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Leave the Law = To Exist In Grace.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Eilat, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. Eilat

    Eilat Member

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    Saint,
    you dont have a sin nature....as the REAL You, is Born again.
    The real you is the born again, into God's Spirit, as "One with God and Christ".
    That is the REAL YOU, and not that body that is on this earth.

    So, what you have, if you are sinning and confessing = is a dead man issue, that Paul said is crucified with Christ.
    And that Dead man.....has been separated from the "new Creation", by Spiritual Circumcision.
    (Colossians 2).
    So, that NEW Man, the BORN AGAIN.... is the ONLY MAN, that God ever sees, once you are born again into : "ONE with God and Christ".

    So, what about that flesh?

    Ok, let me show how you get this.....>"Jesus always gives me the Victory", as your discipleship.
    See that?
    That is Paul talking about existing in the Right mind, walking in the Spirit or.... ""as many as are perfected".
    Paul teaches this After all that stuff about....>"""'that which i would do, i dont do, and that which i dont want to do, i do""".
    Remember that part? As that is all you ever hear from Legalist Pastors and Popes and Ministers.
    They always STOP at the part where Paul talks about being a Discipleship Failure.

    But if you KEEP READING.......Paul eventually explains that He came to understand how to exist in : = "Jesus ALWAYS gives me the Victory".
    And here is a KEY., as its Jesus who gives this Grace that we are to EXIT within... as this is: "walking in the Spirit".
    Now, you dont get this by prayer, you get this by BELIEVING correctly and existing IN the Grace of God, at all times, in your MIND as its in your Mind of Faith where all the power of Christ, is LOST or found.
    Its all about believing correctly, or not.
    See, everything with God is Faith//Believing based, and Spirit based, and never self effort based.

    Listen...
    All that God gives us is a GIFT....>Never is it earned or kept.
    When Jesus says..>"apart from me you can do NOTHING"......is not a myth.
    As its being apart from HIM, is why Christians fail and struggle with lust, and sin and confess.
    Its because they are APART from Him... and in their own power the Law's power of dominion to cause you to sin more, wins every time.
    And to be IN THERE is to be found trying to do right, and trying to be good....and trying not to sin.
    See.....all That is how you separate yourself INTO your own Striving and self effort which disconnects you from God's Grace...and its God's Grace which IS the DELIVERANCE.
    See that Reader?
    It like this..... when we are trying our best to be.....we always fail to be......but when we exist as we are, in our believing, then God's Grace empowers us to have the Victory.
    Listen....You are not stronger then the Law's dominion, and when you are under it, you are not "abiding" in Christ, which is the "apart from me", Christian failure situation.

    Here is a Key...
    Paul Said..."be a follower of ME".... and no other disciple tells you this, because no other apostle was taken "apart" and into a place for 3 yrs, where JESUS Himself personally taught Paul all the Church Doctrine, Justification by Faith, everything about "Spiritual Gifts"....everything about how to choose a Deacon, or a Bishop or Pastor......etc, etc, etc.
    So, its from PAUL you learn how to BE a real disciple, because its from PAUL you learn how to walk in the Light.

    This is why in 2nd Peter, .. Peter said that Paul's letters were equal to the Torah... they are "Scripture".
    And that is Peter, describing Paul's Letters, long before they became all the Church Doctrine, and 73% of the New Testament.
    See that?

    Saint, there is no other way that God will have it done.
    Jesus gave it to Paul, and Paul gives it to US and we do it, or we fail.
    That's the bottom line.
    A born again child of God MUST become a disciple of Paul, to become "the fullness of the Stature of Christ" on Earth.
    There is no other way to be perfected in your faith and within your understanding of How to walk in the Spirit.

    So, now... what about that sinning....

    Ok, to begin with, there is NO SIN "in Christ"....and that is you...= The Born again New Creation as you are found "in Christ", if you are born again, Reader.
    Born again......not just water baptized.
    Also, as God created the born again as "not under the Law, but under Grace".... there is no Law's dominion over you, if you are born again, as you are not under the Law, you are "under GRACE"...but you can change this by wrong believing.
    See,.... GRACE has its own Dominion, just like the Law has its own Dominion, and a person is under the dominion of one of those at all times.
    So, the way you stop committing works of the flesh...as that is how Grace defines "sin".... not the Law,= as the law defines them as SIN and you as a "sinner".
    But when we are not under the law, the law has no dominion or authority to title us as sinners or our carnal behavior as sin.
    You can go to Galatians and find where Paul lists all those carnal deeds, and he does not call them sin, he calls them "works of the flesh"... and a few include fornication, witchcraft.. etc........all that stuff that people do.

    So, how do you stop sinning?
    Well notice this verse...>... "the power of SIN....is the LAW".
    See that? That is the power of sin......so, to break the power of sin, is to exist NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under Grace.
    =That is KEY>.
    Now how do you EXIST, there........Well, here is the thing, Reader, .. you can be under the dominion of Grace, while you are exiting under the dominion of the Law.
    You can be born again, Yet, you are under the dominion of the Law....and to be there is to cause the power of sin, (which is the Law) = to cause you to want to sin more.
    The Law, and trying to keep it........all self effort to try to be accepted by God or to stay saved..... will cause the Law's dominion to enflame your flesh and you will sin MORE.

    Now all this that im teaching you Reader..... sounds spiritual, and that's because it is.. What im giving you here is HOW to exist as : Hebrew 13:9 And you have to do this, for LIFE.

    Listen, all of this that im showing you are the RULES that apply in the Kingdom of God, where we the born again, actually exist.
    But, if we dont abide by the rules that operate the KOG< then we exist under the law's dominion on earth, and the law "is the power of Sin".= and that is why you are sinning and confessing and can't stop.

    So, you have to stay out from under the LAW,,,,,in your BELIEVING< and Theological Understanding......which is to REST in the place where the dominion of Grace, empowers you to have "victory" that Paul talks about, which He had to do, also.
    So, we follow him, and we find the same Victory in Christ.
    When we follow Paul as he teaches us to exist IN GRACE, then we are abiding in "the vine".

    Now, take all this basic Hebrews 13:9 and Pauline Theology teaching im giving you and apply it AS "fallen from Grace".....as that is the STATE of a person who is born again, and is back under the dominion of the law....which Paul defines as : "who has bewitched you that you OBEY NOT THE TRUTH," and are now back in the "FLESH."
    Being in the FLESH = is when a believer has left faith in Christ to keep you saved and always at peace with God, and are now fallen down back into "good works" and "commandment keeping" or anything that is a self effort to try to stay in fellowship with God, and most especially try to keep themselves SAVED.

    Backsliding, is more then just living in a state of dead faith......its also to try to keep yourself saved.......So, when you BELIEVE you can lose your salvation.....you have stopped trusting in Christ to keep you saved , and are now trusting in YOU. = That is "falling from Grace".

    So, when you find the born again person who is teaching that you can lose your salvation, then they are revealing to you that that they are all that Paul has Described. = Fallen from Grace, and under the dominion of the law, and back in the Flesh.

    Its also a fact that an unsaved person will teach the same, because they are also, under the dominion of Law.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  2. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    Talk about easy believism and I am not saying that as a good thing.
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Ephesians 2:10 we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works, not in order to leave God's instructions for how to do good works. In In Romans 2:26, the way to tell that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), so having an uncircumcised heart is associatied with leaving God's law (Jeremiah 9:26, Acts 7:51-53).

    In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who had carnal minds who refuse to submit to God's law.

    In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so our obedience to God's law has always been about expressing our faith in Christ and has never been about what we can earn through our self efforts. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Every example o faith listed in Hebrews 11 is also an example of obedience to God's will, and there are many others verses that equate faith with obedience to God and breaking faith with disobedience to Him.

    In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves of God and righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to God's law is itself the gift of God. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing good what ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is part of the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so walking in obedience to God's law is what it looks like to be in Christ, not apart from him. It would be more accurate to say that leaving the law is exiting God's grace.

    Christ and Paul both set an example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law.

    In 2 Peter 3:15-17, Peter said that Paul was difficult to understand and that those who were ignorant and unstable twisted his words to their own destruction and were taken away by the error of lawless men, which is precisely what you have done.

    In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law and are obligated to obey it. God's law defines what sin is, which are works of the flesh, so refusing to submit to God's law is the way to commit to doing works of the flesh.

    In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful, however a law that is the power of sin is a law that is sinful, therefore 1 Corinthians 15:56 could not be referring to God's law, but rather it is the law of sin that is the power of sin. We are not under the law of sin, but under grace. It is the law of sin that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that causes sin to increase, not God's law.

    What you are teaching is carnal because it is the carnal mind that refuses to submit to God's law, while it is God's law that is spiritual (Romans 7:14)

    Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message and of what we need to do in order to enter the Kingdom of God. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God, and the Father has straightforwardly made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8). Every kingdom has laws that govern the conduct of its citizens and God's law is straightforwardly the law of God's kingdom.

    Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and the way to find victory in him is not by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. In Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

    Obedience to God's law is the way to live under grace, not the way to fall from grace. God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being of corrupted minds and disqualified from the faith. Works of the flesh are always things that are in disobedience to God's law and never those done in obedience to it.

    Do you believe that someone who has stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved has lost their salvation?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  4. Healing with Jesus

    Healing with Jesus merciful listener

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    I enjoyed reading your response and the Scriptures that you've cited. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the Torah, and then looked at your profile and see that you are Messianic. Do you believe that we are still bound by all of the laws given in the Torah, including the "ceremonial" laws as they are called, etc.?
     
  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello and thank you.

    People are free to create whatever subcategories of law that they want and to decide for themselves which laws they think best fit into those categories. For example, if I could categorize God's laws based upon which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, but that would not establish that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in that manner, so I would quickly run into error if I were to try to insert my subcategories back into the Bible in order to create my own doctrine, such as saying that hand laws have been abolished, and people fall into the same error with the "ceremonial" laws.

    The Bible never specifies which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as a subcategory of law, so it is up to everyone to decide for themselves which laws they think are ceremonial, which varies widely depending on who I ask. For example, I've spoken with a number of SDAs who consider the Ten Commandments to be the moral law of God and everything else to be ceremonial laws regardless of whether or not the other laws had anything in particular to do with ceremony. Some people say that the Ten Commandments are the moral law and divide the other laws into civil and ceremonial laws, which makes a bit more sense, however, other people see that there are other laws that are in regard to moral issues, such the law against kidnapping, which they want to move from the civil over the moral subcategory without giving a clear standard of how they determine which of the other laws are moral laws. Others want to move the greatest two commandments over to the moral subcategory, but the moment they try to do that, all of the other laws come with because Jesus said that all of Law and the Prophets hang on the greatest two (Matthew 22:40).

    My main problem with the subcategory of moral law is the implication that laws in the other categories are not moral laws, which would mean that there are some laws that are moral to disobey, where we would have greater moral knowledge than God in regard to laws that God shouldn't have commanded. However, there are no examples in the Bible of this, so I don't see good grounds for using that as a subcategory. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. So I do think that we are morally obligated to obey the Torah, however, there is not a single person who has ever been bound to obey all of the laws given in the Torah, and not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth.
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures there are different categories of law. For example God's eternal moral law (10 commandments) have a different purpose to the Mosiac laws for remission of sins under the old covenant therefore a different category of law. The categories of law are only defined in the purpose to what they are used for and their intent.

    If we look at Gods dietary laws of clean and unclean foods they are not moral laws or ceremonial laws for remission of sin and neither are they civil laws for governance. The same as the ceremonial laws for remission of sins or laws of what to do when someone sins in the old covenant and seeks to say sorry to God in confession and repentance under the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws. Of course these are not moral laws, they are laws on how we are to be made right with God once someone sins under the old covenant.

    This is verified further in the scriptures and can be seen by asking the simple question, how many commandments are in Gods' 10 commandments *Exodus 20:1-17 that were spoken by God and written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16 was it 9; 10 or 613 according to the scriptures *Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4? - God says there are only 10 not 9 or 613.

    There are only 10 commandments (teachings or words) that were directly spoken and written by God alone and it is referred to as God's law *Nehemiah 10:29 because God alone wrote it and spoke it and it was the work of God alone *Exodus 32:16 that we are told nothing can be added to it and that they are eternal *Ecclesiastes 3:14

    Of the 613 commandments of the old testament close to 40% are related to the ceremonial Sanctuary laws for remission of sins that the books of Hebrews say were shadows of good things to come *Hebrews 10:1. What does all this mean in the new covenant? Do we continue doing animal sacrifices for sin which was a shadow pointing to the coming work of the Messiah at that time? Of course not! Many of these laws are simply fulfilled in that to which they pointed > Christ *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17; Colossians 2:14-17; Ephesians 2:1-15.

    Of course nothing is abolished in the Torah but much of the old laws for remission of sins under the ceremonial Sanctuary laws (Priesthood, animal sacrifices etc) are fulfilled in the new covenant made with better promises. God's eternal law written on stone is to be written on the heart to love through the Spirit *2 Corinthians 3:3-5; Romans 8:1-4 and love fulfills God's law in those who believe and follow Gods' Word *1 John 5:3-4; Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 13:8-10.

    God's law (10 commandments) has the same role it always has and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin.

    I do not know who you have spoken to that are SDA that you claim believe that only God's 10 commandments are moral laws and everything else are ceremonial laws. That is not biblical and I do not know any SDA's that believe that claim to be honest so that is a new one to me.

    I agree with you that there is no grace without God's law as it is God's law that leads us to God's grace according to the bible.

    Happy Sabbath :wave:
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  7. Eilat

    Eilat Member

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    Actually, its not easy for most believers to believe that they don't have to live as a sinning and confessing carnal Christian.
    Most of them are like you.....They BELIEVE that they are supposed to be sinning and confessing.
    And this makes the devil very happy.
     
  8. Isilwen

    Isilwen Well-Known Member

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    If you say so.
     
  9. Eilat

    Eilat Member

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    You are very obsessed with the Law.
    God isn't.

    Also, Paul does not teach that we are saved so that we can now become a servant of and to the Law.
    He teaches that the Law is given to show us our unrighteousness, so that by this, we can turn to God, through Christ, to find God's Grace and imputed Righteousness.

    Hell is full of Law keepers and commandment keepers, while no one who is born again will ever go to hell.

    And to answer your question about "losing" Salvation..

    = Once you are born again, you are always born again.
    You can never stop being born again.

    See, you and all legalist's look at salvation as a work you are to complete, and that is not the correct understanding of God's GRACE.
     
  10. HIM

    HIM Friend CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    God will judge HIS people. If the born again are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Having partook of the Holy Ghost and tasted the heavenly gift. If they shall fall away there will be no more sacrifice for their sins. Only certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. whose end is to be burned. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    Heb 10:26 For if we are sinning wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
    Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


    Please define God's Grace.

    And also please define sin.
     
  11. Gary O'

    Gary O' Active Member

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    2 Corinthians 3:18 (NKJV) 18 "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

    By beholding, we become changed.......not covered......changed

    I know this

    He changed me

    ....and continues to, as I die daily to sin (you know that text)

    Once I take my eyes off Him, well, it ain't good
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that according to the Scripture there are different subcategories of law, however, those categories to not correspond to the man-made categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law. While the Bible does make a division between the Ten Commandments being written and spoken by God and all of God's other laws that were only spoken by Him, nowhere does the Bible state that this was done because they are the moral laws while it is moral to disobey any of God's other laws, such as God's dietary laws or sanctuary laws. For someone to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God is essentially for them to think that God was wrong to give certain laws and that they have greater moral knowledge than God. Furthermore, there are other laws that are clearly addressing moral issues that are not related to the remission of sins, such as the law against kidnapping. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

    We are to live by every word that comes out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4), not just what God has written, and God spoke all of the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:31-33). Furthermore, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Mosaic Law is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. In Nehemiah 10:29, the Hebrew speaks about the Torah, which is all of the Law of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments, and about the subcategories of mishpatim and chukim, each of which refers to much more than just the Ten Commandments, so again it is referring to the Law of Moses as the Law of God. All of God's righteous laws are eternal, not just ten of them (Psalms 119:160).

    In Colossians 2:14-17 and Hebrews:1, they speak about them as being foreshadows of the good things that are to come, and both were written long after the resurrection, so they still foreshadowing the good things that are to come, and we should live in a way that testifies about the good things that are to come and that points toward Christ by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law instead of a way that points away from him.

    In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said that he came to abolish the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so fulfilling the law does not mean essentially the same thing. Rather, to fulfill God's law is "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be", so that is what we should do in accordance with the example of obedience to the Mosaic Law that Christ set for us to follow. Love fulfills the Mosaic Law because all of its laws are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that all of the Law and the Prophets hang on the greatest two commandments.

    None of the verses that you listed specify that they are referring to only ten of God's laws, but rather the New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same laws. In Ezekiel 36:24-27, it again refers to mishpatim and chukim, which refers to much more than just the Ten Commandments.

    The laws that God has only spoken as just as much part of God's law are those that He has spoken and written.

    I've spoken with a number of SDAs on Facebook who have claimed that.

    It is not so much that the Mosaic Law leads us to grace as it is teaching us to obey it is how God is gracious to us (Psalms 119:29). Happy Sabbath!
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It is God who gave the Mosaic Law and who called for his people to repent and to return to it throughout the Bible, and who sent Jesus, who set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it as the living embodiment of the law, and who spent his ministry teaching his followers of how to obey it by word and by example. Jesus was much more obsessed with obedience to the Mosaic Law than the Pharisees were and I don't see how it is even possible for someone to become more obsessed about it than Jesus.

    Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to the law is what Christ saving us from living in disobedience to it looks like, so the point of salvation is to become a servant of the law, which is what Paul was speaking about in Romans 6:19-23. God's law does not just show us our unrighteousness, but also teaches us how to testify about God's righteousness, so it is God's instructions for how to turn to Him through Christ. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so obedience to it is what it looks like to find God's grace. Christ expressed His righteousness through his actions and what that looked like was a life lived in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like when we have been imputed with his righteousness.

    In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not that Hell is full of those who do the will of the Father. Furthermore, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, not those who are workers of the law. Everyone who is born again is a keeper of God's law.

    The fact that there are verses that encourage us to persevere demonstrates that it is possible to not persevere.

    If God is a legalist for commanding the Mosaic Law and Jesus is a legalist for living in sinless obedience to it and for spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist is is being in good company, but that is not what it means to be a legalist. David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how God is gracious to us, not legalism. I've said nothing to suggest that salvation is a work that I am to complete.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Soyeong, might break this down to a few smaller posts for convenience. These may be my last as I do not want to go offtopic to the OP.
    You claim you agree with me that there are different subcategories of law in the old testament scriptures but that these do not correspond to moral, ceremonial or civil laws. I agree that there are many subcategories of law in the old testament but disagree that there is no categories that include moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws under the old covenant. That claim is not true and neither is it biblical as can be shown in the following scripture examples...

    MORAL LAWS

    Moral law as a definition are any law that has to do with "right doing" in regards to expressing our love to God and our fellow man. In the Hebrew of the Greek the term mostly used to express moral law is "righteousness". The Hebrew and Greek definitions provided below are the same as given above...

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2239
    ἦθος; ēthos A strengthened form of G1485; usage, that is, (plural) MORAL HABITS: - manners

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
    Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

    RIGHTEOUSNESS is defined as the standard of MORAL RIGHT in the Hebrew which God’s Word defines as it directly in the scriptures as all of God's commandments *Psalms 119:172.

    Scripture examples of moral laws..

    God’s law written and spoken by God on two tables of stone (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1) Exodus 20:3; Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 20:7; Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:12; Exodus 20:13; Exodus 20:14; Exodus 20:15; Exodus 20:16; Exodus 20:17. Moral laws written and spoken by Moses in the book of the law or covenant (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 30:19) Leviticus 19:32; Deuteronomy 10:20; Leviticus 19:16-18; Leviticus 19:1-37 (most of which are expounding on God’s 10 commandments; Exodus 23:5; Deuteronomy 22:4; Exodus 22:21; Deuteronomy 24:19-21; Deuteronomy 15:7-11; Deuteronomy 10:19; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 21:15-17; Deuteronomy 23:18; Exodus 21:10; Deuteronomy 22:19; Leviticus 18:1-30; Exodus 23:1-12; Leviticus 25:14; 37; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12 etc etc…

    .................

    CEREMONIAL LAWS

    Ceremonial laws as a definition (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
    Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

    Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

    Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

    In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..

    Scripture examples of ceremonial laws...

    Leviticus 1:1-17; Leviticus 2:1-16; Leviticus 3:1-17; Leviticus 4:1-35; Leviticus 5:1-19; Leviticus 6:1-30; Leviticus 7:1-38; Deuteronomy 16:16; Leviticus 23:4-44; Exodus 23:14-18; Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 18:1-16; Leviticus 21:1-24; Leviticus 22:1-33; Leviticus 24:1-23; Exodus 25:1-40; Exodus 29:1-46; Exodus 21:18-19; Exodus 22:15-29; Deuteronomy 22:29; Deuteronomy 25:2-3; Deuteronomy 22:26; Deuteronomy 32:38; Exodus 22:27; Leviticus 19:26-31; Deuteronomy 18:11; Numbers 18:1-32; Number 19:1-22; Numbers 28:1-31; Numbers 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 12:1-32 etc etc…

    We can go on and on here looking at different subcategories of law…

    BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CIVIL LAWS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL

    Deuteronomy 16:18; Deuteronomy 1:17; Leviticus 25:14; Exodus 22:9-14; Deuteronomy 7:3; Numbers 5:30; Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Deuteronomy 25:5-9; Deuteronomy 14:22; Leviticus 25:37; Deuteronomy 23:20; Exodus 22:24; Deuteronomy 24:10-17; Leviticus 19:35; Deuteronomy 25:13-14; Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 23:25; Exodus 21:2-8; Leviticus 25:39-53; Deuteronomy 15:13-14; Leviticus 25:46; Numbers 27:8-11; Exodus 21:33-36; Exodus 22:4-27; Exodus 23:1; Deuteronomy 24:16; Leviticus 25:23-29; Deuteronomy 19:14; Exodus 21:20; Leviticus 26:25; Leviticus 20:10-14; Deuteronomy 21:23; Numbers 35:25; Deuteronomy 19:3; Deuteronomy 16:1-22; Deuteronomy 17:1-20; Deuteronomy 19:1-21; Deuteronomy 20:1-20; Deuteronomy 21:1-23 etc etc...

    BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THE LAWS OF HEALTH AND HYGIENE

    Leviticus 11:1-47; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Exodus 23:19; Genesis 1:29; Leviticus 7:23-26; Leviticus 17:13; Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 21:20; Leviticus 12:1-8; Leviticus 13:1-59; Leviticus 14:1-57; Leviticus 15:1-33; Deuteronomy 14:1-29 etc etc..

    ....................

    CONCLUSION: So according to the scriptures it is not biblical to claim that there are no categories of moral, ceremonial and civil laws in God's Word. As shown above through the scriptures and also shown in the Hebrew and Greek moral, ceremonial and civil laws are not man-made they are God made and written for our admonition in scripture.

    To be continued...
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Agreed although no one has said anywhere that we are to disobey God's other laws and as posted above already no one has said anywhere that there are not other moral laws outside of God's 10 commandments. That said most of the other laws outside of God's law (10 commandments) are in reference to and further expounding on Gods' law.

    Many however mix up God's eternal laws with the prophetic ceremonial laws of things to come that under the old covenant pointed to the coming Messiah JESUS as the Christ and Savior of the world and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc..
    Agreed, although, no one said anywhere that God did not tell Moses to write his other laws in a book and speak his laws to the people. That was not the point of what was posted to you earlier.

    There is a reason why God's law (10 commandments) were the work of God alone and spoken by God alone to His people and written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16 and not given to Moses to speak and write and that is God's law is eternal while much of the ceremonial laws of the Sanctuary, priesthood and laws for remission of sins where prophetic shadow laws of things to come in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc...

    One set of laws being the work of God alone written by God on two tables of stone and the other being spoken to Moses for him to write in the book of be law of the old covenant *Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Exodus 24:7. It was God who separated the book of the law from the tables of stone that were placed in the Ark (house) of the covenant * Deuteronomy 10:2; Deuteronomy 31:24-26. One is eternal the other of things to come pointing to the word of God's plan of salvation for all mankind.

    It is true we are to live by every word that proceed out of the mouth of God but we are in the new covenant not the old covenant and the old covenant ceremonial laws for remission of sins are fulfilled in the new covenant. Do you still make animal sacrifices for sin offerings if not why not? The shadows laws for remission of sin are fulfilled in the new covenant promise.
    Agreed, Nehemiah 10:29 speaks of all law that is why it says..

    Nehemiah 10:29, They joined to their brothers, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes

    Keeping a balanced view we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. We no longer follow the same laws for remission of sins from the old covenant now in the new covenant. Do you continue doing animal sacrifices every-time you sin? If not why not?

    Today in the new covenant the shadow laws of Torah are now fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation under the new covenant **Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17.

    God's eternal law (10 commandments) however have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.
    No. This it not true dear friend but let me explain why. Do you still do animal sacrifices? If not why not? Do you still seek out a Levitical Priest to offer your sin offerings every time you sin? If not why not?

    These are all a part of the old covenant Torah laws for remission of sins right? We are in the new covenant made of better promises now not the old covenant laws for remission of sins that are fulfilled in Christ. For example, Hebrews 7:1-28 shows that the laws of the Priesthood of the old covenant represents the Priesthood of JESUS in the new covenant; Hebrews 8:1-13 Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-22 describes the Sanctuary laws and Priesthood and the laws for remission of sins and sin offering of the old covenant where “shadows” of the old covenant pointing to new covenant fulfillment of Christ as our true priest and sacrifice and the earthly Sanctuary only being a copy of the Sanctuary in Heaven made without hands and Christs work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary and the laws written on stone of the old covenant to be written on the heart through love in the new covenant promise.

    We can also add to these scriptures Colossians 2:1-17 and Ephesians 2:1-15. Hebrews 10:1 says [1], For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Context here is to the sacrifices for remission of sins not the 10 commandments which are eternal.

    Context of the book of Hebrews is to the Jews who were still following old covenant teachings and the laws for remission of sin. Paul is showing them what those old covenant laws were pointing to under the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Colossians 2:17 says [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Paul is saying the body of Christ is here and the shadows point to and are fulfilled in JESUS!
    Agreed, no one said that the old testament Torah laws for remission of sin were abolished. They are fulfilled in Christ that is the shadows that pointed to things to come are fulfilled in Christ. That is they are continued in Christ not abolished. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what is being shared with you?
    Your response here...
    Where did I say anywhere that these verses are referring only to God's 10 commandments? If I never made those claims why are you saying I am? I did however focus in on the fulfillment of Gods' eternal law as this is how love to God and man is expressed again see Matthew 22:36-40 from Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5 and compare this to what Paul says in Romans 13:8-10 which is also agrees with what James says in James 2:10-11.
    True but many seem to be caught in the shadows of things to come when the body of Christ they point to has already arrived (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1).
    Your response...
    Ok but that is not SDA teachings and never has been.
    Yes and no. My reference when I say Gods law is to those laws written and spoken by God alone (10 commandments). It is these laws that give us the knowledge of good and evil, sin and righteousness in the new covenant as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11 showing us that the wages of sin is death in those who reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23; Romans 7:5-12; Romans 8:13. The law leads us to Christ that we might seek God's forgiveness faith as we follow God's word through confession and repentance of sin *1 John 1:9; Matthew 3:2; Acts of the Apostles 2:38. God grace is given in God's promise of forgiveness of sins to those who believe and follow God's Word. Therefore there can be no grace without law for all have sinned and full short of the glory of God *Romans 3:23.

    Thanks for the discussion. There is much we agree on it seems and much we do not. We are in the new covenant now not the old but I agree we are to live by every word of God. The shadows that point to JESUS are continued in him who loves us and washed us with his own blood.

    To him be all glory. AMEN!
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    The law only grants the knowledge of sin. Obedience to the law is impossible.
    The law was never given to sanctify anyone, the law merely condemns.

    Confess your sin and seek forgiveness.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    I prefer the Bible --

    1 Cor 9
    18 What, then, is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, ...23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    ... 26 Therefore I run in such a way as not to run aimlessly; I box in such a way, as to avoid hitting air; 27 but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

    Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, ...20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Rom 8 says that there is such a thing as a group of people that "do not submit to the gospel neither indeed CAN they"

    3 ...He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    If you agree that the law grants knowledge of sin and that we should refrain from doing what God has given knowledge is sin, then you should agree that we should obey God's law.

    In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible to do. Thinking that it is impossible would mean that God essentially gave the law to curse and condemn His children, which is expressing an extremely poor opinion of God. However, the reality is that God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to deny that the law is possible to obey is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that they are not burdensome. Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God...except obeying His commands?

    God's law is God's word, in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 17:17, it says to sanctify them in the truth and that God's word is truth.
     
  20. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    You already have been condemned by the law, your flesh is dead in Christ. The law grants the knowledge of sin and that's all it can do.

    Those living by the flesh cannot obey the law. A person walking under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is a forgiven person. They cannot sin and will not be judged.

    Only those living by the dictates of the flesh undergo judgement, God's wrath. Ultimately, because they reject Jesus Christ.

    Love fulfills the law, Bob cannot fulfill the law.
     
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