LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Peter1000

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1. God is our judge.
2. You aren't God.
3. You don't know what I believe because you can't see my heart.
4. The words in the Bible are the words of God; I believe those words.
5. When did I say, "I only believe some of the Bible?"

Joseph Smith was disrespectful of God's word and tried to rewrite it. View attachment 262522
Let's see if you believe all of the bible?
Do you believe this scripture:
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 
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Peter1000

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1. God is our judge.
2. You aren't God.
3. You don't know what I believe because you can't see my heart.
4. The words in the Bible are the words of God; I believe those words.
5. When did I say, "I only believe some of the Bible?"

Joseph Smith was disrespectful of God's word and tried to rewrite it. View attachment 262522
Thousands of Christians since the first century have translated the bible and disrespected God's word and rewritten it. So why is JS such a bad character for doing the same thing that lot's of other people did.
Have you ever read Martin Luther's translation of the bible. Many call it a monumental work and he is their hero. But it is designed to support Martin's rebellion from the Catholic church. It is interesting. So is hero Martin Luther disrespectful of God word?
 
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mmksparbud

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Thousands of Christians since the first century have translated the bible and disrespected God's word and rewritten it. So why is JS such a bad character for doing the same thing that lot's of other people did.
Have you ever read Martin Luther's translation of the bible. Many call it a monumental work and he is their hero. But it is designed to support Martin's rebellion from the Catholic church. It is interesting. So is hero Martin Luther disrespectful of God word?

Luther never claimed to be a prophet of God. He had his failings---disrespect of God's word was not one. Have never read his version ---I know he was disrespectful of the Catholic church---not God.
 
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dzheremi

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Thousands of Christians since the first century have translated the bible and disrespected God's word and rewritten it.

A translation is a translation, i.e., taking the words and meaning of one language and putting them into another language using its own words and meaning. Examples of this include St. Mark's rendering of Christ's cry upon the Cross:

And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"​

A "rewriting" doesn't necessarily involve translation -- things can be paraphrased or otherwise rendered in one language without directly translating from another. This is particularly helpful to note when we are dealing with translation from Semitic languages like Hebrew and Aramaic into Indo-European languages like Greek, Latin, etc. This is because the Semitic languages form their words differently than Indo-European languages do. In Semitic languages, words are formed around consonantal 'roots' which are fit into templates which, depending on how the space around the consonantal root is 'filled in' with different vowels, tell us something of their relationship to the root which denotes the concept.

The example you'll find in every Arabic 101 textbook is K-T-B, which denotes something about writing (the general concept). From that K-T-B root, we get words like kitab 'book', kutub 'books' (plural), katib 'writer', maktaba 'library', maktab 'office', and so on.

Since the scripts of almost all Semitic languages* only obligatorily denote consonants and sometimes long vowels, without some kind of diacritical marking there can be ambiguity as to what words that otherwise look the same actually mean. This is why you find those diacritics in Arabic (and Hebrew, etc.) only in texts where proper understanding and pronunciation is paramount -- like religious texts -- or in learner's texts (dictionaries, etc.) or in contexts where they are needed to resolve ambiguity (where the context alone does not preference one understanding over another, so you have to literally point out "no, it's this, not that").

Imagine trying to read a script that just says MRMNSM S FLS Is it "Mormonism is false"? Is it "Mermanism so fills"? Is it "Mirmanism's fleas"? Disregarding the fact that the latter two are gibberish in English (or I dunno...maybe someone's so fulfilled in their worship of male mermaids that they need to tell us about it, or maybe they started a cult that worships comedian and voice actor Eugene Mirman, and all they have to show for it is flea bites, and they're trying to warn us...), you can't really know as it is without contextual clues that you may or may not have.

Hence in early Christianity there was a bit of controversy concerning the Greek translation of the OT done in Alexandria, Egypt in the centuries before Christ, known as the Septuagint or the by the Latin numeral abbreviation LXX (for "70", referring to the number of translators who worked on it). You may remember it from the writings of St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century, when he accused the Jews of embracing another text rather than this one, which he claims they previously used. The reason they could have even 'switched' to a different text is because of this ambiguity in the way the text was written -- if you fill in the consonantal text with different vowels according to your own reading, you get a different meaning. That's why Christians have traditionally used the LXX translation for their OT: not only do we believe that it probably represents an older tradition that was more or less abandoned by the Jews after the coming of Jesus Christ and the identification of Him as the promised Messiah (a claim which most Jews of His day rejected, mind you), but its readings support Christian -- specifically not Jewish -- understandings of prophecies that we believe to be told of Christ in the OT. For instance, there is a portion of the Psalms (I can't remember which one exactly, as the Psalms are numbered differently in Eastern and Western Christianity) that the LXX translated as "They pierce my hands and feet" (obviously in reference to Christ's crucifixion), but which is translated in the later Masoretic text (which was used as the standard OT source text in Protestant Bibles and some Catholic Bibles) as "There are lions at my hands and feet".

Which of these is a translation and which is a 'rewriting'? Obviously if you have an ambiguous source text based on features of the script used to write it, it can mean several things without any side being a 'rewriting' -- hence St. Justin's objection to the Jews of his time is that they had switched from one translation to another, and hence 'corrupted' the scriptures by their new, specifically Christ-excluding understanding...all without even one letter changing from the source text. (NB: There was once a belief that the Jews held a council called the Council of Jamnia specifically to address Christian claims by inserting the appropriate diacritical marks to standardize the reading of the text away from Christian readings, but I don't think most scholars actually believe that this was literal historical event anymore. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I think the balance in academia points to it being doubtful or fabricated. I do still hear it repeated in some churches sometimes -- even my own -- as it was a very popular belief that went unchallenged for about a century, and hence can be found in many fairly modern academically-minded books where it is taught as a literal historical event. As you can read at the link, it only began to be widely rejected in the 1960s.)


(*Long aside: the Ethiopian languages written in the Ge'ez script buck this trend by obligatorily marking vowels by means of various 'descenders' which are fused to the consonant itself, making every character a syllable, e.g., here's your name Mormon, for instance: ሞርሞን Mo-rɨ-mo-nɨ . In this transliteration, the ɨ vowel, which some prefer to transliterate as ə or ä -- I don't know that there is a standard -- represents a kind of central vowel which may be elided/not spoken, so as to produce "Mormon", rather than "Morimoni"; this is how the script can represent written consonant clusters like አምሐራ Amhara or ኦርቶዶክስ Ortodoks, which are written but not spoken like 'amɨhara and 'Orɨtodokɨsɨ. This is distinctly Christian development: before the acceptance of Christianity, the script hadn't had these fused vowel markers, and hence remained consonantal and non-syllabic, as Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. are.)

So why is JS such a bad character for doing the same thing that lot's of other people did.

Because he wasn't doing the same thing. He was working with something that was already a translation into English, and perfectly understandable as it was, and he added other things in his 'translation' that were not based on anything in the source text, but on his own twisted belief.

It would be like (if I believed this; I do not -- this is an example only) if I inserted into the Biblical text, a propos of nothing, something that said "And then Jesus said 'Everyone needs to be Orthodox, because only Orthodox Christians get saved.'" That may very well reflect my own ecclesiological/soteriological belief, but if it is not in the source text I am working with, then I'm really just putting my beliefs in Jesus' mouth, aren't I?

Similar charges are in fact made by some Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians against Luther, for supposedly adding the word "alone" into the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, so that 3:28 would read in the German translation: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith"

The word "alone" apparently does not appear in any of the manuscripts of that text. so the charge is that was only added to support Luther's 'Sola Fide' doctrine. (I, not being RC or EO, don't know anything about this beyond that the controversy exists, and don't really care to weigh in on it, out of respect for our Protestant friends on this forum who are so often invaluable in the continuing conversation against non-Christian faiths.)

So is hero Martin Luther disrespectful of God word?

It depends on who you ask. And probably if you ask all of those same people what they think about Joseph Smith's additions to the Bible in his 'translation' work, they will all say it is completely unacceptable and rejected.

That ought to give you pause. :scratch::idea:
 
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Peter1000

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The verses say all. Are you changing the meaning of all again?
All people since the beginning of time have not had the chance to sit with a teacher and learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, they must admit that there is a God, just because of the beauty of the creation, but their fathers have destroyed the truth and know not Jesus.

If it is really true that Jesus saves, then God in all fairness must give all a chance to choose whether or not they believe in this gospel of Jesus Christ. Otherwise God is not God.

The verses do not say that. You are making it up based on your false gospel and prophets that you follow.

If you are referring to Paul talking about ordinances, it says exactly that Paul gave them sacred ordinances and they were to adhere to them. Tell me what you think that verse says?

The other verse tells us that the gospel was preached to the dead. Pretty exact. Why must the dead be preached the gospel? Because they had no chance to hear it on earth, and if Jesus saves, they must in all fairness hear this gospel and have a chance to accept it or reject it, or God is not God who would fling a man or woman into hell without a chance to hear about His son Jesus, and be saved from hell fire.

More of your false gospel. It is not consistent with Biblical Scriptures.
Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Can you tell me after a man dies, how long after that death will he be judged?
Is it like the man dies and he immediately he is standing in front of the judgement seat and being judged?
And if he says, "I don't know who Jesus Christ is, will God tell him, then you go to hell for not knowing my Son? Is that how it works.

Our solution is consistent with Hebrews, if the judgment is after the resurrection, which it is.
The resurrection will take place and then the judgement. The first resurrection was at Christ's resurrection, the second resurrection will be at the second coming of Christ. There has been around 2,000 years since the first one, and we don't quite know the date of the second coming.
So for some people who died in 40bc, they have been in the spirit world a long time and still have some time to go before they are judged.

Your second chance gospel is a false gospel.

It is not a second chance gospel. For billions it will be a first chance gospel teaching.
For those who have had the chance to accept Jesus or not, you are right, what they did on earth, will be what they receive in heaven.

The question is: have they truly had a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ? If 2 missionaries from you church knocked at their door and they introduced themselves, but were not invited in, is that a chance?
If a pygmy from Borneo was walking through the jungle and came upon a missionary and even helped them out of the jungle, but could not communicate well, so the missionary told them about Jesus, but not in their language, and they parted without really being able to study the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is that a chance?

God will judge what is a chance and what is not a chance. We don't have to worry about that.

Yes, God has a solution and is clearly stated in the Romans 1 and Acts 14 verses already posted.

You will have to explain the solution to me, I don't see it.
Our solution from Jesus says teach them the gospel in the spirit world and baptize them by proxy. Simple, just like in the bible.
 
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Rescued One

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Let's see if you believe all of the bible?
Do you believe this scripture:
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Yes. I told you that I believe the Bible. And the Holy Spirit is still teaching me.

Ephesians 4
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Each Christian has first received forgiveness from God.

2 Corinthians 2
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
 
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Peter1000

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A translation is a translation, i.e., taking the words and meaning of one language and putting them into another language using its own words and meaning. Examples of this include St. Mark's rendering of Christ's cry upon the Cross:

And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"​

A "rewriting" doesn't necessarily involve translation -- things can be paraphrased or otherwise rendered in one language without directly translating from another. This is particularly helpful to note when we are dealing with translation from Semitic languages like Hebrew and Aramaic into Indo-European languages like Greek, Latin, etc. This is because the Semitic languages form their words differently than Indo-European languages do. In Semitic languages, words are formed around consonantal 'roots' which are fit into templates which, depending on how the space around the consonantal root is 'filled in' with different vowels, tell us something of their relationship to the root which denotes the concept.

The example you'll find in every Arabic 101 textbook is K-T-B, which denotes something about writing (the general concept). From that K-T-B root, we get words like kitab 'book', kutub 'books' (plural), katib 'writer', maktaba 'library', maktab 'office', and so on.

Since the scripts of almost all Semitic languages* only obligatorily denote consonants and sometimes long vowels, without some kind of diacritical marking there can be ambiguity as to what words that otherwise look the same actually mean. This is why you find those diacritics in Arabic (and Hebrew, etc.) only in texts where proper understanding and pronunciation is paramount -- like religious texts -- or in learner's texts (dictionaries, etc.) or in contexts where they are needed to resolve ambiguity (where the context alone does not preference one understanding over another, so you have to literally point out "no, it's this, not that").

Imagine trying to read a script that just says MRMNSM S FLS Is it "Mormonism is false"? Is it "Mermanism so fills"? Is it "Mirmanism's fleas"? Disregarding the fact that the latter two are gibberish in English (or I dunno...maybe someone's so fulfilled in their worship of male mermaids that they need to tell us about it, or maybe they started a cult that worships comedian and voice actor Eugene Mirman, and all they have to show for it is flea bites, and they're trying to warn us...), you can't really know as it is without contextual clues that you may or may not have.

Hence in early Christianity there was a bit of controversy concerning the Greek translation of the OT done in Alexandria, Egypt in the centuries before Christ, known as the Septuagint or the by the Latin numeral abbreviation LXX (for "70", referring to the number of translators who worked on it). You may remember it from the writings of St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century, when he accused the Jews of embracing another text rather than this one, which he claims they previously used. The reason they could have even 'switched' to a different text is because of this ambiguity in the way the text was written -- if you fill in the consonantal text with different vowels according to your own reading, you get a different meaning. That's why Christians have traditionally used the LXX translation for their OT: not only do we believe that it probably represents an older tradition that was more or less abandoned by the Jews after the coming of Jesus Christ and the identification of Him as the promised Messiah (a claim which most Jews of His day rejected, mind you), but its readings support Christian -- specifically not Jewish -- understandings of prophecies that we believe to be told of Christ in the OT. For instance, there is a portion of the Psalms (I can't remember which one exactly, as the Psalms are numbered differently in Eastern and Western Christianity) that the LXX translated as "They pierce my hands and feet" (obviously in reference to Christ's crucifixion), but which is translated in the later Masoretic text (which was used as the standard OT source text in Protestant Bibles and some Catholic Bibles) as "There are lions at my hands and feet".

Which of these is a translation and which is a 'rewriting'? Obviously if you have an ambiguous source text based on features of the script used to write it, it can mean several things without any side being a 'rewriting' -- hence St. Justin's objection to the Jews of his time is that they had switched from one translation to another, and hence 'corrupted' the scriptures by their new, specifically Christ-excluding understanding...all without even one letter changing from the source text. (NB: There was once a belief that the Jews held a council called the Council of Jamnia specifically to address Christian claims by inserting the appropriate diacritical marks to standardize the reading of the text away from Christian readings, but I don't think most scholars actually believe that this was literal historical event anymore. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I think the balance in academia points to it being doubtful or fabricated. I do still hear it repeated in some churches sometimes -- even my own -- as it was a very popular belief that went unchallenged for about a century, and hence can be found in many fairly modern academically-minded books where it is taught as a literal historical event. As you can read at the link, it only began to be widely rejected in the 1960s.)


(*Long aside: the Ethiopian languages written in the Ge'ez script buck this trend by obligatorily marking vowels by means of various 'descenders' which are fused to the consonant itself, making every character a syllable, e.g., here's your name Mormon, for instance: ሞርሞን Mo-rɨ-mo-nɨ . In this transliteration, the ɨ vowel, which some prefer to transliterate as ə or ä -- I don't know that there is a standard -- represents a kind of central vowel which may be elided/not spoken, so as to produce "Mormon", rather than "Morimoni"; this is how the script can represent written consonant clusters like አምሐራ Amhara or ኦርቶዶክስ Ortodoks, which are written but not spoken like 'amɨhara and 'Orɨtodokɨsɨ. This is distinctly Christian development: before the acceptance of Christianity, the script hadn't had these fused vowel markers, and hence remained consonantal and non-syllabic, as Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. are.)



Because he wasn't doing the same thing. He was working with something that was already a translation into English, and perfectly understandable as it was, and he added other things in his 'translation' that were not based on anything in the source text, but on his own twisted belief.

It would be like (if I believed this; I do not -- this is an example only) if I inserted into the Biblical text, a propos of nothing, something that said "And then Jesus said 'Everyone needs to be Orthodox, because only Orthodox Christians get saved.'" That may very well reflect my own ecclesiological/soteriological belief, but if it is not in the source text I am working with, then I'm really just putting my beliefs in Jesus' mouth, aren't I?

Similar charges are in fact made by some Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians against Luther, for supposedly adding the word "alone" into the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, so that 3:28 would read in the German translation: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith"

The word "alone" apparently does not appear in any of the manuscripts of that text. so the charge is that was only added to support Luther's 'Sola Fide' doctrine. (I, not being RC or EO, don't know anything about this beyond that the controversy exists, and don't really care to weigh in on it, out of respect for our Protestant friends on this forum who are so often invaluable in the continuing conversation against non-Christian faiths.)



It depends on who you ask. And probably if you ask all of those same people what they think about Joseph Smith's additions to the Bible in his 'translation' work, they will all say it is completely unacceptable and rejected.

That ought to give you pause. :scratch::idea:
I do understand the difference between Luther's translation and JS rendition of the bible.

Paraphrasing and a translators best guess as to what BTK means, is the problem with translating a bible from A language to B language.

The Lord told JS to take the English translation and he would be guided by the Holy Spirit to what the text should say. So you are right it was not a translation. We call it the Inspired Version. Because it was in the hands of non-members for a time after his death, we are not 100% sure of the wording, therefore we use the KJV in our services, and what we study with and when we talk to people, once in a while referring to the IV when we want a clarification of a particular topic.
 
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Rescued One

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Thousands of Christians since the first century have translated the bible and disrespected God's word and rewritten it. So why is JS such a bad character for doing the same thing that lot's of other people did.
Have you ever read Martin Luther's translation of the bible. Many call it a monumental work and he is their hero. But it is designed to support Martin's rebellion from the Catholic church. It is interesting. So is hero Martin Luther disrespectful of God word?

Which person that translated the Bible was a Christian and which wasn't?

1 Corinthians 1
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

Joseph Smith and Martin Luther were not crucified for me and I was never baptized in their names.
 
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Rescued One

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I do understand the difference between Luther's translation and JS rendition of the bible.

Paraphrasing and a translators best guess as to what BTK means, is the problem with translating a bible from A language to B language.

The Lord told JS to take the English translation and he would be guided by the Holy Spirit to what the text should say. So you are right it was not a translation. We call it the Inspired Version. Because it was in the hands of non-members for a time after his death, we are not 100% sure of the wording, therefore we use the KJV in our services, and what we study with and when we talk to people, once in a while referring to the IV when we want a clarification of a particular topic.

When did you stop calling it the JST (Joseph Smith Translation)? Community of Christ are the ones who gave it the title Inspired Version of the Bible.
The Inspired Version of the Bible
 
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dzheremi

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[....] The Lord told JS to take the English translation and he would be guided by the Holy Spirit to what the text should say. So you are right it was not a translation. We call it the Inspired Version. Because it was in the hands of non-members for a time after his death, we are not 100% sure of the wording, therefore we use the KJV in our services, and what we study with and when we talk to people, once in a while referring to the IV when we want a clarification of a particular topic.

How can you have clarification from the IV if you are not sure of what it says? That sounds pretty unclear.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes. I told you that I believe the Bible. And the Holy Spirit is still teaching me.

Ephesians 4
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Each Christian has first received forgiveness from God.

2 Corinthians 2
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I am glad to see you believe that we must forgive or we will not be forgiven.

Each Christian has first received forgiveness from God, and as long as they forgive all that trespass against them, he will continue to forgive them. So his forgiveness is dependent upon our willingness to forgiveness. Right?
 
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mmksparbud

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A translation is a translation, i.e., taking the words and meaning of one language and putting them into another language using its own words and meaning. Examples of this include St. Mark's rendering of Christ's cry upon the Cross:

And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"​

A "rewriting" doesn't necessarily involve translation -- things can be paraphrased or otherwise rendered in one language without directly translating from another. This is particularly helpful to note when we are dealing with translation from Semitic languages like Hebrew and Aramaic into Indo-European languages like Greek, Latin, etc. This is because the Semitic languages form their words differently than Indo-European languages do. In Semitic languages, words are formed around consonantal 'roots' which are fit into templates which, depending on how the space around the consonantal root is 'filled in' with different vowels, tell us something of their relationship to the root which denotes the concept.

The example you'll find in every Arabic 101 textbook is K-T-B, which denotes something about writing (the general concept). From that K-T-B root, we get words like kitab 'book', kutub 'books' (plural), katib 'writer', maktaba 'library', maktab 'office', and so on.

Since the scripts of almost all Semitic languages* only obligatorily denote consonants and sometimes long vowels, without some kind of diacritical marking there can be ambiguity as to what words that otherwise look the same actually mean. This is why you find those diacritics in Arabic (and Hebrew, etc.) only in texts where proper understanding and pronunciation is paramount -- like religious texts -- or in learner's texts (dictionaries, etc.) or in contexts where they are needed to resolve ambiguity (where the context alone does not preference one understanding over another, so you have to literally point out "no, it's this, not that").

Imagine trying to read a script that just says MRMNSM S FLS Is it "Mormonism is false"? Is it "Mermanism so fills"? Is it "Mirmanism's fleas"? Disregarding the fact that the latter two are gibberish in English (or I dunno...maybe someone's so fulfilled in their worship of male mermaids that they need to tell us about it, or maybe they started a cult that worships comedian and voice actor Eugene Mirman, and all they have to show for it is flea bites, and they're trying to warn us...), you can't really know as it is without contextual clues that you may or may not have.

Hence in early Christianity there was a bit of controversy concerning the Greek translation of the OT done in Alexandria, Egypt in the centuries before Christ, known as the Septuagint or the by the Latin numeral abbreviation LXX (for "70", referring to the number of translators who worked on it). You may remember it from the writings of St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century, when he accused the Jews of embracing another text rather than this one, which he claims they previously used. The reason they could have even 'switched' to a different text is because of this ambiguity in the way the text was written -- if you fill in the consonantal text with different vowels according to your own reading, you get a different meaning. That's why Christians have traditionally used the LXX translation for their OT: not only do we believe that it probably represents an older tradition that was more or less abandoned by the Jews after the coming of Jesus Christ and the identification of Him as the promised Messiah (a claim which most Jews of His day rejected, mind you), but its readings support Christian -- specifically not Jewish -- understandings of prophecies that we believe to be told of Christ in the OT. For instance, there is a portion of the Psalms (I can't remember which one exactly, as the Psalms are numbered differently in Eastern and Western Christianity) that the LXX translated as "They pierce my hands and feet" (obviously in reference to Christ's crucifixion), but which is translated in the later Masoretic text (which was used as the standard OT source text in Protestant Bibles and some Catholic Bibles) as "There are lions at my hands and feet".

Which of these is a translation and which is a 'rewriting'? Obviously if you have an ambiguous source text based on features of the script used to write it, it can mean several things without any side being a 'rewriting' -- hence St. Justin's objection to the Jews of his time is that they had switched from one translation to another, and hence 'corrupted' the scriptures by their new, specifically Christ-excluding understanding...all without even one letter changing from the source text. (NB: There was once a belief that the Jews held a council called the Council of Jamnia specifically to address Christian claims by inserting the appropriate diacritical marks to standardize the reading of the text away from Christian readings, but I don't think most scholars actually believe that this was literal historical event anymore. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I think the balance in academia points to it being doubtful or fabricated. I do still hear it repeated in some churches sometimes -- even my own -- as it was a very popular belief that went unchallenged for about a century, and hence can be found in many fairly modern academically-minded books where it is taught as a literal historical event. As you can read at the link, it only began to be widely rejected in the 1960s.)


(*Long aside: the Ethiopian languages written in the Ge'ez script buck this trend by obligatorily marking vowels by means of various 'descenders' which are fused to the consonant itself, making every character a syllable, e.g., here's your name Mormon, for instance: ሞርሞን Mo-rɨ-mo-nɨ . In this transliteration, the ɨ vowel, which some prefer to transliterate as ə or ä -- I don't know that there is a standard -- represents a kind of central vowel which may be elided/not spoken, so as to produce "Mormon", rather than "Morimoni"; this is how the script can represent written consonant clusters like አምሐራ Amhara or ኦርቶዶክስ Ortodoks, which are written but not spoken like 'amɨhara and 'Orɨtodokɨsɨ. This is distinctly Christian development: before the acceptance of Christianity, the script hadn't had these fused vowel markers, and hence remained consonantal and non-syllabic, as Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac, etc. are.)



Because he wasn't doing the same thing. He was working with something that was already a translation into English, and perfectly understandable as it was, and he added other things in his 'translation' that were not based on anything in the source text, but on his own twisted belief.

It would be like (if I believed this; I do not -- this is an example only) if I inserted into the Biblical text, a propos of nothing, something that said "And then Jesus said 'Everyone needs to be Orthodox, because only Orthodox Christians get saved.'" That may very well reflect my own ecclesiological/soteriological belief, but if it is not in the source text I am working with, then I'm really just putting my beliefs in Jesus' mouth, aren't I?

Similar charges are in fact made by some Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians against Luther, for supposedly adding the word "alone" into the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, so that 3:28 would read in the German translation: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith"

The word "alone" apparently does not appear in any of the manuscripts of that text. so the charge is that was only added to support Luther's 'Sola Fide' doctrine. (I, not being RC or EO, don't know anything about this beyond that the controversy exists, and don't really care to weigh in on it, out of respect for our Protestant friends on this forum who are so often invaluable in the continuing conversation against non-Christian faiths.)



It depends on who you ask. And probably if you ask all of those same people what they think about Joseph Smith's additions to the Bible in his 'translation' work, they will all say it is completely unacceptable and rejected.

That ought to give you pause. :scratch::idea:

Thank you!! You put it into words I couldn't say! It is clear that JS had no understanding of the Hebrew language nor its complexity. Mormons take him at his word about everything and the meaning of his KJV words with Modern English interpretations are quite often just plain not accurate. They do not take into account the mind of the Hebrew and is one reason I do like to read the transliteration in the Mechanical Translation when I have questions about the original language. The meaning of words in the their original language, according to the way the people in that culture and time thought about a subject is important to know in order to get accuracy. I've countless debates with those that take Gen 6:2 to means fallen angels instead of what the original concept meant. I was lead to the Targums (in particular the Targum of Onkelos)which also helps understand what the Jews themselves taught about that verse and even when shown this, people still want to believe this means fallen angels having sex with human women. It means no such thing but you can not convince them otherwise.
The Mormons like to say that they believe the bible, as long as it is interpreted accurately---but what they mean is, as long as it agrees with JS and their prophets. Even when you show them what a word is in the original language, they refuse to acknowledge it if it is different than what he says. Accuracy is not what they want, but verification that their prophet was right---he isn't.
 
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He is the way

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I disagree. We obey because God loves us and gave us the faith and ability to love Him.

Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 John 4
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I'm very grateful for these truths!

Fearing God is not being afraid of Him. It's recognizing that our destiny is in His hands. He has the right to judge us.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You disagree with the Bible?:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:1 - 2)

1 NOW these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.


(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 13:4)

4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
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He is the way

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It's not my point. It's God's point, recorded in His Scriptures for all to read.
I don't doubt the scripture, we will all be accountable for our sins and the life we lead unless we repent and thereafter keep the commandments. That is also true for the dead. However they will have the gospel preached to them:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 
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Rescued One

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I am glad to see you believe that we must forgive or we will not be forgiven.

Each Christian has first received forgiveness from God, and as long as they forgive all that trespass against them, he will continue to forgive them. So his forgiveness is dependent upon our willingness to forgiveness. Right?

His forgiveness is dependent on His merciful will.

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
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Rescued One

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You disagree with the Bible?....

Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
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He is the way

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Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Who is ashamed of Christ except those who do not LOVE Him:

(New Testament | John 14:15 - 24)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
 
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Rescued One

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Who is ashamed of Christ except those who do not LOVE Him:....

I said absolutely nothing about anyone being ashamed of Christ.

Romans 9
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Why does one person follow Christ and another go his own way?

Philippians 2 explains:
"...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure,” God is behind a person's will.

Who we are is described in Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

John 10
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

May God's will be done.
 
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Peter1000

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How can you have clarification from the IV if you are not sure of what it says? That sounds pretty unclear.
Well, we are 90% sure that the wording has not been tampered with, but not 100% sure. So we are willing internally to read it for our own clarification, but we read and study the KJV, and we use this version when we discuss the gospel with non-members.
 
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