LDS LDS: Going about to Establish Their Own Righteousness

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
D&C 20:32. What does it mean to fall from grace?

Elder Theodore M. Burton said that this scripture, as he understood it, "means that Jesus Christ is kind and merciful to us when we serve him with our whole hearts, but not any of us can take refuge in past righteousness or service. It also means that there is a possibility that any one of us can fall out of good standing, even those who have already achieved a certain degree of righteousness.
Therefore, we need to be on our constant guard, each of us, that we not allow ourselves to fall into habits of carelessness in our faith, in our prayers, or in our various Church activities or responsibilities. It is for this reason that I am resolving to live closer to God each day and to follow his chosen prophets and apostles more diligently that I have ever done in the past." (In Conference Report, Oct. 1973, p. 153; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, p. 116.)
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, copyright 1981, p. 41

D&C 21:4–5. Whose Words Are the Saints to Receive As If from the Lord’s “Own Mouth”?


President Joseph Fielding Smith answered that question in this manner: “There has been much speculation in relation to the statement of the Lord to the Prophet Joseph Smith: ‘For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ This is the word which the Lord gave to Israel in relation to Moses. It is just as true in the case of any other person who is sustained as the mouthpiece of the Almighty. Later, in speaking of his inspired servants, the Lord said: ‘And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.’ (D. & C. 68:4.) In this dispensation the same characteristics are shown by the people as were in ancient times. We are more inclined to accept as the word of the Lord something which was uttered in some former dispensation, but look with critical eye and unbelief upon that which the Lord delivers today through his chosen servants. Yet the word of the Lord is very clear on this matter. Let us not lose sight of the word of the Lord, that by hearkening to his chosen servant—and this is true whether it is Joseph Smith or some other President of the Church—‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.’” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:107–8.)


D&C 21:5. Why Might It Require Patience and Faith to Sustain the Lord’s Prophets?

“The only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.)
Section 21, “His Word Ye Shall Receive, As If from Mine Own Mouth”


BIBLE:

Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Titus 3
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman

Jamesone5

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2019
1,758
318
Basin
✟97,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
D&C 20:32. What does it mean to fall from grace?

Elder Theodore M. Burton said that this scripture, as he understood it, "means that Jesus Christ is kind and merciful to us when we serve him with our whole hearts, but not any of us can take refuge in past righteousness or service. It also means that there is a possibility that any one of us can fall out of good standing, even those who have already achieved a certain degree of righteousness.
Therefore, we need to be on our constant guard, each of us, that we not allow ourselves to fall into habits of carelessness in our faith, in our prayers, or in our various Church activities or responsibilities. It is for this reason that I am resolving to live closer to God each day and to follow his chosen prophets and apostles more diligently that I have ever done in the past." (In Conference Report, Oct. 1973, p. 153; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, p. 116.)
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, copyright 1981, p. 41

D&C 21:4–5. Whose Words Are the Saints to Receive As If from the Lord’s “Own Mouth”?


President Joseph Fielding Smith answered that question in this manner: “There has been much speculation in relation to the statement of the Lord to the Prophet Joseph Smith: ‘For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ This is the word which the Lord gave to Israel in relation to Moses. It is just as true in the case of any other person who is sustained as the mouthpiece of the Almighty. Later, in speaking of his inspired servants, the Lord said: ‘And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.’ (D. & C. 68:4.) In this dispensation the same characteristics are shown by the people as were in ancient times. We are more inclined to accept as the word of the Lord something which was uttered in some former dispensation, but look with critical eye and unbelief upon that which the Lord delivers today through his chosen servants. Yet the word of the Lord is very clear on this matter. Let us not lose sight of the word of the Lord, that by hearkening to his chosen servant—and this is true whether it is Joseph Smith or some other President of the Church—‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.’” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:107–8.)


D&C 21:5. Why Might It Require Patience and Faith to Sustain the Lord’s Prophets?

“The only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.)
Section 21, “His Word Ye Shall Receive, As If from Mine Own Mouth”


BIBLE:

Romans 10

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Titus 3
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I am reminded by your post of the CONTROL the LDS Church had over me for 40 years, by some of the things you listed.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,500
13,648
✟426,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Yikes. There's also stuff like this quote from Pres. George Q. Cannon:


Apparently there's no Celestial Kingdom for you without these leaders and their 'constant revelation'. Kinda weird that this is how they put things while also chiding Christian churches like the Catholics and certain Protestants for having paid clergy or worship leaders. Like that's the most awful thing ever because it elevates certain people and turns serving the Lord into a job, but at the same time if you don't have or don't follow these certain Mormon people, you can't get the 'highest glory' or whatever. Huh.


The Mormon idea of 'loyalty' (from this Improvement Era essay) is, as usual, a perversion of a good thing in service of Mormonism itself. This stuff about 'idealizing officers' and making supporting them a form of blessing oneself...it's just nuts.

We don't have 'sustaining' church leaders in my Church (beyond offering an "Axios!" at a priest's ordination or whatever, which isn't a vote...priests are usually chosen by the community from among the community anyway, so it would be redundant), but we do hold them accountable to the same standard of the faith as we are accountable to. I think I've told this story before, but in case I haven't: the Coptic Orthodox diocese to which I used to belong would send us priests from Egypt as a 'gift' of sorts every year for the Holy Week services (the week leading up to Easter, which is filled with special, very long services to mark the end of Great Lent and the preparation for the resurrection of Christ), because the Holy Week services are something extra-special in the life of the Church and a lot of Coptic people who might not show up very often would show up for them, and the people liked having services in Arabic then because it reminded them of being in Egypt again, of the Church as they grew up in it (in the USA, of course, ~90%+ of any given service is going to be in English). Well one year they sent us a priest, I thankfully cannot remember his name, whom some people in the congregation (not me) observed scrolling through his cell phone inside the altar during the liturgy! That's a big no-no; very disrespectful! The people suffered through the remainder of the week with him out of politeness (and because there wasn't a 'back up' priest available to lead the services, since our normal priests were shared with congregations in nearby Arizona, so they were at their own churches over there, celebrating Holy Week with their other congregations), but as soon as they saw him off to the airport, they immediately called the office of HG Bishop Youssef, our bishop (who resides in a monastery in Texas), and said "Don't send us people like Fr. So-and-So ever again!", and explained how he had fallen short of performing his duties in the reverent and serious manner which God demands. And the diocese complied, because it is a scandal to have a priest behave like that.

If we were to be slavishly devoted to a leader because he is a leader, it would be hard to imagine that we could have stood up for ourselves like that, or that the diocese would've responded as they did, instead of telling us that we have to 'sustain' the leaders of the Church and think of supporting them as a means of blessing ourselves. You want to bless us, give us priests who are worthy of being looked up to! That's a blessing, and not just for our sake either, but because God Himself seeks people to worship Him in spirit and in truth (not in laziness and disrespect)! Anyway...as usual, things are very different outside the Mormon bubble than inside of it, and I pray that those who are stuck in Mormonism come to the truth that the organization is not the true Church, not the restoration of anything lost, and that its leaders do not deserve their fealty. It looks like two people in this thread already learned that, thanks be to God, so we know it is possible, as all things are possible with God. :)
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Jesus taught that people NEED to keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:11)

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
(New Testament | John 14:21)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(New Testament | Matthew 5:20)

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and He did not teach the need to be subservient to a group of octogenarian businessmen turned 'prophets' in Utah.
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Who are not the so-called prophets of the Mormon religion.
Correct, because there is NO Mormon religion. However, members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do follow the true prophets of God. They will not lead us astray. They teach us the teachings of Jesus Christ and teach us that we should keep the commandments of LOVE. Those who do not obey Christ and the gospel of LOVE follow another gospel:

(New Testament | Galatians 1:6 - 8)

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and He did not teach the need to be subservient to a group of octogenarian businessmen turned 'prophets' in Utah.
Not yet it was still the 1st century. He did however, teach the need to be subservient to a group of men (several were businessmen) that he had given the keys of the kingdom and were the leaders of his church in the first century.

Same thing.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Yikes. There's also stuff like this quote from Pres. George Q. Cannon:


Apparently there's no Celestial Kingdom for you without these leaders and their 'constant revelation'. Kinda weird that this is how they put things while also chiding Christian churches like the Catholics and certain Protestants for having paid clergy or worship leaders. Like that's the most awful thing ever because it elevates certain people and turns serving the Lord into a job, but at the same time if you don't have or don't follow these certain Mormon people, you can't get the 'highest glory' or whatever. Huh.


The Mormon idea of 'loyalty' (from this Improvement Era essay) is, as usual, a perversion of a good thing in service of Mormonism itself. This stuff about 'idealizing officers' and making supporting them a form of blessing oneself...it's just nuts.

We don't have 'sustaining' church leaders in my Church (beyond offering an "Axios!" at a priest's ordination or whatever, which isn't a vote...priests are usually chosen by the community from among the community anyway, so it would be redundant), but we do hold them accountable to the same standard of the faith as we are accountable to. I think I've told this story before, but in case I haven't: the Coptic Orthodox diocese to which I used to belong would send us priests from Egypt as a 'gift' of sorts every year for the Holy Week services (the week leading up to Easter, which is filled with special, very long services to mark the end of Great Lent and the preparation for the resurrection of Christ), because the Holy Week services are something extra-special in the life of the Church and a lot of Coptic people who might not show up very often would show up for them, and the people liked having services in Arabic then because it reminded them of being in Egypt again, of the Church as they grew up in it (in the USA, of course, ~90%+ of any given service is going to be in English). Well one year they sent us a priest, I thankfully cannot remember his name, whom some people in the congregation (not me) observed scrolling through his cell phone inside the altar during the liturgy! That's a big no-no; very disrespectful! The people suffered through the remainder of the week with him out of politeness (and because there wasn't a 'back up' priest available to lead the services, since our normal priests were shared with congregations in nearby Arizona, so they were at their own churches over there, celebrating Holy Week with their other congregations), but as soon as they saw him off to the airport, they immediately called the office of HG Bishop Youssef, our bishop (who resides in a monastery in Texas), and said "Don't send us people like Fr. So-and-So ever again!", and explained how he had fallen short of performing his duties in the reverent and serious manner which God demands. And the diocese complied, because it is a scandal to have a priest behave like that.

If we were to be slavishly devoted to a leader because he is a leader, it would be hard to imagine that we could have stood up for ourselves like that, or that the diocese would've responded as they did, instead of telling us that we have to 'sustain' the leaders of the Church and think of supporting them as a means of blessing ourselves. You want to bless us, give us priests who are worthy of being looked up to! That's a blessing, and not just for our sake either, but because God Himself seeks people to worship Him in spirit and in truth (not in laziness and disrespect)! Anyway...as usual, things are very different outside the Mormon bubble than inside of it, and I pray that those who are stuck in Mormonism come to the truth that the organization is not the true Church, not the restoration of anything lost, and that its leaders do not deserve their fealty. It looks like two people in this thread already learned that, thanks be to God, so we know it is possible, as all things are possible with God. :)
You have no idea what it is to live in the shadow of a prophet of God, so whatever you say is not with knowledge.

For instance, what is more important, the book of Peter in the NT, or a man with the same authority from Jesus, teaching you what Jesus wants you to do today.
(Obviously you must believe this man today is a prophet like Peter was).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: He is the way
Upvote 0

Jamesone5

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2019
1,758
318
Basin
✟97,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You have no idea what it is to live in the shadow of a prophet of God, so whatever you say is not with knowledge.

For instance, what is more important, the book of Peter in the NT, or a man with the same authority from Jesus, teaching you what Jesus wants you to do today.
(Obviously you must believe this man today is a prophet like Peter was).

You have no idea what it is to live in the shadow of a prophet of God, so whatever you say is not with knowledge.---Peter1000

The "shadow of Prophet" and living in it blocks out the Light of Christ.

Therein lies the problem with Mormonism--they can't see Christ's Light because they are living and worshiping in a shadow.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jamesone5

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2019
1,758
318
Basin
✟97,413.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
(Old Testament | Amos 3:7)

7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I solidly believe it is should read in Mormonism---that "he revealeth his secret unto his servants --the Mormon [false] prophets"
 
Upvote 0

JohnAshton

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2019
2,197
1,580
88
Logan, Utah
✟45,911.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Shunning is prohibited, while excommunication is officially to be a last resort.
Both are done in Christian churches, Ironhold: I don't think they consider you an authority of whether or not to do it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
I solidly believe it is should read in Mormonism---that "he revealeth his secret unto his servants --the Mormon [false] prophets"
Are you trying to add to the scripture? Only a true prophet of God would dare to make changes to a scripture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JohnAshton
Upvote 0