LDS LDS, I do not understand

Rescued One

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When and how did your Jesus become a god?

Peter1000 said:
This we both know: by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)

Jesus, God the Son, is the God that was seen by Israel. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt and the God that shepherded them into Israel and gave them that land. The God that spoke to all the OT prophets up to Malachi. 500 years later this God of Israel became a man and took on flesh.

That is why we can call him our Lord and our God. He is. He created us and he shepherds us, and he saved us.
How did the Mormon Jesus get his Exaltation?

Peter1000 said:
If becoming human was not to perfect His Godhood, why did Jesus retain his body of flesh and bone and spirit? You can only get a body of flesh and bone and spirit if you are born on earth.

So there was more to Jesus than being born to save us. He was born also to receive a body of flesh and bone and spirit, otherwise he could not be perfect. And if you are not perfect in all things, you cannot be God.
Elder Bednar shows how the brethren avoid difficult questions: No pre-prepared questions allowed

Is this not confusing?
 
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Jamesone5

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When and how did your Jesus become a god?

Peter1000 said:
This we both know: by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)

Jesus, God the Son, is the God that was seen by Israel. The God that brought Israel out of Egypt and the God that shepherded them into Israel and gave them that land. The God that spoke to all the OT prophets up to Malachi. 500 years later this God of Israel became a man and took on flesh.

That is why we can call him our Lord and our God. He is. He created us and he shepherds us, and he saved us.
How did the Mormon Jesus get his Exaltation?

Peter1000 said:
If becoming human was not to perfect His Godhood, why did Jesus retain his body of flesh and bone and spirit? You can only get a body of flesh and bone and spirit if you are born on earth.

So there was more to Jesus than being born to save us. He was born also to receive a body of flesh and bone and spirit, otherwise he could not be perfect. And if you are not perfect in all things, you cannot be God.
Elder Bednar shows how the brethren avoid difficult questions: No pre-prepared questions allowed

Is this not confusing?

And other confusing twist is where they say Christ is only Lord in the New Testament and God the Father is the One God.

Trying to always explain aways their inventory of Two Gods.
 
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Rescued One

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And other confusing twist is where they say Christ is only Lord in the New Testament and God the Father is the One God.

Trying to always explain aways their inventory of Two Gods.

They say there are three gods in the godhead. I hope Peter1000 or someone can explain the quotes in the OP.
 
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He is the way

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They say there are three gods in the godhead. I hope Peter1000 or someone can explain the quotes in the OP.
There are many Gods, and many Lords:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:3 - 7)

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:5)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 
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dzheremi

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There are many Gods, and many Lords:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:3 - 7)

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

How are you not getting out of this that it is making the point that as many others have their own gods (i.e., the 'gods of the nations'), there is only in reality one God -- the other gods are false/unreal? He literally writes that they are "called gods"!

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:5)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And why do you think both of these citations immediately pair this notion of being or becoming gods with the knowledge of good and evil? Might the reference to being as God be a shorthand for what it is actually talking about -- which is to say, having that knowledge of good and evil?

This was, after all, kept from our first parents Adam and Eve in the garden until they trespassed the command of God and ate from the tree of knowledge, as it is popularly called.

It would be absolutely out to lunch to equate gaining knowledge with anthropomorphically becoming gods, which is why the verses don't say any such thing. We do not become almighty creator gods. That is nowhere in the Bible.
 
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He is the way

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How are you not getting out of this that it is making the point that as many others have their own gods (i.e., the 'gods of the nations'), there is only in reality one God -- the other gods are false/unreal? He literally writes that they are "called gods"!



And why do you think both of these citations immediately pair this notion of being or becoming gods with the knowledge of good and evil? Might the reference to being as God be a shorthand for what it is actually talking about -- which is to say, having that knowledge of good and evil?

This was, after all, kept from our first parents Adam and Eve in the garden until they trespassed the command of God and ate from the tree of knowledge, as it is popularly called.

It would be absolutely out to lunch to equate gaining knowledge with anthropomorphically becoming gods, which is why the verses don't say any such thing. We do not become almighty creator gods. That is nowhere in the Bible.
For us there is one God and also one Lord. There are many Lords, how many Lords are there?
 
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dzheremi

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For us there is one God and also one Lord. There are many Lords, how many Lords are there?

One. Again, that is the point of the verse in question.

Christ is the Lord our God. Any other uses of "Lord" for others are as titular formalities, marks of respect, etc.
 
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He is the way

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OFF-TOPIC = Rude
(Typical Mormon tactic)
I thought this matched the topic since you asked "When and how did your Jesus become a god?" Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 10:33 - 36)

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If you did not want me to expound on how and when Jesus and the other Gods became Gods, why ask? Because that is what I was getting around to.
 
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Rescued One

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I thought this matched the topic since you asked "When and how did your Jesus become a god?" Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 10:33 - 36)


33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If you did not want me to expound on how and when Jesus and the other Gods became Gods, why ask? Because that is what I was getting around to.

1. OP:
"This we both know: by the time God the Father was ready to create the earth, Jesus, God the Son enjoyed his Godly status and was given power and authority to create the earth and all that is on the earth, and all that is above and below the earth. From the beginning of the earth, God the Father gave God the Son power to create everything.(John 1:1)"

Jesus was God before He had a human body? He said, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?"

2. OP:
"So there was more to Jesus than being born to save us. He was born also to receive a body of flesh and bone and spirit, otherwise he could not be perfect. And if you are not perfect in all things, you cannot be God."

Which statement is true? No. 1 or No. 2?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXODUS 34:14
For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.


 
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Andrewn

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Which statement is true? No. 1 or No. 2?
You really hit the nail on the head with this question. LDS believe that Jesus is Jehovah, which is wonderful. But they also believe Jesus was made perfect after His incarnation. This doesn't make sense unless they also believe that Jehovah is not God.

This is an example of the contradiction between their early and late scriptures. When you asked for an explanation, you received quoted material that doesn't answer the inquiry rather than a simple straight forward answer. As I said before, this has been typical in all the discussions.
 
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He is the way

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You really hit the nail on the head with this question. LDS believe that Jesus is Jehovah, which is wonderful. But they also believe Jesus was made perfect after His incarnation. This doesn't make sense unless they also believe that Jehovah is not God.

This is an example of the contradiction between their early and late scriptures. When you asked for an explanation, you received quoted material that doesn't answer the inquiry rather than a simple straight forward answer. As I said before, this has been typical in all the discussions.
That is what I was getting to. So this is the answer to the question. There are many Gods and they were Gods before the earth was:

(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 4:6 - 10)

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.
7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.
8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.
9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;
10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 30)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

All are eternal:

(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:18 - 28)

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
 
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Rescued One

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Per Mormonism, Godhood has to be earned. All Mormon gods have exalted physical bodies. They have eternal marriages.

King Follett Sermon:
...Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
The King Follett Sermon


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347
 
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He is the way

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Per Mormonism, Godhood has to be earned. All Mormon gods have exalted physical bodies. They have eternal marriages.

King Follett Sermon:
...Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.
The King Follett Sermon


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346-347
You said: "All Mormon gods have exalted physical bodies." I am wondering where you came up with this information.
 
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Jamesone5

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That is what I was getting to. So this is the answer to the question. There are many Gods and they were Gods before the earth was:

(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 4:6 - 10)

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.
7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.
8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.
9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;
10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 30)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

All are eternal:

(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:18 - 28)

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Shouldn't Mormons be worshiping all their GodS---especially in this rewrite of the Creation account in this fictitious book of Abraham?
 
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He is the way

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Shouldn't Mormons be worshiping all their GodS---especially in this rewrite of the Creation account in this fictitious book of Abraham?
No, we do not worship the other Gods, we worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ , and the Holy Ghost. That being said God the Father is our God and Father and the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
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Jamesone5

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No, we do not worship the other Gods, we worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ , and the Holy Ghost. That being said God the Father is our God and Father and the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yet you consider Jesus Christ a God---where did the aspect of One True God from the OT go?

Did Christ suddenly become a sub-God?

You say God is Love--which God?

The general confusion of who is God, when in Mormonism is astounding.
 
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dzheremi

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No, we do not worship the other Gods, we worship God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ , and the Holy Ghost.

That is only of this world however, is it not? There are other gods of other places in Mormonism, as I understand it.

That being said God the Father is our God and Father and the God and Father of Jesus Christ

I don't think any Christian would say otherwise, the crucial difference being that Christian theology allows for such a relationship without making Jesus into a 'sub-god', as jamesone5 put it, because all three Persons of the Holy Trinity are of the same essence. Since the Mormon godhead doesn't have that same internal relation, but instead is a group of three gods who are united in other ways that say nothing about them as gods that cannot be said about any other number of persons who are definitely not gods (being united in 'purpose' makes it sound like they are on a corporate team-building exercise...), you can't really say the same.

Your Jesus really is a 'sub-god', and your theology is irredeemably heretical. It's not only not Christian, but by the way it takes traditional Christian terminology such as 'God the Father', 'God the Son', 'Godhead' (etc.) and perverts it to mean other things and to refer to other gods, it is actually quite demonic.

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Again, how would God the Father be any other than the God of any observant religious Jew in the first century, or for that matter any Christian in the time since then until today (and after)? You are aware that in Christianity, Christ is incarnate as just such a Jew, and His disciples were the same, aren't you? So this is exactly the kind of message you would expect Him to commission Mary Magdalene to convey to the apostles, as she was the first one to see Him after His resurrection. It does not diminish His divinity in any way, as He is of that very God, the One God Who is. "Light from Light, True God from True God, of one essence (homoousios) with the Father..."

(It is also, as the early Church fathers rightly pointed out some 1,500 years or so before Joseph Smith was even born, an affirmation of the reality of Christ's incarnation as a man, which is not even something that it's clear that Mormonism can even affirm in any sense, given that Mormonism's preexistence idea claims that both Jesus and the Father have physical bodies, making the incarnation quite redundant...how can one be incarnate if they already have a body?)

That your religion cannot comprehend such a thing and rejects it in favor of something much, much worse results in a lot of violence being done to the scriptures, such that you cannot comprehend the very things that you cite, even as you claim to follow them. Lord have mercy.
 
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Yet you consider Jesus Christ a God---where did the aspect of One True God from the OT go?

Did Christ suddenly become a sub-God?

You say God is Love--which God?

The general confusion of who is God, when in Mormonism is astounding.
The one true God is God the Father:

(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Do you know both of them?
 
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