LDS LDS Jesus -- Married with Children ???

[devin553344]

Orson Hyde (original member of the LDS Quorum of The Twelve Apostles)
March 18, 1855

“I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children” (Journal of Discourses 2:210).

This was presented at Conference... not a flippant remark.

That is blasphemy. Even from a moral perspective. To say a Father would marry his children is of course very sick even by social standards. So to say it to slander God and is of course then blasphemy. Does that make sense? It does to me

Not that I'm surprised to see a statement like that from a church that once supported Polygamy, which is also evil.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful just honest and perhaps teach people the truth.

 

[He is the way]

That is blasphemy. Even from a moral perspective. To say a Father would marry his children is of course very sick even by social standards. So to say it to slander God and is of course then blasphemy. Does that make sense? It does to me

Not that I'm surprised to see a statement like that from a church that once supported Polygamy, which is also evil.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful just honest and perhaps teach people the truth.

Every church that believes in Abraham, David and Jacob has polygamy in it's past. Where did you get the father marrying his children? Although the Bible does talk about incest with Lot and his daughters.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think Mormonism strongly has to suggest Jesus was married, lest it be possible Jesus attained the highest degree of exaltation without getting married. Mormons claim that in order to achieve the highest degree of exaltation in heaven a man and woman have to be united as a married couple (via Mormon ritual) and that those who do not go through with this will still be exalted but have a lesser existence.

It is not unreasonable given Mormon theology for Mormons to believe Jesus was married. It makes absolute sense given that Marriage is absolutely essential it is to Mormons.

The problem is that the New Testament doesn't emphasize marriage like the Mormons do. It even suggests that marriage isn't ultimately necessary and that we are better off not married to some degree. This is perhaps where the real discussion lies. Mormons don't believe Jesus was married based on a careful reading of the New Testament, they believe he was married (if they believe he was married) because their theology demands it so.

 

[drstevej]

Interesting, Ignatius. And remember LDS Heavenly Father is married to LDS Heavenly Mother

 

[devin553344]

Every church that believes in Abraham, David and Jacob has polygamy in it's past. Where did you get the father marrying his children? Although the Bible does talk about incest with Lot and his daughters.

It's clear from the Bible, that the apostles called Jesus Rabbi or Father because he is heavenly father. He is God. Now the OP indicated that a Mormon apostle said that Jesus married several of his children daughters.

Your argument about every church has polygamy in it's past is invalid. Since all churches currently treat it as evil like slavery was accepted and now evil, except Mormons who believe multiple marriage will be re instituted at some point and currently practice temple marriage of multiple women to men. They never grew in the belief that multiple marriage is evil.

 

[fat wee robin]

Hyde's comment does not matter. Not even something to bother with.

Unless I am mistaken ,you are just saying that this man Orson Hydes statements do not matter and we should as Christians ignore them .If so I agree as we cannot waste our time on some of the ridiculous things many people say .
And certain posters are not getting that .

 

[He is the way]

I think Mormonism strongly has to suggest Jesus was married, lest it be possible Jesus attained the highest degree of exaltation without getting married. Mormons claim that in order to achieve the highest degree of exaltation in heaven a man and woman have to be united as a married couple (via Mormon ritual) and that those who do not go through with this will still be exalted but have a lesser existence.

It is not unreasonable given Mormon theology for Mormons to believe Jesus was married. It makes absolute sense given that Marriage is absolutely essential it is to Mormons.

The problem is that the New Testament doesn't emphasize marriage like the Mormons do. It even suggests that marriage isn't ultimately necessary and that we are better off not married to some degree. This is perhaps where the real discussion lies. Mormons don't believe Jesus was married based on a careful reading of the New Testament, they believe he was married (if they believe he was married) because their theology demands it so.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:11)

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

 

[fat wee robin]

While it may have never been officially considered doctrine, it certainly was taught and believed by more than just Orson Hyde and for a lot longer than just 1855, the below happened in 1963, over 100 years later, it appears to be a "yes we do but keep it quiet, lying for the lord situation". Very interesting

Source for below fairmormon.org

"Joseph Fielding Smith apparently believed that Jesus had been married
Joseph Fielding Smith apparently believed that Jesus had been married, and that He had children. In a 1963 letter to Elder Smith (then President of the Quorum of the Twelve), J. Ricks Smith asked for clarification on a question he had concerning the marital and paternal status of Jesus:

Burbank, California March 17, 1963

President Joseph Fielding Smith 47 East South Temple Street Salt Lake City 11, Utah

Dear President Smith:

In a discussion recently, the question arose, "Was Christ married?" The quote of Isaiah 53:10 was given, which reads,

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul and offering for sin, he shall see His seed, he shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

What is meant by "he shall see his seed"? Does this mean that Christ had children?

In the Temple ceremony we are told that only through Temple marriage can we receive the highest degree of exaltation and dwell in the presence of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Christ came here to set us the example and, therefore, we believe that he must have been married. Are we right?

Sincerely,

J. Ricks Smith 1736 N. Ontario Street Burbank, California

In a written response (on the same letter), Elder Smith indicated his feelings on the matter—both in the positive. Placing an asterisk next to the words "His seed" in the letter, at the bottom of the letter Elder Smith wrote:

*Mosiah 15:10-12 Please Read Your Book of Mormon!

Placing two asterisks next to the words "he must have been married," at the bottom of the letter Elder Smith wrote:

**Yes! But do not preach it! The Lord advised us not to cast pearls before swine!

Apparently Elder Smith believed that the married state of Jesus was true, but that it should not be preached to others."

Funny ,I have never heard of Orson hyde or Joseph Fielding Smith or many other protestants, and I feel better for that ,as I realise how bad protestantism can be
with it's endless little individuals who think that they are important .

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Orson Hyde (original member of the LDS Quorum of The Twelve Apostles)
March 18, 1855

“I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children” (Journal of Discourses 2:210).

This was presented at Conference... not a flippant remark.

Scripture rules out the possibility of marriage and children of Jesus.
Acts 8:32-32:
This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.

 

[He is the way]

It's clear from the Bible, that the apostles called Jesus Rabbi or Father because he is heavenly father. He is God. Now the OP indicated that a Mormon apostle said that Jesus married several of his children daughters.

Your argument about every church has polygamy in it's past is invalid. Since all churches currently treat it as evil like slavery was accepted and now evil, except Mormons who believe multiple marriage will be re instituted at some point and currently practice temple marriage of multiple women to men. They never grew in the belief that multiple marriage is evil.

I don't recall any scripture that states that having more than one wife is evil. There is a stipulation that a man holding a certain office should have one wife. There is also this about a man with more than one wife:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 21:15 - 16)

15 ¶ If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

When David was rebuked for having Uriah killed, Nathan said:


(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 12:7 - 8)

7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Therefore it does not matter what is considered evil now. Every Christian church has polygamy in it's past and God condoned it.

 

[He is the way]

It's clear from the Bible, that the apostles called Jesus Rabbi or Father because he is heavenly father. He is God. Now the OP indicated that a Mormon apostle said that Jesus married several of his children daughters.

Your argument about every church has polygamy in it's past is invalid. Since all churches currently treat it as evil like slavery was accepted and now evil, except Mormons who believe multiple marriage will be re instituted at some point and currently practice temple marriage of multiple women to men. They never grew in the belief that multiple marriage is evil.

You said:You said "Now the OP indicated that a Mormon apostle said that Jesus married several of his children daughters." They were not His daughters nor did the OP say they were Jesus' daughters. If Jesus had daughters we would not know their names.

 

[He is the way]

Scripture rules out the possibility of marriage and children of Jesus.
Acts 8:32-32:
This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth.

That does not rule it out. It is a question not a statement. All of the Rabbis were married.

 

[devin553344]

I don't recall any scripture that states that having more than one wife is evil. There is a stipulation that a man holding a certain office should have one wife. There is also this about a man with more than one wife:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 21:15 - 16)

15 ¶ If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

When David was rebuked for having Uriah killed, Nathan said:


(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 12:7 - 8)

7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Therefore it does not matter what is considered evil now. Every Christian church has polygamy in it's past and God condoned it.

God never condoned polygamy, nor slavery, as you have indicated he simply made some better moral rules for each since the people of the day were practicing both. It's clearly in the bible the rules for slavery and polygamy. Now we know slavery is evil, do we not? With your reasoning God condoned slavery, since he spelled out rules for it, but I say it is also evil. God simply brought some better peace and mercy in the areas of polygamy and slavery.

 

[He is the way]

God never condoned polygamy, nor slavery, as you have indicated he simply made some better moral rules for each since the people of the day were practicing both. It's clearly in the bible the rules for slavery and polygamy. Now we know slavery is evil, do we not? With your reasoning God condoned slavery, since he spelled out rules for it, but I say it is also evil. God simply brought some better peace and mercy in the areas of polygamy and slavery.

You are just stating your own opinion on the subject. Perhaps that is because the Bible has no condemnation of polygamy.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:11)

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

A statement I don't disagree with. Marriage is good but clearly it is not as idealized as Mormons would teach. We no where see in the Testament that marriage is absolutely necessary to attain the highest state of blessedness.

But what do you think about my conclusion regarding where Mormon theology ought to lead to on the question of Jesus being married? If Jesus was not married, yet achieved a status of highest exaltation, this would conflict with Mormon notions on the necessity of marriage, no?

 

[RoseCrystal]

Unless I am mistaken ,you are just saying that this man Orson Hydes statements do not matter and we should as Christians ignore them .If so I agree as we cannot waste our time on some of the ridiculous things many people say .
And certain posters are not getting that .

How can a statement made by one of the original 12 Apostles of the LDS church (Orson Hyde), in General Conference in 1855, and backed up by the president/prophet (Jospeh Fielding Smith) of the church over 100 years later in 1963 not matter? Even more so because of the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith said - in writing - yes we believe Jesus was married - but don't tell anyone! How can that honestly not matter? How can that be ignored?

This is not a case of a couple of people believing and saying something 'ridiculous', these are very high up leaders of the LDS church and what they believed. Granted it appears they spoke of these beliefs mostly in secret and not to be shared with the general membership of the church - but honestly doesn't that make it even worse?

It matters what they said, it matters what they did, and it certainly matters that they were instructed to keep it from the members of the church who trusted their spiritual well being to them. You bet it matters!

"Yes! But do not preach it! The Lord advised us not to cast pearls before swine!" Joseph Fielding Smith 1963.

Apparently the President of the LDS church in 1963 thought that its own members were 'swine' - nice!

 

[He is the way]

A statement I don't disagree with. Marriage is good but clearly it is not as idealized as Mormons would teach. We no where see in the Testament that marriage is absolutely necessary to attain the highest state of blessedness.

But what do you think about my conclusion regarding where Mormon theology ought to lead to on the question of Jesus being married? If Jesus was not married, yet achieved a status of highest exaltation, this would conflict with Mormon notions on the necessity of marriage, no?

Do you believe that Jesus kept all of the commandments? God said this to Adam and Noah:
(Old Testament | Genesis 9:1)

1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

 

[He is the way]

How can a statement made by one of the original 12 Apostles of the LDS church (Orson Hyde), in General Conference in 1855, and backed up by the president/prophet (Jospeh Fielding Smith) of the church over 100 years later in 1963 not matter? Even more so because of the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith said - in writing - yes we believe Jesus was married - but don't tell anyone! How can that honestly not matter? How can that be ignored?

This is not a case of a couple of people believing and saying something 'ridiculous', these are very high up leaders of the LDS church and what they believed. Granted it appears they spoke of these beliefs mostly in secret and not to be shared with the general membership of the church - but honestly doesn't that make it even worse?

It matters what they said, it matters what they did, and it certainly matters that they were instructed to keep it from the members of the church who trusted their spiritual well being to them. You bet it matters!

"Yes! But do not preach it! The Lord advised us not to cast pearls before swine!" Joseph Fielding Smith 1963.

Apparently the President of the LDS church in 1963 thought that its own members were 'swine' - nice!

Jesus did likewise:
(New Testament | Matthew 16:20)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

(New Testament | Luke 8:56)

56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

 

[drstevej]

So single folks are sinners?
Childless parents are sinners?

 

[RoseCrystal]

Jesus did likewise:
(New Testament | Matthew 16:20)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

(New Testament | Luke 8:56)

56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

Orson Hyde and Jospeh Fielding Smith are certainly NOT Jesus, I find the fact that you are trying to compare them ridiculous.