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LilyLamb
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Can I discuss this here without someone thinking I need to be calmed down or I'm being hostile??? 
I have tried to think of all the possible scenarios of Chang having a mark and being a believer but I cannot reconcile it with scripture that says that those who have the mark will come under God's wrath - and the scriptures say that we are not appointed unto wrath.
Can anyone help me understand this???
I have tried to think of all the possible scenarios of Chang having a mark and being a believer but I cannot reconcile it with scripture that says that those who have the mark will come under God's wrath - and the scriptures say that we are not appointed unto wrath.
Can anyone help me understand this???
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Reborn2000
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I agree with you, Lily, about the double mark. I have wondered about this myself, but am waiting until the next book to (hopefully) see how this story plays out. I think you had some valid questions and I guess Mr. Jenkins answered to the best of his ability without giving away the plot of the next book.
Kelly
Kelly
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Yes, you may discuss it here.
Personally I do not believe scripture supports a believer receiving the mark. Didn't read the last book so I don't know if Chang actually did or not, or if that is left hanging.
God marks us as His, I don't see how we can then take the mark of the beast.
Personally I do not believe scripture supports a believer receiving the mark. Didn't read the last book so I don't know if Chang actually did or not, or if that is left hanging.
God marks us as His, I don't see how we can then take the mark of the beast.
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carma
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Lily,
I know you mentioned something about him not being able to fake the mark of the believer, because he couldn't see it. IIRC, there WAS someone in one of the earlier books that did fake the mark of a believer.
Anyone remember that?
I know you mentioned something about him not being able to fake the mark of the believer, because he couldn't see it. IIRC, there WAS someone in one of the earlier books that did fake the mark of a believer.
Anyone remember that?
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Reborn2000
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Yeah, I do remember that. It was the kid at the airport wasn't it? With Ken?
Kelly
Kelly
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LilyLamb
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I remember that too - but if you read the link, you will see that Jenkins says that Chang IS a believer.
Mr. Jenkins says ...
So ... we shall see what happens - I don't know how he's gonna pull it off - but we shall see.
Mr. Jenkins says ...
Chang is a true believe and he does not worship the beast. Calm down and keep reading. We're not going to all of a sudden go apostate on you.
So ... we shall see what happens - I don't know how he's gonna pull it off - but we shall see.
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carma
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Well if he is a believer and if they have him actually receiving the mark, I don't know how they are going to pull it off, unless there is something there in scripture that I am not aware of, which is a possibility. I've read all of scripture several times, but I don't have it all memorized.
Like I have said to a few people, I don't see anyone making anybody take the mark, it would be, "You must take this" and when they refuse for any reason, "You lose your head!"
No forcing, no begging (except by loved ones), simply you do it with no fuss or you die.
Like I have said to a few people, I don't see anyone making anybody take the mark, it would be, "You must take this" and when they refuse for any reason, "You lose your head!"
No forcing, no begging (except by loved ones), simply you do it with no fuss or you die.
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LilyLamb
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One person brought up the possibility that Chang's mark isn't real - but Chang doesn't know that yet - they think that maybe someone like Hannah is there and that with him being the first recipient that it was easy to pull off a counterfeit mark.
Time will tell.
Time will tell.
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q8888
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I think that because it was forced on him without him consenting, he was ableto have both marks.
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Except by reading Scripture you aren't going to find anything about that differentiates between being forced or not. If you take the mark, you take the mark; force isn't an issue.
And my pesonal belief is they cannot both exist on the same person. It is not "just a mark."
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LilyLamb
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Actually in Revelation 13:16 it says - "The second beast also forced all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have a mark on their right hand or on their forehead."
So then if ALL will be FORCED to take the mark then Chang's situation isn't exclusive or special or different or acceptable - ALL will be FORCED by the second beast to have the mark.
And according to the very next chapter the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever - no exceptions.
So then if ALL will be FORCED to take the mark then Chang's situation isn't exclusive or special or different or acceptable - ALL will be FORCED by the second beast to have the mark.
And according to the very next chapter the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever - no exceptions.
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Yep, ALL will be forced. All being those that are not saved.
Those that are saved cannot take it or they will not survive.
All those that do not take it will die. Those marked by God cannot take the mark of the beast, they will die.
Except the 144,000, they are protected. Kind of makes that ALL something different than when we think.
Kind of falls into the:
Scripture says ALL israel shall be saved.
Further, it says that 1/3 of Israel shall be redeemed.
That's a contradiction unless the two are different.
#1: 1/3 of all the people with the blood of Jacob.
#2: All Israel = 1/3.
Just learned that.
I'll be bowing out of this discussion, LL, but I hope you find the answers you're looking for.
Those that are saved cannot take it or they will not survive.
All those that do not take it will die. Those marked by God cannot take the mark of the beast, they will die.
Except the 144,000, they are protected. Kind of makes that ALL something different than when we think.
Kind of falls into the:
Scripture says ALL israel shall be saved.
Further, it says that 1/3 of Israel shall be redeemed.
That's a contradiction unless the two are different.
#1: 1/3 of all the people with the blood of Jacob.
#2: All Israel = 1/3.
Just learned that.
I'll be bowing out of this discussion, LL, but I hope you find the answers you're looking for.
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carma
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Also remember, the 144K will not be 'around', they will be in hiding, supernaturally hidden, where they won't be found.
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Solomon Spade
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Hypothetical question:
Suppose that a believer was found unconsious by some of the Beast's follwers. Seeing that he doesn't have a BMO, and not knowing that he is a believer, they decide to give him the Mark. What would happen the the Christian if someone tried to give him the Mark when he wasn't able to resist?
Suppose that a believer was found unconsious by some of the Beast's follwers. Seeing that he doesn't have a BMO, and not knowing that he is a believer, they decide to give him the Mark. What would happen the the Christian if someone tried to give him the Mark when he wasn't able to resist?
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LilyLamb
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To me this, and other hypothetical questions like it, says that God is outta control and unable to protect His children. I've heard this argument time and again but it doesn't add up when you look at the "character" of God. I believe He is our hiding place and we need not fear being gathered up into some kind of concentration camp and being injected with a mark while we are unconscious.
However, for the sake of argument - IF, and that's a mighty big IF this were to occur then I would have to believe that God sees the heart and will judge accordingly.
Alas - Chang was not unconscious though, so it's a moot point for his situation.
My DD's are 22 and 17 and there is no way on God's green earth they would allow someone to place a mark on them - they're not strong enough to "resist" but by golly they wouldn't hide behind a fear of "needles" and would let the folks know that they are believers and not about to pledge allegiance to the beast as their allegiance already belongs to the Lamb.
However, for the sake of argument - IF, and that's a mighty big IF this were to occur then I would have to believe that God sees the heart and will judge accordingly.
Alas - Chang was not unconscious though, so it's a moot point for his situation.
My DD's are 22 and 17 and there is no way on God's green earth they would allow someone to place a mark on them - they're not strong enough to "resist" but by golly they wouldn't hide behind a fear of "needles" and would let the folks know that they are believers and not about to pledge allegiance to the beast as their allegiance already belongs to the Lamb.
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LilyLamb
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The Left Behind author's thread is now at page three and "flaming" Lots of interesting points have been made, but it looks like nothing will truly be resolved until the next book comes out ... I do like what Rayford4eva said on page three
Just keeping this thread alive
Lots of interesting points have been made, but it looks like nothing will truly be resolved until the next book comes out ... I do like what Rayford4eva said on page three Just keeping this thread alive
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I'm amazed that there is even an issue over this. I sincerely hope people haven't taken the Left Behind series to be totally theologically sound. After all, it's only a fiction based on as much biblical fact as possible, but it's still fiction, and prone to human error.
I do urge to take a step back and not consider the Left Behind series as 'canon' to the end times. To do so would make it very hard for one to change their mind if the scenario we read in the series is nothing at all what does happen when we actually go through it.
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I do urge to take a step back and not consider the Left Behind series as 'canon' to the end times. To do so would make it very hard for one to change their mind if the scenario we read in the series is nothing at all what does happen when we actually go through it.
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