Darby.[12][13] Others, including Grant Jeffrey, maintain that an earlier, 373 A.D. document called Ephraem or Pseudo-Ephraem already supported a pre-tribulation rapture.[14]
Regardless, pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[15] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[16]-Wikipedia on Rapture

 

[SeventhValley]

The early original Christian church,[39] as well as the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches,[40] the Anglican Communion and many Protestant Calvinist denominations, have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine. The Orthodox Church, for example, rejects it because the doctrine of the rapture depends on a millennial interpretation of prophetic scriptures, rather than an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.[41]-Rapture Wikipedia

 

[ArmyMatt]

Rapture meaning that some will be caught up in the heavens? yes. rapture in the sense that there is some pre trib half second coming of Christ that takes merely the Christians at that time? no.

 

[RileyG]

The early original Christian church,[39] as well as the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches,[40] the Anglican Communion and many Protestant Calvinist denominations, have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine. The Orthodox Church, for example, rejects it because the doctrine of the rapture depends on a millennial interpretation of prophetic scriptures, rather than an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.[41]-Rapture Wikipedia

Thank You for that answer!

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure what "the rapture" is anyway.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank You for that answer!

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure what "the rapture" is anyway.

that before the end times, the faithful will caught up into the clouds to be saved of the tribulation and the rise of the Antichrist.

 

[Anto9us]

I think Seventh Valley basically nailed the OP -- many of the Early Fathers were PREMILLENNIAL (Chiliast) but not PRETRIBULATIONAL

PreTrib Rapture -- meaning a TWO STAGE COMING of Christ's Return - was not in any way attributable to a "daydream" or "nitemare" or "vision" of the Scottish Girl Margaret Macdonald in 1830; John Nelson Darby did NOT "get the idea" from her vision -- the account of which in her own words can be read online and anyone who studies eschatology can readily see that the girl NEVER even approaches the concept of a PreTrib Rapture or Two Stage Coming in her VISION -- in which she mentions the Church GOING THRU a fiery trial of tribulation; not being raptured out of it ahead of time

the myth that Darby "got the idea" from the young girl was concocted by PostTrib fanaticist Dave MacPherson to discredit Darby and PreTrib

I never heard of the Mathers being credited with a PreTrib Rapture

Give Darby credit for it, as early as 1827 he had written of a PreTrib Rapture as we know it

To say Margaret Macdonald, Edward Irving, Manuel de la Cunza, or anyone else "invented" preTrib is simply erroneous

The fact that pretrib scholars Grant Jeffrey and Thomas Ice shared an excited phone call years ago when Jeffrey "discovered" the Pseudo-Ephraim account and made some preterist pay off on a bet by finding a reference to something like pretrib before 1800's -- well --

If it was THAT BIG A DEAL that a "find" like the Pseudo-Ephraim account was trumpeted by Jeffrey as proving something -- that just goes to show HOW RARE it was to find anything like PreTrib Rapture in early Church Fathers -- a lot were Premillennial, but not PRETRIB

iow many early fathers believed there would be a literal 1000 year reign; but not that Christians would be zapped away 7 years prior to the actual return of Christ which would initiate the 1000 years

PreTrib as we know it was Darby's idea - no one before him delineated all the elements which would be popularized in THE SCOFIELD REFERENCE BIBLE -- Hal Lindsay's THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH -- and then the fictional LEFT BEHIND series

Read Margaret Macdonald's "vision account' for yourself - it simply has NOTHING TO DO with a PreTrib Rapture

I was drawn to this Orthodox forum by another idea that impacts Eschatology -- and the DATING of the writing of the book of Revelation.

Preterists say Revelation was written BEFORE 70 AD -- the Orthodox have a very specific TRADITION concerning Antipas - Bishop of Pergamum (mentioned in Rev 2)

allegedly Antipas died in 92 AD - which if true blows out of the water the standard Preterist idea that Revelation itself was written prior to Jerusalem's fall

Catholic and Protestants HAVE NO SUCH TRADITION or mention of any historical data on Antipas of Pergamum -- only Orthodox

and even that info is scant

but if true makes Preterism fall to the ground by sheer dating (so they say)

 

[Anto9us]

Margaret MacDonald's Vision

The above link is to the account of Margaret's vision as published in an 1861 journal -- really 31 years after the vision was first utterred

Margaret Macdonald's Original Pretribulation Vision

This second link is to a supposed BLEND of the Norton 1861 version with Margaret's own handwritten account in 1830

You can read either account you want to -- there is NOTHING in either one about a PreTrib Rapture -- it is simply NOT THERE

The girl's vision seems to SPIRITUALIZE things anyway, and speaks of a "fiery trial" that the church has to go through.

I used to believe in a PreTrib Rapture - no longer convinced of it -- but I am still incensed how GLIBLY people refer to the alleged ORIGIN of the doctrine as coming from the young Scottish teenager -- they heard it somewhere, so they believe it as Gospel.

Friends, in accepting this "alleged origin" -- what you are really doing is buying into a fight between two different forms of PreMillennialism - both of which I would say would never be adhered to by the Orthodox Church anyway; imo

a fight between PostTrib and PreTrib - a fight led by the hoaxster Dave MacPherson; known hater of PreTrib -- known to refer to magazine articles with dates before the particular magazine existed!

Determined to try to prove through sheer amount of alleged minutiae ABOUT Margaret in sources OTHER THAN her own words; that the girl taught PreTrib when in fact anyone reading the vision account can see it is not PreTrib Rapture at all that she espoused.

So go ahead and poo-poo a PreTrib Rapture if you wish; on the grounds of it not being taught by Early Church Fathers if you wish -- just don't be so erroneous as to buy into the notion that Darby got the doctrine from the young girl's vision -- which clearly has nothing to do with a PreTrib Rapture

As a Protestant, I can say that among Protestants, if there is a doctrine one group doesnt like -- there are two main methods to besmirch the ORIGIN of the doctrine -- blame it on a wild charismatic utterance as if saying it came from a crazy person (as in Margaret's case)

or better than that - BLAME IT ON A JESUIT!! Yeah, say a Catholic started the doctrine!
That will scare anyone away from it!!

In eschatology, that has been done with Futurism in general as well as Preterism, and specifically PreTrib Futurism in a claim that de la Cunza wrote of a PreTrib Rapture - who wrote of some 45 day tribulation period using some weird math from the book of Daniel - its not Dispensational PreTrib at all and no way Darby's system could have come from de la Cunza

Can't convince anyone your doctrine is right and the opposing doctrine is wrong?

Well, then just SMEAR THE ORIGIN of the opposing doctrine - blame it on a fanatic or a Jesuit!

In reality, Darby's Dispensationalism and the PreTrib Rapture is simply an eschatology created from his interpretation of Bible passages -- same as any other eschatology, whether the historic premillennialsim of some of the early Church fathers, or the Amillennialism of Augustine which in essence triumphed over those early Chiliasts, or Preterism from Russell or any other eschatology from some end-of-the-world know-it-all

But back to Bishop Antipas of Pergamum actually being martyred in 92 AD -- if any Orthodox have any insight into this story/history/legend -- this would be a significant impact on the validity of Preterism; which makes the EARLY dating of the writing of Revelation (late 60's AD) a cornerstone of its doctrine.

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

I think when the Antichrist comes, people will think he is Christ because of this false doctrine and it is going to lead many people astray. The devil always seems to mock God in every single respect, so why wouldn't he have his own second coming?

 

[Lukaris]

Quoted from Auto9Us:

But back to Bishop Antipas of Pergamum actually being martyred in 92 AD -- if any Orthodox have any insight into this story/history/legend -- this would be a significant impact on the validity of Preterism; which makes the EARLY dating of the writing of Revelation (late 60's AD) a cornerstone of its doctrine.


I do not know if this would be helpful but see:

MYSTAGOGY: The Relics of Saint Antipas, the Martyr of Revelation 2:13


MYSTAGOGY: Saint Antipas: A Martyr of the Apocalypse

 

[Anto9us]

Thank you Lukaris -- extremely interesting.

The second link puts Antipas' bishopric during the reign of Nero, and is ambiguous about the DATE OF HIS MARTYRDOM -- saying "68 OR 92" A.D.

That doesn't sound definite enough to serve as a solid deciding factor about whether Revelation was written in 60's or 90's - during reign of Nero or later under Domitian - and I guess we absolutely cannot know for sure.

 

[RileyG]

that before the end times, the faithful will caught up into the clouds to be saved of the tribulation and the rise of the Antichrist.

Thank You for your response. I obviously do not agree with the Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant views on the book of Revelation. Like, at all.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank You for your response. I obviously do not agree with the Evangelical or Fundamentalist Protestant views on the book of Revelation. Like, at all.

indeed. escapism at its best. as if the early Christians became martyrs, but somehow those before the end get off scot free.