Leaving off the eschatology we see some great Christian Truths in John's Revelation.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Here we see that the 'saints in heaven' are aware of time and attending things going on here on Earth.

They are told what the wait is about, and are encouraged to rest.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are waiting on more Christians being killed. Are you dying for Christ?

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Alleluia!

Forgive me...

 

[The Times]

Here we see that the 'saints in heaven' are aware of time and attending things going on here on Earth.

They are told what the wait is about, and are encouraged to rest.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are waiting on more Christians being killed. Are you dying for Christ?

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Alleluia!

Forgive me...

The motto for all true and faithful Christians is to....

"Die for your Lord"

 

[Adstar]

This is talking about the times Just before the retun of Jesus when many followers of jesus will be being killed for their belief in Him.. God has a number in mind.. What that number is only He knows.. When the crop is ripe then he shall return and gather in fruit..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"For the love of Christ constraineth us, because we thus judge that, if One died on behalf of all, then all died, and He died for all that we should no longer live unto ourselves, but unto Him who died and rose again from the dead, even our Lord Jesus Christ."

Forgive me...

 

[Aseyesee]

Here we see that the 'saints in heaven' are aware of time and attending things going on here on Earth.

They are told what the wait is about, and are encouraged to rest.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are waiting on more Christians being killed. Are you dying for Christ?

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Alleluia!

Forgive me...

I find the entering into the gates of the city a particularly alluring truth ...

 

[The Times]

This is talking about the times Just before the retun of Jesus when many followers of jesus will be being killed for their belief in Him.. God has a number in mind.. What that number is only He knows.. When the crop is ripe then he shall return and gather in fruit..

World Wide Calvary of the symbolic two witnesses, who are the members of the global Church of Christ, who minister the gospel to a rebellious generation.

The last good wine of the harvest, the last good wine for the wedding of the Bridegroom, when he entereth to meet his battered and bloodied Bride.The End of the Harvest and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, declaring "Time no longer".

The Church and the body that bleeds the most for Jesus will be the victors and the true and faithful followers of the King of kings Jesus Christ.

The Lord can only prepare us for what fate awaits us. Let the burden rest on his shoulders and our faith and trust in him only.

 

[Dave G.]

World Wide Calvary of the symbolic two witnesses, who are the members of the global Church of Christ, who minister the gospel to a rebellious generation.

The last good wine of the harvest, the last good wine for the wedding of the Bridegroom, when he entereth to meet his battered and bloodied Bride.The End of the Harvest and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, declaring "Time no longer".

The Church and the body that bleeds the most for Jesus will be the victors and the true and faithful followers of the King of kings Jesus Christ.

The Lord can only prepare us for what fate awaits us. Let the burden rest on his shoulders and our faith and trust in him only.

Could you explain why you think the two witnesses are symbolic vs a real manifestation ?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Could you explain why you think the two witnesses are symbolic vs a real manifestation ?

Let's not get moved to eschatology please.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave-W]

Could you explain why you think the two witnesses are symbolic vs a real manifestation ?

That takes the discussion into eschatology; which the OP has requested it not go.

That said, it is helpful to remember that ALL ancient Hebrew texts (Aramaic and Arabic also) have multiple levels of meaning and understanding - all true. (even if they seem to be in conflict with each other) Even though the NT came down to us in Greek (which does NOT support the levels per se) almost all of it was written by native Hebrew and/or Aramaic speakers which means often the levels are there anyway, especially in prophetic literature like Revelation.

As to "dying for Christ" as the OP has asked, there are a thousand ways we can die to our own self-interest for Christ every day. If one is in the habit of doing that, physical death is just the next step - one that HE will give a special grace for AT THE TIME it is needed.

 

[Dave G.]

That takes the discussion into eschatology; which the OP has requested it not go.

Ya that's what he said. But it's pretty hard to talk about the book of Revelation and not touch on it or brush up against it. With that in mind I think I'll look for another thread to be involved in so I don't run afoul here LOL ! Or at least sit back and just observe.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Here we see that the 'saints in heaven' are aware of time and attending things going on here on Earth.

They are told what the wait is about, and are encouraged to rest.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are waiting on more Christians being killed. Are you dying for Christ?

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Alleluia!

Forgive me...

Asking for their murderers to be punished doesn't sound very forgiving of them. Shouldn't they instead pray to God to forgive those who killed them?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Asking for their murderers to be punished doesn't sound very forgiving of them. Shouldn't they instead pray to God to forgive those who killed them?

I couldn't possibly say what they should be doing. I have to approach it as a fact. I think it would be good for us to remember what comes next. That is to say, mercy is for this life. Eternal things don't change.

Forgive me...

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I couldn't possibly say what they should be doing. I have to approach it as a fact. I think it would be good for us to remember what comes next. That is to say, mercy is for this life. Eternal things don't change.

Forgive me...

Reconciliationists would disagree with that claim. But even if eternal things don't change, it doesn't sound very merciful for saints to desire punishment for those who murdered them. At the very least, they should be telling God that His will be done, not request that the punishment of their wrongdoers take place sooner.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Asking for their murderers to be punished doesn't sound very forgiving of them. Shouldn't they instead pray to God to forgive those who killed them?

Those souls prayers would have been given up before death. Those who destroyed them would have been from anti-christ and opposed to the Holy Spirit. They would have been commanded not to pray for those opposing the Holy Spirit.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Reconciliationists would disagree with that claim. But even if eternal things don't change, it doesn't sound very merciful for saints to desire punishment for those who murdered them. At the very least, they should be telling God that His will be done, not request that the punishment of their wrongdoers take place sooner.

These saints have not yet been Resurrected and are therefore still burdened with all their human faults. If they, while still imperfect, seek justice rather than mercy, they are no less tolerant or loving than the rest of us. Or one could simply take their cries for revenge as metaphor.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Reconciliationists would disagree with that claim. But even if eternal things don't change, it doesn't sound very merciful for saints to desire punishment for those who murdered them. At the very least, they should be telling God that His will be done, not request that the punishment of their wrongdoers take place sooner.

I do not judge those whom the Lord has place under HIS Altar. Simple as that. Perhaps that means we have to adjust what we think is "right". I understand the kingdom of heaven is very strict on everything being right.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

These saints have not yet been Resurrected and are therefore still burdened with all their human faults. If they, while still imperfect, seek justice rather than mercy, they are no less tolerant or loving than the rest of us. Or one could simply take their cries for revenge as metaphor.

We don't deny that justice is what comes next. Do we?

Forgive me...

 

[grasping the after wind]

We don't deny that justice is what comes next. Do we?

Forgive me...

God is just is He not?

 

[The Times]

God's mercy has been literally poured out in the blood of the body of Christ, for the last 2000 and counting. If mercy continues in a rebellious world, then it no longer is mercy, on the contrary for it is conveying a message of defeat to the enemies of the cross. That is why the justice arm of God is long overdue upon the wicked who have come to full. The fullness of the wicked could only mean one thing and that is a coming scourge like no other, upon all the wicked who have foresaken the covenant of his only begotten Son Jesus Christ and have replaced the truth with falsehood and have served the lie, in order to conform to the trending ways of the world.

Paul informs us that this is the generation that falls away from the faith, a generation that has an outward godliness appeal, yet denies the times and moral laws of God altogether, a generation that SEEKS THE SELF, as if to say, that those living in the temple of God are gods themselves, by enforcing upon the good the trending ways of the world.

If we change with the world, then we die eternally, yet if we die to the world then we will live eternally with Jesus Christ in his Father's house. The line in the sand is drawn and brother is pegged against brother, sister against sister and the sword of separation will be ever present in the times we are living in right now.

These are the martyrs crying under the altar of God "How long Oh Lord will you not judge the inhabitants of Earth". How many more saints need to bleed for the mercy of God to be prolonged is the better question?

 

[mark kennedy]

Here we see that the 'saints in heaven' are aware of time and attending things going on here on Earth.

They are told what the wait is about, and are encouraged to rest.

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They are waiting on more Christians being killed. Are you dying for Christ?

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Alleluia!

Forgive me...

And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were rolls of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:4-5)​

Strangely uncommon to gain that insight, we talk about the tribulation but not so much about the reasons for it. The fifth seal and the seventh involve the prayers of the saints, like the prophets the Christian witness does not avenge itself, but leaves room for divine retribution. The Devil thinks once your dead that's the end of it, he is wrong, there is such a thing as divine retribution.

What happens after this:

And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. (Rev. 8:6)
​

Something to think about.

Grace and peace,
Mark