LDS LDS: Going about to Establish Their Own Righteousness

dzheremi

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We are not a bunch of cowards that speak form both sides of our mouth and there are NO soul compromising doctrines in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. We teach LOVING Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments.

Do you have any response that isn't "Nuh uh"?

Disagreeing with you about the meaning of scriptures does not mean that someone is Biblically ignorant.

Alright then. Since you recognize this, I take you'll stop posting literally everything you ever post, since all of your replies are built on the presupposition that you only need to post blocks of text (context and analysis-free) from the Bible as though we've never seen it before, and this will magically make Mormon teachings correct?

Or are you totally fine with being a massive hypocrite in the name of your religion?
 
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He is the way

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Do you have any response that isn't "Nuh uh"?



Alright then. Since you recognize this, I take you'll stop posting literally everything you ever post, since all of your replies are built on the presupposition that you only need to post blocks of text (context and analysis-free) from the Bible as though we've never seen it before, and this will magically make Mormon teachings correct?

Or are you totally fine with being a massive hypocrite in the name of your religion?
You make a lot of baseless insinuations about members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. You come across as being arrogant and pugnacious instead of kind and loving. I use the scriptures a lot because Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 15:4 - 8)

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I applaud the IOCC as one of the top charities in the world. I also commend the Catholic charities and their work. Actually I am grateful for all of the good work that people are doing to help one another because that is what Jesus taught. I love the commandments and my desire is to have Christ as my example.
 
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dzheremi

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You make a lot of baseless insinuations about members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. You come across as being arrogant and pugnacious instead of kind and loving.

I think you're conflating how much I disagree with Mormonism with how much your posting style rubs me the wrong way. Fair enough, since the answer to both is "very much", but they're still not the same thing. I have nothing negative to say about Ironhold's posting style, for instance (other than its reliance on personal internet anecdote), as he makes actual arguments. Sure, they're bad arguments, usually, but they're there. And last I've seen, he's still a Mormon, so I don't think this is as much about some inherent bias against "members of the [Mormon religion]" as you'd probably like it to be.

I use the scriptures a lot because Jesus said:

(New Testament | John 15:4 - 8)

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

I applaud the IOCC as one of the top charities in the world. I also commend the Catholic charities and their work. Actually I am grateful for all of the good work that people are doing to help one another because that is what Jesus taught. I love the commandments and my desire is to have Christ as my example.

I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I would be surprised if anyone on this subforum ever read one of your posts with disjointed, out of context quotes in lieu of arguments and connected them somehow with your love of non-Mormon charities. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you appreciate what Christians are doing in the world, I just don't really see the connection between the quoting of the scriptures and your appreciation of the work of others, especially since usually your quotes seem to be employed to remind people about love and commandments, as though none of us have ever heard of either.
 
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He is the way

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I think you're conflating how much I disagree with Mormonism with how much your posting style rubs me the wrong way. Fair enough, since the answer to both is "very much", but they're still not the same thing. I have nothing negative to say about Ironhold's posting style, for instance (other than its reliance on personal internet anecdote), as he makes actual arguments. Sure, they're bad arguments, usually, but they're there. And last I've seen, he's still a Mormon, so I don't think this is as much about some inherent bias against "members of the [Mormon religion]" as you'd probably like it to be.



I don't want to speak for anyone else here, but I would be surprised if anyone on this subforum ever read one of your posts with disjointed, out of context quotes in lieu of arguments and connected them somehow with your love of non-Mormon charities. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you appreciate what Christians are doing in the world, I just don't really see the connection between the quoting of the scriptures and your appreciation of the work of others, especially since usually your quotes seem to be employed to remind people about love and commandments, as though none of us have ever heard of either.
You say that you disagree very much with the doctrine of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints yet I have seen very little of your reasoning of the basic tenants of our doctrine. You seem to go overboard on things that have nothing to do with Christ's gospel. Christ's true gospel is all about Love, kindness, charity, faith, thankfulness, honesty, patience, humility, chastity, purity, and goodness. Instead of this I see contention, and misinformation. Perhaps there are people who find Christ's gospel boring. We also know that evil works and sins are condemned by God. The topic of this thread is not about the gospel. God does not make people righteous by stopping them from sinning. Job was righteous because he feared God and eschewed evil. Abraham obeyed God and it was accounted as righteousness. Righteousness comes through obedience.
 
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dzheremi

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You say that you disagree very much with the doctrine of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints yet I have seen very little of your reasoning of the basic tenants of our doctrine.

Maybe you weren't around earlier when I spent approximately 700 years trying to explain to Peter1000 how Christianity has traditionally defined the Holy Trinity and Trinitarian doctrine, or talked with Mormons about the relative place of the other two works in their 'triple combination', or tried to get to the bottom of some finer points of LDS theology by looking at the text of some Mormon hymns, or shared videos comparing Mormonism and other new religions, or highlighting LDS leaders lying to people, etc., etc.

Or maybe you're just not paying attention. I don't know. Either way, I don't owe someone who doesn't advance any arguments of their own any semblance of an in-depth discussion that, so far as you've demonstrated, would only be faux-answered with more mangling of scriptures, or, failing that, a restatement of the claim of the poster put in the framework of "claiming X doesn't mean Mormonism isn't true" or "No, we're not whatever you just posted."

You seem to go overboard on things that have nothing to do with Christ's gospel.

As you are free to believe. Of course, the Christ Who is worshiped in Christianity is not the same as the Christ of Mormonism (see your own former prophet Hinckley on that), who I assume is totally fine with your abuse of words and ideas like love, kindness, charity, faith, thankfulness, etc. so as to use these very nice words and concepts to prop up the Mormon religion, which denies the true Christ.

Sooo...am I supposed to care that the false god of a false religion would not be happy with me for not adhering to that false religion's way of being? I'll freely admit I could be a lot 'nicer', in the social sense, when it comes to objecting to Mormonism here and pointing out the utter falsity and inadequacy of Mormon arguments and apologetics, but I don't really see anything good from participating in a sort of 'nice-off' with the religion whose members are most famously nice, and who use that "golly gee, guys, can't we all just focus on what we share?" Leave It To Beaver quasi-theology in an attempt to cover over or draw focus from very real, important, and dangerous differences between Mormonism and Christianity that not only make me disagree with Mormonism, but that make Mormonism disagree with Christianity even while it attempts to position itself as the proper replacement/restoration of it.

As I've been saying since I first started discussing things with Mormons here several years ago, if you guys would simply stop presenting yourselves as a kind of Christianity, there would be no issue. Of course, that will never happen, because your religion cannot live without the Bible and the characters and themes that it co-opts from it in order to draw members away from actual Christian churches to itself, but hey...that's always going on...from the very first of the proto-Mormons in c. 150s-170s (the Montanists) until today, there's always going to be some wacky 'new light and knowledge' cult that thinks it has what everyone else doesn't but is really just deluded. Ho hum.

Instead of this I see contention, and misinformation.

Well I'm sorry, but my own religion does not tell me that "contention is of the devil" or whatever the popular Mormon phrase exactly is. We're not to quarrel over words to no good end (2 Timothy 2:14), but I think everyone here who is a Christian would probably recognize that getting Mormons to stop misrepresenting their religion as Christianity when it isn't is a very good goal.

As to 'misinformation' sorry you don't like reading from ex-Mormons (where I get my information on your religion from, since there's so much in it that you guys won't talk about because it's supposedly 'too scared' or whatever) all the things you'd rather not focus on in favor of your cheapened 'LOVE' fixation, but some of us actually care about the fact that ~16 million Mormons (including you) are being lied to about the origins and history of their own religion (and ours), and are not afraid to go places with that you'd rather we not.

Perhaps there are people who find Christ's gospel boring.

... :|

We also know that evil works and sins are condemned by God.

Is someone suggesting otherwise?

The topic of this thread is not about the gospel.

I'm pretty sure that the gospels have plenty to say about trying to establish your own righteousness. See, for instance, many of Christ's sayings directed towards the pharisees.

God does not make people righteous by stopping them from sinning.

Wait a minute...so who does? Do people just decide to be really, really good, and really, really nice, and really, really 'loving', and then poof -- just like that, sin gone forever?

I don't think that's how it works. In fact, I know that's not how it works, because there were righteous people who lived before Christ, and yet Christ still had to come to fulfill the law, and to give Himself up unto death to put to death death itself.

Job was righteous because he feared God and eschewed evil. Abraham obeyed God and it was accounted as righteousness. Righteousness comes through obedience.

From St. John Chrysostom's 17th homily on Romans, which covers the relevant verses alluded to here, we can get a good sense of how the early Church actually viewed concepts like these. I've bolded the portion of the sermon that you should pay attention to:

"And going about," he says, "to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And these things he says to show, that it was from a petulancy and love of power that they erred, rather than from ignorance, and that not even this righteousness from the deeds of the Law did they establish. (Matt. xxi. 38; John. xii. 19, John. xxi, 42.) For saying "going about to establish" is what one would do to show this. And in plain words indeed he has not stated this (for he has not said, that they fell short of both righteousnesses), but he has given a hint of it in a very judicious manner, and with the wisdom so befitting him. For if they are still "going about" to establish that, it is very plain that they have not yet established it. If they have not submitted themselves to this, they have fallen short of this also. But he calls it their "own righteousness," either because the Law was no longer of force, or because it was one of trouble and toil. But this he calls God's righteousness, that from faith, because it comes entirely from the grace from above, and because men are justified in this case, not by labors, but by the gift of God. But they that evermore resisted the Holy Ghost, and vexatiously tried to be justified by the Law, came not over to the faith. But as they did not come over to the faith, nor receive the righteousness thereupon ensuing, and were not able to be justified by the Law either, they were thrown out of all resources.​

+++

So, according to the good saint (who is no lightweight; there's a reason why he is venerated across basically all of Christianity that still maintains some conception of saints, and the liturgical text attributed to him is the standard liturgy of the second largest communion in all of Christianity), why is "God's righteousness" considered something other than the righteousness that these people were trying to establish? Because what is called God's righteousness comes not from justification by the Law, but via faith, from above as a gift from God (as it's His). And those who will not accept that, and instead make it about what they themselves can establish by their own labors, will find that they cannot be justified by the law, and are to be classed as among those who resist the Holy Spirit.

Pretty ironic given your religion's emphasis on 'the spirit' in receiving revelations, testimonies, confirmation, etc.

And St. John Chrysostom is far from the only saint to have thought this way, as Ps.-Clement quotes Ezekiel in reminding us in his 'second epistle' (still believed to be composed around the same time that the actual St. Clement of Rome composed his only epistle, c. 95 AD) that "If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity", so then what chance do we have to save ourselves by our own righteousness "if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children"? And, as if anticipating Mormon objections that "you can't just not do anything!" from 1,925 years in the past, Ps. Clement ends the chapter by asking "Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?"

So there ya go: No "works salvation", and also no "be a lazy spiritual slob" (neither of which Christians actually believe, in the main; Mormons I'm not so sure about given your "after all that you can do" idea).

So now what? Now what possible reason could you have to continue to beat us over the head metaphorically with the foam mallet of the Mormon Jesus's commandments regime?
 
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Rescued One

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All cults have rules. Some borrow what they like from the Bible. Christians are interested in the word of God, not the word of Joseph Smith and other false prophets.

The question becomes, "Are we worshipping the True God and obeying Him instead of some man who claims to be God's spokesperson and wants people to follow him becaue he said he saw God in the woods near his home?"

“If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.670

So when we quote the Bible, "If you love me. keep my commandments," Whose commandments are we talking about? A false prophet's, a false god's, or a false christ's?

Psalm 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalm 119
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
 
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Rescued One

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dzheremi posted:
From St. John Chrysostom's 17th homily on Romans, which covers the relevant verses alluded to here, we can get a good sense of how the early Church actually viewed concepts like these. I've bolded the portion of the sermon that you should pay attention to:

"And going about," he says, "to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And these things he says to show, that it was from a petulancy and love of power that they erred, rather than from ignorance, and that not even this righteousness from the deeds of the Law did they establish. (Matt. xxi. 38; John. xii. 19, John. xxi, 42.) For saying "going about to establish" is what one would do to show this. And in plain words indeed he has not stated this (for he has not said, that they fell short of both righteousnesses), but he has given a hint of it in a very judicious manner, and with the wisdom so befitting him. For if they are still "going about" to establish that, it is very plain that they have not yet established it. If they have not submitted themselves to this, they have fallen short of this also. But he calls it their "own righteousness," either because the Law was no longer of force, or because it was one of trouble and toil. But this he calls God's righteousness, that from faith, because it comes entirely from the grace from above, and because men are justified in this case, not by labors, but by the gift of God. But they that evermore resisted the Holy Ghost, and vexatiously tried to be justified by the Law, came not over to the faith. But as they did not come over to the faith, nor receive the righteousness thereupon ensuing, and were not able to be justified by the Law either, they were thrown out of all resources.

LDS: Going about to Establish Their Own Righteousness

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A marvelous response!
 
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He is the way

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Maybe you weren't around earlier when I spent approximately 700 years trying to explain to Peter1000 how Christianity has traditionally defined the Holy Trinity and Trinitarian doctrine, or talked with Mormons about the relative place of the other two works in their 'triple combination', or tried to get to the bottom of some finer points of LDS theology by looking at the text of some Mormon hymns, or shared videos comparing Mormonism and other new religions, or highlighting LDS leaders lying to people, etc., etc.
Lets address this first: "Maybe you weren't around earlier when I spent approximately 700 years trying to explain to Peter1000 how Christianity has traditionally defined the Holy Trinity and Trinitarian doctrine, or talked with Mormons about the relative place of the other two works in their 'triple combination', or tried to get to the bottom of some finer points of LDS theology by looking at the text of some Mormon hymns, or shared videos comparing Mormonism and other new religions, or highlighting LDS leaders lying to people, etc., etc.:

First I do not understand how you cling onto the man made doctrine of the trinity. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of Jesus Christ and absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation. The Bible teaches that salvation has everything to do with obedience and nothing to do with the man made Nicene Creed. Jesus Christ let us know how He and the Father are one. I have gone over this umpteen times and people still refuse to believe what Jesus said.

What on earth does "relative place of the other two works in their 'triple combination" have to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? As far as I can tell it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the gospel or salvation. As I said before salvation is about obedience and NOTHING else. I believe that the scriptures I posted prove my point very well. But then you don't seem to agree with the scriptures I post.

Your disapproval of our hymns has NOTHING to do with salvation either. Why not concentrate on salvation through repentance, baptism, and LOVING Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments? That is the WHOLE duty of man. I know that God is NOT a respecter of persons and has provided a way for all of His children to be saved. All children who die under the age of accountability are saved. It is erroneous to believe that a three year old is saved only if they have been baptized. Jesus said otherwise.
 
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He is the way

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As you are free to believe. Of course, the Christ Who is worshiped in Christianity is not the same as the Christ of Mormonism (see your own former prophet Hinckley on that), who I assume is totally fine with your abuse of words and ideas like love, kindness, charity, faith, thankfulness, etc. so as to use these very nice words and concepts to prop up the Mormon religion, which denies the true Christ.
Now we address this again. Your man made trinity is wrong. The concept of the trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible and the word trinity is absent from the Bible. Jesus has explained how He and the Father (His God) are one. Therefore I can understand how God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one.
 
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He is the way

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I'm pretty sure that the gospels have plenty to say about trying to establish your own righteousness. See, for instance, many of Christ's sayings directed towards the pharisees.



Wait a minute...so who does? Do people just decide to be really, really good, and really, really nice, and really, really 'loving', and then poof -- just like that, sin gone forever?

I don't think that's how it works. In fact, I know that's not how it works, because there were righteous people who lived before Christ, and yet Christ still had to come to fulfill the law, and to give Himself up unto death to put to death death itself.



From St. John Chrysostom's 17th homily on Romans, which covers the relevant verses alluded to here, we can get a good sense of how the early Church actually viewed concepts like these. I've bolded the portion of the sermon that you should pay attention to:

"And going about," he says, "to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And these things he says to show, that it was from a petulancy and love of power that they erred, rather than from ignorance, and that not even this righteousness from the deeds of the Law did they establish. (Matt. xxi. 38; John. xii. 19, John. xxi, 42.) For saying "going about to establish" is what one would do to show this. And in plain words indeed he has not stated this (for he has not said, that they fell short of both righteousnesses), but he has given a hint of it in a very judicious manner, and with the wisdom so befitting him. For if they are still "going about" to establish that, it is very plain that they have not yet established it. If they have not submitted themselves to this, they have fallen short of this also. But he calls it their "own righteousness," either because the Law was no longer of force, or because it was one of trouble and toil. But this he calls God's righteousness, that from faith, because it comes entirely from the grace from above, and because men are justified in this case, not by labors, but by the gift of God. But they that evermore resisted the Holy Ghost, and vexatiously tried to be justified by the Law, came not over to the faith. But as they did not come over to the faith, nor receive the righteousness thereupon ensuing, and were not able to be justified by the Law either, they were thrown out of all resources.​
Now to address this: Why do you think Jesus used the term "SIN NO MORE". Does no one understand this? Why did Jesus say if you love me keep my commandments? Who understands this? What about Jesus being the author of salvation for the obedient? Is this hard to understand? We are instructed over and over and over the importance of keeping the commandments. Is the Bible wrong. Can cherry picking the Bible change the meaning and importance of obedience? If so you are NOT seeing the big picture and do not understand God's word. God does not prevent us from sinning, we do. We are responsible for our actions and choices. It is our DUTY to be obedient and do God's will and we are still unprofitable servants after we do all that we can do. Without the atonement we would have NO hope what so ever.
 
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dzheremi

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First I do not understand how you cling onto the man made doctrine of the trinity.

The Holy Trinity is not a man-made doctrine. This is how God chose to reveal Himself to us, the Christian Church, and how He taught us to worship Him. By refusing to worship the Holy Trinity, you're claiming to know God better than He knows Himself, and criticizing His work in the world and His revelation to His people. Good luck with that. I'm never going to join you or any other God-deniers in that just because you're convinced it's a "man-made doctrine", not a matter of God Himself. You're quite simply mistaken in that. Gravely so.

It has nothing to do with the doctrine of Jesus Christ and absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation. The Bible teaches that salvation has everything to do with obedience and nothing to do with the man made Nicene Creed. Jesus Christ let us know how He and the Father are one. I have gone over this umpteen times and people still refuse to believe what Jesus said.

We wrote the Bible (surely you've heard of the Gospel of St. Mark, who founded my particular Church, or of St. Paul, who preached with St. Peter in Antioch from which the Syriac-speaking churches descend, etc.?); I think we know better what it says and means than you do.

What on earth does "relative place of the other two works in their 'triple combination" have to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? As far as I can tell it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the gospel or salvation.

I made a thread a long time ago asking about the relative place of the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price next to the Book of Mormon, since I know the BOM is the one that people are asked to pray about and such, while the other two are not.

I 100% agree with you that these writings have nothing to do with the gospel or salvation.

As I said before salvation is about obedience and NOTHING else.

Salvation is in Christ and NOTHING else. Our good works and obedience, even as they may testify to an inward disposition that has accepted Christ, are not salvific in themselves, or else (again) there would be plenty of examples from history of righteous men and women who could have saved themselves and their posterity by their righteousness. And yet as the already-quoted section of Ezekiel tells us, that is not possible.

I believe that the scriptures I posted prove my point very well.

I guess, if you're just going to ignore how plenty of scriptures you don't post contradict your point, because it's wrong.

But then you don't seem to agree with the scriptures I post.

No, I don't agree with you and the Mormon misinterpretation of the scriptures. That's really not the same thing as disagreeing with the scriptures themselves.

Your disapproval of our hymns has NOTHING to do with salvation either.

I never said it did. My point in drawing your attention to all the interactions I've already had with Mormons was to answer the charge that you don't see me delving deeply into your doctrine or whatever. From the looks of things, I think you were probably mostly not here when that was still happening. Since then, with the exit of less obviously manipulative posters like Jane_Doe, there have been a good number of Christian posters who have seen the light and mostly avoided discussing things with Mormons. As for me, I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to be doing when there are still Mormons here such as yourself who use Christian Forums as a springboard for airing their blasphemous thoughts against the Holy Trinity, the One God, but of course I'm not just going to say "Oh, well, if that's how you feel about it, I guess I'll focus on something else you'd rather talk about instead" or something. This is the stuff of God. If you're going to be Christian, you need to accept at least the bare minimum of what is historically required to be considered within the Christian fold. If not, you are free to leave. What won't be happening, however, is you spouting off a bunch of ignorant nonsense and nobody here saying anything about how it's ignorant nonsense.

Why not concentrate on salvation through repentance, baptism, and LOVING Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments?

See above. You can't get there from where you are. You have no foundation. And I'll believe anyone loves Christ when they worship Him as even the most doubting of His apostles did ("My Lord and My God!"...or was St. Thomas following 'man made doctrine' by calling Jesus God here?)

That is the WHOLE duty of man.

If that is the case I would be even more worried for Mormons than usual, because you recognize a true principle but not true faith itself, which is very dangerous. You see, Christ told the Samaritan woman that the Father seeks those who worship Him in spirit and truth, but Mormonism's theological distinctives (i.e., the things that separate it from Christianity on a theological level) reveal neither truth in them nor the Spirit of Truth behind them, meaning that Mormons may be doing perfectly well in 'following the commandments' (thinking that by following your latter-day prophets and their revelations you are conforming to the Biblical faith), but because again the content of the things you are following is wildly at variance with Christianity, it actually brings them further and further away from the Christian faith that is found in the scriptures.

This is why I don't ignore the very really differences between Christianity and Mormonism in favor of discussing things that you put under some inoffensive, Christian-ese sounding label, like "following the commandments", "loving Christ", etc. We're not talking about the same things when we say these things. And that can't be ignored. I don't 'go along to get along' with people and movements I fundamentally disagree with.

I know that God is NOT a respecter of persons and has provided a way for all of His children to be saved.

Yes. And the way's name is Jesus Christ, the incarnate only-begotten Son of God.

All children who die under the age of accountability are saved.

This 'age of accountability' thing is something you Mormons inherited from the medieval Roman Catholic Church, surely through some kind of Protestant intermediary. This is not a feature of earlier forms of Christianity, hence why you don't find it in the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, or Nestorian churches (all of which baptize infants and children under whatever age the age of accountability is supposed to be).

It is erroneous to believe that a three year old is saved only if they have been baptized.

Where is this coming from? I don't recall bringing up this subject at all in this thread or in any of the other threads I mentioned in my reply. Who is claiming this?
 
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He is the way

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You said: "Salvation is in Christ and NOTHING else. Our good works and obedience, even as they may testify to an inward disposition that has accepted Christ, are not salvific in themselves, or else (again) there would be plenty of examples from history of righteous men and women who could have saved themselves and their posterity by their righteousness. And yet as the already-quoted section of Ezekiel tells us, that is not possible."

Salvation is by obedience:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The atonement is for the obedient:

(New Testament | John 14:21 - 24)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Does no one pay attention to these scriptures??????
 
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dzheremi

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Now we address this again. Your man made trinity is wrong. The concept of the trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible and the word trinity is absent from the Bible. Jesus has explained how He and the Father (His God) are one. Therefore I can understand how God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one.

I have some news for you, friend: the Christian faith and the Christian Church predates the writing and (especially) canonization of the NT.

That being the case, it has not been the traditional approach of Christianity to argue from the presence of absence of a particular word in the Biblical text. In fact, even though he undoubtedly fell into heresy at some point (having left Christianity to embrace Montanism sometime in the latter half of his life), I can't think of any better way to put it than the early Latin Christian writer Tertullian put it here, in his De Praescriptione Haereticorum (which is before his conversion to Montanism c. 207):

"Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. But even if a discussion from the Scriptures should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, (yet) the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: “With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong. From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule, by which men become Christians?” For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions."

+++

In other words, if all sides can argue from the scriptures, then it's not enough to point out that the scriptures say X, Y, and Z. You have to actually look at what the person is trying to claim that the scriptures mean.

When any Christians who have even the barest understanding of what Christianity is actually about do that with regard to the Mormon understandings of the scriptures, they find those understandings to be greatly at variance with the faith -- hence people belonging to churches that don't necessarily agree with each other in every particular matter (like everyone in this thread) can all come together to agree that Mormonism is false.
 
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He is the way

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You said: "We wrote the Bible (surely you've heard of the Gospel of St. Mark, who founded my particular Church, or of St. Paul, who preached with St. Peter in Antioch from which the Syriac-speaking churches descend, etc.?); I think we know better what it says and means than you do."

However, Jesus was completely clear about how He and the Father are one. The trinity is NOT it:

(New Testament | John 17:11 - 23)

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
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dzheremi

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Now to address this: Why do you think Jesus used the term "SIN NO MORE".

Because sin is bad...? :scratch: And also she was about to be stoned for breaking the law and committing a sin, and He stopped that from happening, so obviously if she doesn't want to be in that situation anymore, she shouldn't sin anymore.

But notice: was she able to free herself from the consequences of her actions by simply deciding not to do them anymore? No. Christ had to come between her and those who were going to stone her. So it's not quite as a simple as "hey don't do that anymore" (although, yeah...hey, don't do that anymore...whatever it is :confused:), as though it is within our own will to simply decide that we're done sinning now that we've been reminded that it's bad. Sadly, the reality of life is that sin is bigger than any one person's or people's collective ability to handle it. That's why Christ came and saved us. If we could do it ourselves, we literally wouldn't be here right now, in the world that actually is, having this conversation. But we respect God's prerogatives, that He sent His only-begotten Son to save us because we need salvation. Because we can't just do it ourselves, and simply hearing or reading "Don't do that anymore" is not the same as actually not sinning anymore.

Does no one understand this?

You tell me. You seem to think you understand it better than others.

Why did Jesus say if you love me keep my commandments? Who understands this? What about Jesus being the author of salvation for the obedient? Is this hard to understand? We are instructed over and over and over the importance of keeping the commandments. Is the Bible wrong. Can cherry picking the Bible change the meaning and importance of obedience?

Again, you tell you me. You do nothing but cherry pick the Bible all day long. Physician, heal thyself.

If so you are NOT seeing the big picture and do not understand God's word. God does not prevent us from sinning, we do. We are responsible for our actions and choices. It is our DUTY to be obedient and do God's will and we are still unprofitable servants after we do all that we can do. Without the atonement we would have NO hope what so ever.

Okay.

I hope being able to rant about how only you understand the Bible properly has made you feel better. I still disagree with Mormonism.
 
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dzheremi

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Alright, alright...enough of this nonsense, HITW. I can see you're writing additional replies to my replies even as I continue to go through your original replies where you ask me a bunch of questions. I can't keep up with this level of ridiculousness, so instead of continuing to try to discuss things with you, I'm going to lay things out as bluntly as possible, and then I'm going to ignore you, as I probably should've already been doing this whole time. Lord knows with all the other things going on in the world, neither of us need to be sitting here spinning our wheels when we know already that the other person is just not going to agree.

Neither you nor any person nor any movement will ever get me to stop believing in and worshiping the Holy and Perfect uncreated and undivided Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- the One God there is -- in favor of anything else. It is not a matter of man-made anything, but again a matter of how God has chosen to reveal Himself to the Christian people. It does not matter even the smallest possible bit who agrees or disagrees with God's revelation of Himself to mankind, just as it did not matter even earlier than this when Arius, Nestorius, and others of your ilk decided that they didn't like this or that part of Christian theology. I honestly can't think of anything I care less about than making Christianity more compatible with the lost and confused ravings of heretics such as these and latter-day heretics such as Joseph Smith and every other poor, sad person who has followed in their footsteps. Lord have mercy on all of them, and indeed on all of us.

O come let us worship, the Holy Trinity -- the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. +
We the Christian people, for He is our true God.


[from the introduction to the verses of the cymbals]
 
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He is the way

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Because sin is bad...? :scratch: And also she was about to be stoned for breaking the law and committing a sin, and He stopped that from happening, so obviously if she doesn't want to be in that situation anymore, she shouldn't sin anymore.

But notice: was she able to free herself from the consequences of her actions by simply deciding not to do them anymore? No. Christ had to come between her and those who were going to stone her. So it's not quite as a simple as "hey don't do that anymore" (although, yeah...hey, don't do that anymore...whatever it is :confused:), as though it is within our own will to simply decide that we're done sinning now that we've been reminded that it's bad. Sadly, the reality of life is that sin is bigger than any one person's or people's collective ability to handle it. That's why Christ came and saved us. If we could do it ourselves, we literally wouldn't be here right now, in the world that actually is, having this conversation. But we respect God's prerogatives, that He sent His only-begotten Son to save us because we need salvation. Because we can't just do it ourselves, and simply hearing or reading "Don't do that anymore" is not the same as actually not sinning anymore.

You tell me. You seem to think you understand it better than others.

Again, you tell you me. You do nothing but cherry pick the Bible all day long. Physician, heal thyself.

Okay.

I hope being able to rant about how only you understand the Bible properly has made you feel better. I still disagree with Mormonism.
The woman was not the only one that Jesus said to sin no more:

(New Testament | John 5:13 - 17)

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The Bible is clear that we should fear God enough to keep His commandments. And you are right we should not be hearers only but doers of the word.
 
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Rescued One

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Mormons think their deeds make them more righteous than others even if others are Mormons.:thumbsdown:

“Marriage is the grandest, most glorious, and most exalting principle connected with the gospel.It is that which the Lord holds in reserve for those who become his sons and daughters; all others are servants only, even if they gain salvation. They do not become members of the household of our Father and our God, if they refuse to receive the celestial covenant of marriage.”
How a Cult Works
 
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