LDS LDS Patriarchal Blessings

[Jane_Doe]

Do you believe a person is saved by passing a theology test?
Or do you believe a person is saved by faith in Christ alone?

And why do you want to talk about another topic more than Christ, faith, or salvation?

*bump*

 

[drstevej]

Another patriarchal blessing excerpt...

Your existence in the premortal life has much meaning for you. You were found worthy and faithful and thus have the privilege of coming to earth in this important time when the Kingdom of God has been established in the last days for the last time, peopled with those who have the spirit of Christ within them and a desire to be teachable and humble, to be led and directed by the Holy Spirit to respond to those principles of righteousness that they may find joy in this life and be prepared and qualified to return to our Heavenly Father.

Comments from the recipient on her blog.

Now, I was told to keep this to myself and not to share it, ever. The one exception would be my one day husband. It's hard to keep things mysterious and unique if it's out for the world to see. So there it is. My personal horoscope blessing. Generic? Maybe. Can apply to almost anybody? Sure. But trust the church when they say that, "the blessings' fulfillment are often conditioned on members' faithfulness to the church, helping keep members obeying the church leaders and blaming themselves instead of the patriarchs' accuarcy when the promises are not fulfilled." So if the blessing ends up being wrong or misleading, it's not the patriarchs fault, it's yours.

From Mormon to Atheist

 

[Jane_Doe]

From Mormon to Atheist

If you're worried about Mormons turning to atheists, and would rather them turn into Baptists, wouldn't it make sense to talk about Christ?

 

[dzheremi]

Talking about how Mormonism/the LDS Church is not Christian is a prerequisite for talking about the true Christ with those who have accepted instead the Mormon Christ.

 

[He is the way]

Talking about how Mormonism/the LDS Church is not Christian is a prerequisite for talking about the true Christ with those who have accepted instead the Mormon Christ.

Jesus Christ asked His true disciples to keep the commandments. By their deeds they are known.

 

[He is the way]

Another patriarchal blessing excerpt...

Comments from the recipient on her blog.

From Mormon to Atheist

Why are you so interested in the beliefs of atheists?

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus Christ asked His true disciples to keep the commandments. By their deeds they are known.

This is not a cogent reply to what I have written. Mormonism's fake Christ is not the true Christ, and simply saying "By their deeds they are known" does nothing to address that.

Jane Doe: This ^ is why "talking about Christ" with Mormons is impossible and, broadly speaking, a waste of time. There is nowhere to go with such a discussion because when push comes to shove the Mormon has non-answers where they instead bear their testimony, or make canned replies like the above, or do any number of other dodges to avoid the only thing that a Christian can really say to a Mormon: that your religion is wrong and you are following a false Christ. So what can we really talk about? How you feel good about being a Mormon, or how Mormons do all kinds of good works, or whatever? Fine, but that's not talking about Christ. Saying "Jesus Christ asked His true disciples to keep the commandments" or "By their deeds they are known" mean nothing in and of themselves, beyond perhaps that the person saying that has read the Bible, as they do not speak to the vast gulf between what a Mormon takes as "keeping the commandments" (i.e., temple ordinances, sealing/eternal marriages, etc.) and what a Christian might mean if they say that or something similar.

There's no getting away from unrecognized and rejected Mormon doctrine to "talk about Christ" or anything related to the Christian religion. What accord has Christ with Belial? As I recall, none. That's the point of the question. So any talk must go through that thorny terrain, like when we (meaning you and I) exchanged hundreds of messages in other threads concerning basic Nicene Christian theology to underline the point that, no, your christ-figure is not Jesus, the Christ of Christianity. That was found to be so by your own words concerning what followers of your religion accept. And so be it, y'know...it's just that the constant non-reply of "Why don't you want to talk about Christ instead?" is a bit disingenuous when you know already that there is not the common ground there that there would need to be to even make that possible. I love talking about Christ. Mormonism's christ-figure is not Christ, though, so that's unrelated but by the fact that your religion stole the name and in some sense the personage for its own usage, no differently than Islam or various forms of Gnosticism had before. There's not much to "talk about Christ" with those people, either, because they're followers of other religions and philosophies, just as Mormons are, so talking about Christ within the boundaries of what they'll accept is kinda pointless, since that effectively means not talking about Christ at all.

 

[drstevej]

Jesus Christ asked His true disciples to keep the commandments. By their deeds they are known.

Why are you so interested in the beliefs of atheists?

Off topic

 

[BigDaddy4]

It is your assumption that patriarchal blessings are false prophecy however none my patriarchal blessing was false. It has all come to pass. Being a patriarch is a serious calling of God and is not to be taken lightly.

Good for you. What about the ones that don't come to pass? Should the patriarch who gave such a false blessing be killed then, in accordance with Deut 18:20? If the lds really take the patriarchal blessing seriously, shouldn't there be serious consequences for those that are wrong? Or do they just get a free pass like many of your early leaders and prophets do?

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, it seems like there's quite a bit of confirmation bias going on here. Even just reading the comments on that atheist blog of different ex-Mormons saying things like "My patriarchal blessing is worded very similar to yours" and "Yeah, XYZ will happen if you follow the rules...that way when it doesn't happen, it's your fault, and not theirs" is enough to make me stop and wonder...and that's definitely not because I find the arguments of atheists so convincing in themselves, obviously.

I wouldn't listen to anyone of my own Church who claimed to be able to prophecy, either. That's delusion. (NB: the desert fathers teach us that it is better to reject an angel out of vigilance than to unwittingly invite a demon into your cell because he tells you that you are special and have all these powers or whatever; spiritual delusion is a real thing). The prophets do not ever declare themselves as such, but are sent by God, and are recognized by their wisdom, not an ability to spin personalized tales. So it's weird to just accept that, as though there are no standards beyond "it came from a prophet." Where's your sense of discernment? What happened to "test all things"? I'm certainly not going to argue that anyone should be killed, but come on...if they're wrong, they're wrong. The pretzel logic involved in avoiding treating these men like the human beings they are is especially funny when Mormons on here and elsewhere make a big stink about how they "don't follow men", supposedly in contrast to what the apostate mainstream Christian churches do. Yeah, right. Will they next claim that the Patriarchal Blessings forms were in fact signed by God Himself, even though they clearly state otherwise?

I respect Mormons' rights to believe in whatever they want, including this stuff, but at some point you have to be able to say "This is silly", or "This is spiritually dangerous", or "This is prelest" (all of which apply to this practice), because it is. This stuff hurts people. It shouldn't be done.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I presume that these lds patriarchal blessings are all feel good words with positive outcomes. After all, what good would a negative one do their young bretheren? However, the lds concept of patriarchal blessings comes from Genesis 48 where Jacob blesses Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh. That wasn't exactly good news for Manasseh, as his younger brother would be greater than he. Nor in the next chapter when Jacob "blessed" all his sons. Didn't go so well for Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Dan, Gad, or Benjamin.

How come those types of "patriarchal blessings" don't happen in the lds system?

 

[drstevej]

Prophetic Blessings play to the same curiosity.

 

[He is the way]

Good for you. What about the ones that don't come to pass? Should the patriarch who gave such a false blessing be killed then, in accordance with Deut 18:20? If the lds really take the patriarchal blessing seriously, shouldn't there be serious consequences for those that are wrong? Or do they just get a free pass like many of your early leaders and prophets do?

You mean like Isaiah when his prophesy did not come to pass? Should Isaiah have been killed? However God can intervene and take away the blessing or add to the blessing depending on the circumstances.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You mean like Isaiah when his prophesy did not come to pass? Should Isaiah have been killed? However God can intervene and take away the blessing or add to the blessing depending on the circumstances.

Is there ever a negative blessing for the lds? Or is it all just white fluffy clouds and sunshine?

If God "intervenes", does the lds blessing get formally revised?

 

[drstevej]

So the curse on Nineveh was a Patriarchial Blessing?

Apples meet Oranges

 

[He is the way]

Is there ever a negative blessing for the lds? Or is it all just white fluffy clouds and sunshine?

If God "intervenes", does the lds blessing get formally revised?

Yes there have been negative blessings and revised blessings. You didn't answer my question should Isaiah have been killed when his prophecy did not come to pass?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes there have been negative blessings and revised blessings.

Show me one.

You didn't answer my question should Isaiah have been killed when his prophecy did not come to pass?

Now you want me to be a mind reader with your vague reference to Isaiah AND chase another rabbit hole that is not relevant to the topic??? Did Isaiah give and/or was given a patriarchal blessing?

 

[He is the way]

Show me one.


Now you want me to be a mind reader with your vague reference to Isaiah AND chase another rabbit hole that is not relevant to the topic??? Did Isaiah give and/or was given a patriarchal blessing?

Nope, I won't show you or tell you. It is not my place to do so.

 

[dzheremi]

How surprising.

Depicted: An illustrated example of what it's like to talk to Mormons on this website.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Nope, I won't show you or tell you. It is not my place to do so.

Never mind. I'll do the work for you.

Some pretty interesting things here - good and bad blessings that didn't come true.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1077132