Leaving Church, Looking for Input Outside of People I Know

[EnriqueNye]

There's always two sides to the story. But you have come across as very forthright and open to me. So, if what you are telling us is a true and fair account of what is going on, I feeling the pastors have handled your situation very poorly and you have every reason to be upset by how they've treated you. Ultimately leaving or staying is up to you. All I'll say is to follow your heart and don't let them manipulate you.

btw, for whatever it is worth, I am a senior pastor myself.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Norbert L]

No everything was consensual and mutual and legal age wise, I wanted it to go that was so I steered it that way and she would be ok with it, often preferring it.

Life is not easy. You should ask yourself what's stopping you from getting married and work on that. 1 Corinthians 7:9

 

[Redwingfan9]

This church sounds a wee bit cultish. Unless there is evidence that you're assaulting these girls, there's nothing you've said that isn't par for the course for single Christians. Their reaction suggests an unbiblical view of sex and lust.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe we are living in the last days. So finding those group of believers who truly want to follow Jesus is slim at best. That is why you had the altercation that you did. They should have employed 1 John 5:16-17 to your life but they didn't. Meaning, they should have prayed for victory over this sin of yours while you were confessing and forsaking it to the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13). They should have tried to help you instead of throwing stones immediately at you. Your reaction to their unfair treatment of you? Do not hate them, but love them and pray for them. But move on from out of their lives. Move far away from them and have nothing more to do with them but to pray for them and to wish them only good things to them in Christ Jesus. Pray to find those body of believers who truly are interested in living for the Lord. There may not be any camping trips, etc., and it may just be hanging with a group of believers at a coffee house or in each other's homes, but find those true brothers and sisters who truly are serious in following the Lord and in living for Him. They are out there. Don't give up on looking for them and in asking God to find them.

 

[AlexDTX]

I am posting on here because recent events at my church have led me to decide on leaving and finding a new church family. It is something very controversial to me that I would like input on. I guess I will just give you the whole story.

Enrique,

First of all, it is apparent that you are a teen age boy. At your age, your hormones are raging. When I was your age I would get aroused simply walking down the school hallways and glancing at a pretty girl. I was not lusting by imagining sex with the girl. I simply glanced at her. I had to wear very baggy pants all the time for that reason. And for the girl that got mad at you for resisting her flirtations, of course you would get excited, so you made the right decision. Be encouraged. The consequences of her gossip is the result of righteousness on your part.

Second of all, when Jesus said in the Beattitudes that if you look upon a woman with lust in your heart you are committing adultery, he was not tightening the bolts of the law by adding a new commandment. He made the point that the law could not stop sin because we are sin. All men struggle with lust in the heart. As Maria said, you have to control your thought life.

Thirdly, the response of the junior pastor and senior pastor was non biblical, non spiritual, and contrary to due process. When you confess your struggle with lust in the heart, you had done no wrong. Your confession was for strength of resolve to put such thoughts out of your heart. To treat you as someone who had wronged them showed a lack of spiritual maturity on both the Jr and Sr pastors' parts. If every man in the congregation confessed their lust to the two of them, they would have had no congregation left.

If a biblical response was done, you should have gone to the girl that gossiped behind your back and slandered you seeking repentance from her for reconciliation. If she refused, then you should have gone back to her with the Jr. pastor for her repentance. If refused then you, the pastor and sr pastor should go. She did the wrong in gossiping and slandering you. If unrepentant, then she should have been expelled from the congregation.

I would not suggest leaving the church right away. Since your 2 sisters had problems and left, you and your parents should schedule a meeting with the sr pastor, and let them know how badly they handled your situation in a spirit of meekness. Of course, they will deny it and expel your family from the congregation, but at least, you will have talked to them and gave them opportunity to admit their mistake.

 

[EnriqueNye]

Life is not easy. You should ask yourself what's stopping you from getting married and work on that. 1 Corinthians 7:9

I want to get married, but I want to not lust after her first.

 

[Albion]

For myself, I don't feel that you need to defend yourself to us.

If your account of things is correct, you need a new church, that's all. The present one, and especially the ministers, have not performed as they ought and it appears that their response to you is 'standard operating procedure' for them.

So, find a church that does minister to its people and you will grow in grace as a disciple of the Lord rather than going on being distracted by this mixture of self-doubt, resentment, and confusion you are carrying around and will continue to carry around if you stay where you are hoping things will improve.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Hey,

I am posting on here because recent events at my church have led me to decide on leaving and finding a new church family. It is something very controversial to me that I would like input on. I guess I will just give you the whole story.

I have been at the church I am currently at for my entire life. My parents joined it right after it started, and I was born like 10 years later. Fast forward to today, I am still attending, I am saved, and I am living on an old school campus that my church bought and rents out to people who attend. It is an entire floor of single guys.

This past year I have seen sin manifest itself in my life, specifically lust. I am not like actively lusting after every woman I see with burning desire, I would view every woman that I would begin to have a relationship with as a sexual object and it was hurting us both a lot, and I did not like what it was doing to either of us. Obviously this is an embarrassing thing to talk about, so I kept it to myself for a while, but one time after a date that almost went crazy, (you could argue it did go a bit crazy) I said I need God to change me, and I think my pastor will help.

One of my pastors actually lives below me, so I went and saw him. I explained the situation, and I how I wanted to work on this area of my life and he was not having it. He said you are forgiven, but just like with David and Bathsheba, God will not let the sword leave your house. And he said that he did not trust me anymore, that it would take a while to regain his trust. He said he would meet with me regularly for counselling and accountability, which we did the next day. There he informed me that it was his duty to bring this to the senior pastor, which I was kinda confused, because why not just keep this confidential? I expressed a genuine desire for change and I had not hurt anyone at the church from sexual objectifying them.

I was supposed to go to my church's youth retreat that day to serve, but I got a call from him legit an hour before I was going to head out that he had spoken to the senior pastor and that I was barred from going due to what I did. He did not say why, and I was kinda mad.

I had to bring all my camping stuff back home and my mom was all like ???. so I had to explain to her what happened and she was not having it. Both my sisters have had falling outs with the senior pastor and both no longer attend. I would argue one is still a Christian, but does not go to church, the other now hates Christianity because of what happened to her. My mom and dad ended up calling my senior pastor (against my wishes) for 3 hours about this, and my mom even threatened to quit her job at the church. I guess she is just mad to see all her kids have bad experiences with them Idk.

Right after their call, I got an email from my senior pastor explaining that I have proved myself so dishonorable among women, and that he does not want me around any of the girls at the youth retreat. I was really angry, I felt like I was being treated like a pedophile just for admitting that I have a problem with objectifying women who I date. I sent him back a lengthy email explaining why I thought barring me for that reason was an overreaction, and how I wished the convo between me and the other pastor had stayed confidential.

We end up meeting, all three of us, me, the pastor I went to, and the senior pastor, and we had a long heated meeting. I will admit, I went into that meeting pretty heated. The majority of it was just them trying to pull out more details of the specifics of the last date I went on. I did not think this at the time, but now I am just like "Why do you need more details of that? I already came to you for help with a repentive heart." And I did not want to tell them, because again, it is embarrassing to talk about this. They accused me of lying and hiding information from them because I did not want to tell them.

He ended up starting the meeting with saying I was getting kicked out of the Church campus living thing. He changed his mind when I agreed with him on the fact that lust starts earlier then you think in a dating relationship. I dont know why he was basing it off that. He said I was on probation for the rest of the summer, and I had to meet with the other pastor regularly.

The next two months I made HUGE progress. I am closer to Christ then I have ever been in my life. and I would say my lust is 40% of what it was, which is huge to me. The pastor I met with thought the same. Our last meeting, he recommended that I stay on campus to our senior pastor.

Then like two weeks later it fell apart. There was a girl that I hung out with a lot in the spring of this year. She really liked to flirt especially sexually. I still had her as a contact in my phone and we started flirting one day. It was going to go further, but I stopped myself, and blocked her off my phone. Because I blocked her, she got mad, and told a friend who told a friend, who told a friend, who told someone who goes to my church, who told a pastor and on and on. I got a call from my pastor saying "whats this I am hearing?" and I was upfront and honest with him. I said I did not think to bring it up to him because at the time, while I was ashamed and sorry that it happened, the fact that it normally would have gone further with her, and that I stopped it in the heat of the moment was a huge win for me. Keep in mind this happened a few weeks before it got to him.

He said he had to bring this to the senior pastor who said that I am out. We then met later that night for an hour and a half, where they tried to convince me that I had broken the probation, and that what I did, was in no means a win, and if anything a less of a loss. I did not and do not agree with that, and they tried to change my mind during that whole time. They said that because I did not agree with them, I was clearly not repenting or showing any desire to change.

We left that meeting with no progress made. We met again a few days later with my parents present. It was the same thing, just them trying to change my mind, and since I do not agree with them, I am not repenting or broken from what I did. Like I repented and felt bad at the time, but I did not sin to you! So how am I supposed to show that other then say that I did it? My dad did not say a word throughout the entire meeting, and when my mom tried to say something, the senior pastor shut her our and said, your time will come. They tried changing my mind for an hour and then sent me out of the room for two hours where they talked about I dont know what.

My parents wont speak about it, and neither will any of the three pastors. It is common for this kind of thing. I do not even know what really happened with my sisters. My mom is still considering leaving her job and wants to visit other churches.

I am honestly done with them at this point. I came to one of them for help and a genuine desire for change, and I got punished for it. I understand how you should be removed from leadership if your life is not in order, but I am not in leadership. This whole situation has distracted me from what I am really trying to focus on, and stresses me out to have to put on a show for them. Recently they have been acting like they caught me in the act of adultery or something, and I am refusing to admit it, and its like "No, I came to you for help, and you are just rebuking me."

I am moving out Oct 15th. I'm still attending church until then, but after that I am going to be actively looking, unless someone on here changes my mind. FYI I have been very transparent about this. I am giving you their genuine logic on this. Everyone I have talked to at my church has agreed that it is my duty to leave after this and all that, but a couple of them have been genuinely concerned and gone to my senior pastor and asked about it. I don't know what he tells them, but I'm sure if they disagreed with him, they would be in the same boat as me. Lot of people feel that way about my senior pastor, not being allowed to have their own opinion and what not.

But yeah, I really enjoy the community of brothers I am with, I really do not want to leave my church but this is kind of the knock out punch at the end of a stream of other stuff in the past. I am kind of excited to see where God takes me, I kind of feel like it is what he wants me to do. If you can change my mind about leaving, go for it, if not feel free to support my reasoning on leaving.

Thanks

Thank you for your honesty. No pastor or believer or parent has a right to know what you are thinking or that trust is based upon knowing anothers thoughts. Once anyone starts to control how another thinks things have gone very wrong.

In Jesus we explore our feelings, and are honest about them, and bring them to Jesus to bring balance and resolution. Some have no real issues or feeling of attraction, while others burn unbelievably. Learning how to express love and care, and be cared for is part of maturity in Jesus.

Any pastor who thinking they know what is going on in their church is sadly mistaken. It is not theirs to know, only when sin is exposed, actually sinful active relationships, the people need to be counselled, and if they resist, excluded.

There is a massive difference between attraction and need, and adultery or fornication. One is a realisation of who we are, the other is letting desire dominate ones life over love and commitment. There will always be more attractive people, better situations one could jump into, except one would sacrifice the best situation of all, walking with Jesus and learning faithfulness and perseverance.

Two leaders in my church under a pastor who repressed emotion and did not know what being open and honest was, had affairs, broke their marriages and ended up with new partners. So this subject is serious if not dealt with properly, personally and with humbleness and a repentant heart. Being loved and to love is one of the hardest things we can ever do. But hang in there young man, and the Lord will teach you well. God bless you

 

[tampasteve]

Leave. The way those pastors are acting is not appropriate. You came with a genuine desire to change and repent - they have no right to hold this over you the way they are doing. They are acting as if they have not struggled with similar issues, which I can assure you they have - because all men do at some point. They should be counseling and helping you, not baring you from events and castigating you.

Find a church that loves and supports you, not demonizes your actions. Reconciliation or confession should be in a spirit of forgiveness, not shunning. Feel encouraged to post in "Looking for a Church" forum with your theological leanings and people can possibly assist you there.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I want to get married, but I want to not lust after her first.

My counsel is simple. You need to be friends and to love her for who she is even if she walked away.

The problem of youth is the emotions are so strong but some relationships are built on personal need and projection, not on seeing each other.

I knew lots of girls, who I could have got involved with, until I actually fell in love. When I fell in love it changed me and the Lord helped me grow in how I express love and how I am committed to others. I was a deeply wounded unloved individual who could not trust. The Lord brought the right damaged young woman into my life, that we could both grow and love and build a family together.

Going from I am attracted to this young woman, to having a depressed suicidal pregnant mother, without family or friends as support was a difficult situation to walk into. Without the depth of the bond we had, that pressure could have broken us.
29 years on, we have 3 kids, a loving family and supportive situation. But the foundations need to be right, and this takes self discovery and honesty on both sides, especially before the Lord. God bless you

 

[EnriqueNye]

I believe we are living in the last days. So finding those group of believers who truly want to follow Jesus is slim at best. That is why you had the altercation that you did. They should have employed 1 John 5:16-17 to your life but they didn't. Meaning, they should have prayed for victory over this sin of yours while you were confessing and forsaking it to the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13). They should have tried to help you instead of throwing stones immediately at you. Your reaction to their unfair treatment of you? Do not hate them, but love them and pray for them. But move on from out of their lives. Move far away from them and have nothing more to do with them but to pray for them and to wish them only good things to them in Christ Jesus. Pray to find those body of believers who truly are interested in living for the Lord. There may not be any camping trips, etc., and it may just be hanging with a group of believers at a coffee house or in each other's homes, but find those true brothers and sisters who truly are serious in following the Lord and in living for Him. They are out there. Don't give up on looking for them and in asking God to find them.

Thank you

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you

You are most welcome, brother.

 

[Albion]

Enrique, it looks to me like you are now beginning to collect quite a range of advice, some of it not very sound IMHO. So where do you stand at this point? Is seeking out a better church in prospect for you?

Or are you leaning some other way?

And are there some other, related, questions you need to ask now?

 

[EnriqueNye]

Enrique, it looks to me like you are now beginning to collect quite a range of advice, some of it not very sound IMHO. So where do you stand at this point? Is seeking out a better church in prospect for you?

Or are you leaning some other way?

And are there some other, related, questions you need to ask now?

I am not sure, there’s is plenty of reason for me to stay as to leave, my church has great outreach programs, they have planted a dozen other churches since they have started, and I do not want to leave all the friends and community I have, although I know all Christians are all brothers and sisters to one another. I’ve done so much for and with this church, it would be a dividing moment in my life, although I know whatever God has in store for me will be amazing and I shake with excitement just thinking about it.

At the same time, I get no spiritual growth from my church anyway besides fellowship with people that are not pastors. My church does not preach sermons on practical life sin topics. It’s always how such and such verse in the Old Testament points to Jesus or if it’s in the New Testament the theme of the sermon will be something like “We as men of Christ should build up the church by walking in faith” and I’ll leave church thinking “Geeze thatll get me through the week. I’m not trying to say I deserve what I want or anything, but most of my spiritual growth is in my own study and listening to sermons online.

It’s kind of like leaving an abusive relationship, I know saying that makes it sound like I should leave, but the history I have with these people is just so big. I’m giving it a lot of thought and prayer. I am still attending my church until I move out of the church campus housing out of respect, so I will probably decide once and for all then whether to stay or leave. But right now I’m at an 80% leaving.

 

[Strong in Him]

Hey,

I am posting on here because recent events at my church have led me to decide on leaving and finding a new church family. It is something very controversial to me that I would like input on. I guess I will just give you the whole story.
.....................................

I am honestly done with them at this point. I came to one of them for help and a genuine desire for change, and I got punished for it. I understand how you should be removed from leadership if your life is not in order, but I am not in leadership. This whole situation has distracted me from what I am really trying to focus on, and stresses me out to have to put on a show for them. Recently they have been acting like they caught me in the act of adultery or something, and I am refusing to admit it, and its like "No, I came to you for help, and you are just rebuking me."

Hi,
I don't want to vote in the poll because I don't want to tell you what to do. But I have highlighted two sentences in your post in which, I would say, you have answered your own question.

If relationships between you and one, or more, of the pastors have broken down, if one of them refused to respect your confidentiality, if they are over reacting and are turning a pastoral matter into a huge safeguarding issue, don't understand that you wanted help and support not a rebuke and refuse to listen to you - not to mention the fact that they treated your sisters like this too, causing one of them to give up on church; why stay?

 

[EnriqueNye]

Hi,
I don't want to vote in the poll because I don't want to tell you what to do. But I have highlighted two sentences in your post in which, I would say, you have answered your own question.

If relationships between you and one, or more, of the pastors have broken down, if one of them refused to respect your confidentiality, if they are over reacting and are turning a pastoral matter into a huge safeguarding issue, don't understand that you wanted help and support not a rebuke and refuse to listen to you - not to mention the fact that they treated your sisters like this too, causing one of them to give up on church; why stay?

I guess I am just so used to it being this way that I think it is normal

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not sure, there’s is plenty of reason for me to stay as to leave, my church has great outreach programs, they have planted a dozen other churches since they have started, and I do not want to leave all the friends and community I have, although I know all Christians are all brothers and sisters to one another. I’ve done so much for and with this church, it would be a dividing moment in my life, although I know whatever God has in store for me will be amazing and I shake with excitement just thinking about it.

At the same time, I get no spiritual growth from my church anyway besides fellowship with people that are not pastors. My church does not preach sermons on practical life sin topics. It’s always how such and such verse in the Old Testament points to Jesus or if it’s in the New Testament the theme of the sermon will be something like “We as men of Christ should build up the church by walking in faith” and I’ll leave church thinking “Geeze thatll get me through the week. I’m not trying to say I deserve what I want or anything, but most of my spiritual growth is in my own study and listening to sermons online.

It’s kind of like leaving an abusive relationship, I know saying that makes it sound like I should leave, but the history I have with these people is just so big. I’m giving it a lot of thought and prayer. I am still attending my church until I move out of the church campus housing out of respect, so I will probably decide once and for all then whether to stay or leave. But right now I’m at an 80% leaving.

If you don't have phone numbers and emails, etc. of your favorite contacts to fellowship with (from your church), then I would I get their contact information and get together with them on your own time. This way you are not really leaving your friends but you are leaving the leadership. If some of them do not want to fellowship over the Bible outside of church, then that means that they were never really the kind of friend that is ready to be a part of your life in growing in Christ for real. Granted, there are exceptions because some people need to grow or they go through life challenges. But your friends right now who are your true friends in the Lord will still want to stay in touch with you if you leave.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you this fine day that He has made.

 

[Albion]

I am not sure, there’s is plenty of reason for me to stay as to leave, my church has great outreach programs, they have planted a dozen other churches since they have started, and I do not want to leave all the friends and community I have, although I know all Christians are all brothers and sisters to one another. I’ve done so much for and with this church, it would be a dividing moment in my life, although I know whatever God has in store for me will be amazing and I shake with excitement just thinking about it.

At the same time, I get no spiritual growth from my church anyway besides fellowship with people that are not pastors. My church does not preach sermons on practical life sin topics. It’s always how such and such verse in the Old Testament points to Jesus or if it’s in the New Testament the theme of the sermon will be something like “We as men of Christ should build up the church by walking in faith” and I’ll leave church thinking “Geeze thatll get me through the week. I’m not trying to say I deserve what I want or anything, but most of my spiritual growth is in my own study and listening to sermons online.

It’s kind of like leaving an abusive relationship, I know saying that makes it sound like I should leave, but the history I have with these people is just so big. I’m giving it a lot of thought and prayer.

I am still attending my church until I move out of the church campus housing out of respect, so I will probably decide once and for all then whether to stay or leave. But right now I’m at an 80% leaving.

Thanks. I can appreciate all that you wrote there.

If I try to put myself into your position, I see the balance of pro vs. con very much as you say you have judged it yourself.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I guess I am just so used to it being this way that I think it is normal

If that's the case it's going to take awhile to recover from all of this. You need to get into a decent church and perhaps seek out therapy. Your statement reminds me of a lot of the Recovering Grace folks who escaped and exposed Gothard's cult. A lot of them were used to things being the way they were even though when they looked around they knew it was wrong. It takes prayer and inner strength (given by God) to escape from these abusive church situations.

 

[EnriqueNye]

If that's the case it's going to take awhile to recover from all of this. You need to get into a decent church and perhaps seek out therapy. Your statement reminds me of a lot of the Recovering Grace folks who escaped and exposed Gothard's cult. A lot of them were used to things being the way they were even though when they looked around they knew it was wrong. It takes prayer and inner strength (given by God) to escape from these abusive church situations.

My younger older sister went through a few years of therapy after it