Learned something new about Luther...

[simonthezealot]

1st let me say theologically speaking I have great deal of respect for Martin Luther,"Bondage of the Will" is fabulous.
But let me get to the point my charismatic good friend Sunlover pointed out that Luther preached in the Large Catechism that baptism was necessary for salvation, I see that as opposition to Sola Fide.
I am anxious to hear from my Lutheran brethren more about how this is justified and would Luther say the theif on the cross was not saved?

 

[Tangible]

In scripture Baptism is plainly stated as the source of things that could only be accomplished by a work of God - forgiveness of sins, unification with the death and resurrection of Christ, salvation through the resurrection of Christ, the giving of the Holy Spirit, the putting to death of our sinful flesh and the new and continuing creation of the new man in Christ, and on, and on.

Jesus Christ himself instituted Christian Baptism and has commanded his Church to use it along with teaching to make new disciples.

Therefore, Luther rightly recognizes that Holy Baptism is just what the Church had always taught that it was, a salvific work of God.

Luther also recognized that scripture consistently and inescapably teaches that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone - that our salvation is always and only a result of an act of God. This act is accomplished in two parts, first the perfect, vicarious birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, and second God's subjective act to justify each individual he has saved since the beginning of the world.

Baptism, therefore, is not a law which must be obeyed by the individual in order to gain salvation, nor is it a hurdle over which we must jump in order to be completely saved.

Baptism is Gospel in tangible form, the union of God's saving Word with water created by God and ordained for this purpose.

It's not that we must be baptized to be saved, it's that God saves us through the word and water of Baptism.

 

[PaladinValer]

The Lutherans are infallibly right on the topic of Baptismal regeneration and its salvific nature.

Thanks be to God.

 

[sunlover1]

subscribing

Should be interesting

 

[simonthezealot]

In scripture Baptism is plainly stated as the source of things that could only be accomplished by a work of God - forgiveness of sins, unification with the death and resurrection of Christ, salvation through the resurrection of Christ, the giving of the Holy Spirit, the putting to death of our sinful flesh and the new and continuing creation of the new man in Christ, and on, and on.

Jesus Christ himself instituted Christian Baptism and has commanded his Church to use it along with teaching to make new disciples.

Therefore, Luther rightly recognizes that Holy Baptism is just what the Church had always taught that it was, a salvific work of God.

Luther also recognized that scripture consistently and inescapably teaches that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone - that our salvation is always and only a result of an act of God. This act is accomplished in two parts, first the perfect, vicarious birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, and second God's subjective act to justify each individual he has saved since the beginning of the world.

Baptism, therefore, is not a law which must be obeyed by the individual in order to gain salvation, nor is it a hurdle over which we must jump in order to be completely saved.

Baptism is Gospel in tangible form, the union of God's saving Word with water created by God and ordained for this purpose.

It's not that we must be baptized to be saved, it's that God saves us through the word and water of Baptism.

So there is salvation outside water baptism?

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[ViaCrucis]

So there is salvation outside water baptism?

Salvation objectively has taken place in Jesus Christ, crucified and raised up.

That salvation comes to us by Means: Word and Sacrament. This Word and Sacrament creates faith and through faith we apprehend God's promises which say to us that we belong to Him.

Word and Sacrament describes the Gospel made present to us, both spoken aloud, and tangibly present in Baptism and the Lord's Supper. It is always the Word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that makes real to us the objective reality and promises of God in Christ Jesus.

I cannot do this for myself, for being a sinner I cannot do anything righteous for my justification; but God being all gracious and all good comes down to me through the Gospel to take hold of me, renew me, justify me, and restore me to a right relationship with Him in Christ. This God does by His Gospel, which I hear when preached, and passively receive in the Sacraments.

Baptism is Gospel, God's Word in visible form; same with the Lord's Supper.

It isn't the water, or the one performing the baptism, or the baptismal candidate that makes Baptism efficacious; rather it is the Word of God, the Gospel, that makes it efficacious. The same Word which Christ spoke to the thief, the promissory Word of God when He says to us that where He is there we shall be also, that all our sins are forgiven, that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, that we have been crucified with Christ, and so on and so forth.

The same Word which Jesus speaks that justifies the thief is the same Word that is present for us in Baptism, the same Word that is to be preached to all the nations.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Shocker]

Salvation is literally this simple.

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Amen

 

[Albion]

So there is salvation outside water baptism?

Of course. And there's damnation even for some persons who have been baptized.

 

[Shocker]

Of course. And there's damnation even for some persons who have been baptized.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[godenver1]

If I'm correct Simon, baptism in the Lutheran church isn't in and of itself essential to salvation but 'apart' of it...if you know what I mean.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's not that we must be baptized to be saved, it's that God saves us through the word and water of Baptism.

I like this line.

As for the thief on the cross, if being baptized means to be united with Christ in death (at least the going- underwater part) ... Wouldn't you say he was baptized? In the most literal sense of all.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Baptism is the chief, principle, and normal means by which God formally and objectively saves a person and integrates them into the community of the saved, the church.

The preached Word can also kill and make alive, and indeed it does so throughout the baptized Christian's life. But the killing of the old Adam and the making alive of the new Adam in the Christian happens objectively and visibly in baptism, and therefore the preached Word which does so subjectively and invisibly is not where we look in order to establish our identity as children of God.

Of course, what happens in the preached Word and in baptism is always by grace, indeed, it is grace, because the actor in baptism in not the person being baptized but God himself. God is the one who baptizes, we are the ones who are baptized; God is the one who speaks, we are the ones who hear and are those killed and made alive; God is the one who gives us his body and blood, we are the ones who receive. We are always humble, unworthy, merely faithful recipients. It is the faithful reception of God's grace through his established and ordained means that makes us Christians. We are justified by grace alone through faith alone- a grace that comes by the preached Word and the administrated sacraments, and a faith that clings to God's promises that he offers us in both.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Of course, read what I've written along with Tangible's and ViaCrucis' posts.

PS: As for the thief on the cross, he was given a direct promise from the lips of God. That's exactly what we say about the sacraments: that they are "visible words," just as the Word is a "spoken sacrament." Sacraments without the word are magic; the Word without the sacraments is Gnosticism. Together, Word and Sacrament encompass the total reality of life under the Creator who graciously receives us in faith through his appointed means.

 

[sunlover1]

Baptism is the chief, principle, and normal means by which God formally and objectively saves a person and integrates them into the community of the saved, the church.

What about: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved"?

 

[Shocker]

What about: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved"?

Cant be that simple can it?

 

[Thekla]

Baptism is a command of Jesus Christ; isn't that enough to "recommend" baptism ?

 

[sunlover1]

Cant be that simple can it?

Not sure now LOL.
Should I be skeered?

 

[sunlover1]

Baptism is a command of Jesus Christ; isn't that enough to "recommend" baptism ?

Recommend? I think it makes all the difference.
You mean the baptism with water or the Holy Ghost
and fire baptism?

 

[Thekla]

Recommend? I think it makes all the difference.
You mean the baptism with water or the Holy Ghost
and fire baptism?

Jesus Christ commanded "water" baptism and discipling; our 'path' in Christ is described by Him in the continuous (ie. the command: start now and be following me). Water and the spirit -- ie, at baptism then chrismation/anointing/laying on of hands as demonstrated by Paul. As Peter also noted, our path is a process (from glory to glory, adding the virtues, etc.). Thus baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit are a "start point" as we "put on Christ" (Paul) and then continue. (Note that the Holy Spirit is described as fire but also wind/breath and water ...)