LDS Free Agency

[Rescued One]

cause:
Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.
Causality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


cause: verb
2: to compel by command, authority, or force <caused him to resign>
Cause - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


LDS Teaching:
And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Abraham 4:28
(bold mine)

Why would the Gods cause them to be fruitful and multiply?

Why were Adam and Eve forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if doing so was the only way to become fruitful and multiply?

Let no carnal mind decide in his or her feigned brilliance or pretended wisdom that a mistake was made. The whole program was intelligently organized to bring children into the world with love and filial interdependence. Had the superficial ideas of many mortals of today prevailed, the world, the human race, and all proper things would long ago have come to an end.

Spencer W. Kimball, &#8220;The Lord&#8217;s Plan for Men and Women,&#8221; Ensign, Oct. 1975, p. 2

3. Adam and Eve would have had no children had they continued to live in the Garden of Eden (see 2 Nephi 2:23 ; Moses 5:11 )...

1. Adam and Eve were commanded not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Genesis 2:15&#8211;17 ; Moses 3:15&#8211;17 ; Abraham 5:11&#8211;13 ).

2. Eve was beguiled by Satan and partook of the fruit (see Genesis 3:1&#8211;6 ; Moses 4:5&#8211;12 ; 1 Timothy 2:14 ).

3. Eve gave the fruit to Adam, and he partook (see Genesis 3:6 ; Moses 4:12 )...

If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence, without children, thereby frustrating God&#8217;s plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:22&#8211;24 ; Moses 5:10&#8211;11 )...


&#8220;I&#8217;m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn&#8217;t a sin. . . . What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn&#8217;t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [ Moses 3:16&#8211;17 .]

Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual : Chapter 8 - The Fall
(Bold mine)


Did the "Gods" cause Adam and Eve to transgress?

If they [the Gods] caused it, could Adam and Eve have chosen to not be fruitful and multiply?

 

[BarryK]

cause:
Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.
Causality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


cause: verb
2: to compel by command, authority, or force <caused him to resign>
Cause - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


LDS Teaching:
And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Abraham 4:28
(bold mine)

Why would the Gods cause them to be fruitful and multiply?

Why were Adam and Eve forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if doing so was the only way to become fruitful and multiply?


Spencer W. Kimball, “The Lord’s Plan for Men and Women,” Ensign, Oct. 1975, p. 2



Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual : Chapter 8 - The Fall
(Bold mine)


Did the "Gods" cause Adam and Eve to transgress?

If they [the Gods] caused it, could Adam and Eve have chosen to not be fruitful and multiply?

How did Adam and Eve feel about what they had done?

lets see what God has to say about the mater of "sin" vs. "transgression"

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God clearly told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gods word is Law

They transgressed the law
the definition of sin, according to Gods word is transgressin of the law

they sinned

 

[Moodshadow]

lets see what God has to say about the mater of "sin" vs. "transgression"

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God clearly told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gods word is Law

They transgressed the law
the definition of sin, according to Gods word is transgressin of the law

they sinned

Ah, yes - but as we've seen before in Mormonism, depending on circumstances, there can be an important distinction between words other people would consider 100% synonymous. To Mormons sin and transgression are not always the same thing, and this is one of those occasions. They believe that since God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to partake of the fruit but knew that they would partake anyway (since they had to in order to become mortal and obey the second commandment to multiply and replenish the earth), it thus qualifies as a less serious transgression rather than a more serious sin.

 

[Rescued One]

Attention! I'd like to focus on whether or not LDS teach that Adam had free will, or is Abraham 4:28 twisted to mean something else? Did the Gods cause them to multiply or did they not?

 

[alfonsobonetti]

lets see what God has to say about the mater of "sin" vs. "transgression"

1 John 3:4 (KJV)
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

God clearly told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gods word is Law

They transgressed the law
the definition of sin, according to Gods word is transgressin of the law

they sinned

Your "interpretation" of that verse is not what the verse actually states.
It is stating that an Apple is a Fruit.... It is not stating that a Fruit is also an Apple.

In other words, sin is considered also a transgression of the Law, and thus when you sin you are transgressing the law. This is the "plain english" of what is being stated. You trying to claim a Fruit is the same as an Apple is not what the verse is stating.

Adam and Eve in the Garden were like "children". Children being ignorant and innocent do not "sin" when they transgress a law. Sin is indeed a transgression of law, but a transgression of law doesn't mean someone automatically sin. A sin is an intelligent choice and overt act against God and Good. The verse you quote is speaking to the first, not the later. Thus you are trying to make the verse fit your theology rather than simply stating what it actually and ONLY says. The verse is speaking of sin as being also transgression, it is not stating that all transgression is sin, for that is YOUR "adding" to the Word.

Even further, if you don't believe MY "interpretation", then please compare the different translations. NONE of the translations indicate "your" interpretation.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

 

[Rescued One]

...Your "interpretation" of that verse is not what the verse actually states...

ENTIRE POST IS OFF-TOPIC!

 

[Moodshadow]

Your "interpretation" of that verse is not what the verse actually states.
It is stating that an Apple is a Fruit.... It is not stating that a Fruit is also an Apple.

In other words, sin is considered also a transgression of the Law, and thus when you sin you are transgressing the law. This is the "plain english" of what is being stated. You trying to claim a Fruit is the same as an Apple is not what the verse is stating.

Adam and Eve in the Garden were like "children". Children being ignorant and innocent do not "sin" when they transgress a law. Sin is indeed a transgression of law, but a transgression of law doesn't mean someone automatically sin. A sin is an intelligent choice and overt act against God and Good. The verse you quote is speaking to the first, not the later. Thus you are trying to make the verse fit your theology rather than simply stating what it actually and ONLY says. The verse is speaking of sin as being also transgression, it is not stating that all transgression is sin, for that is YOUR "adding" to the Word.

Even further, if you don't believe MY "interpretation", then please compare the different translations. NONE of the translations indicate "your" interpretation.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Mormonism tries to make its entire "scriptures" [quotation marks appropriate here] fit its theology, including the Holy Bible.

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Why would the Gods cause them to be fruitful and multiply?

Because doing so is an important part of the Plan of Salvation.

Why were Adam and Eve forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if doing so was the only way to become fruitful and multiply?

Because in order to have free agency they must choose a thing for themselves. God allowed the serpent to tempt and give additional information some truth and some falsehood, and thus they choose for themselves. Initially they were like innocent and ignorant children. It could be said they didn't "know" that there was a conflict and contradition between commands, they didn't "know" what Multiplying and Replenishing meant, the same way our children don't know what it means until they are able. But, as they matured and were taught more on the subject, they could then choose.

Did the "Gods" cause Adam and Eve to transgress?

The scripture doesn't say that. "Cause" is not the same as it being required. It is Adam & Eve that transgressed, they alone. God yes established the circumstances according to Law, and thus maybe indirectly so, but not exactly.

If they [the Gods] caused it, could Adam and Eve have chosen to not be fruitful and multiply?

When satan came along they were given a "choice". They chose the better part for themselves knowing that they would break one law in order to accomplish another. They could have chosen otherwise, but they were "mature" enough to know that they only had one reasonable choice, and that was the one they took.

How did Adam and Eve feel about what they had done?

They felt bad, especially knowing that they would be separated from God and cast out, but they knew it had to be done and they praised God.

 

[alfonsobonetti]

ENTIRE POST IS OFF-TOPIC!

Be PATIENT PLEASE....! Unnecessary disrespect!

 

[Rescued One]

Did the Gods cause Adam and Eve to multiply or did the Gods not cause them to multiply?

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Mormonism tries to make its entire "scriptures" [quotation marks appropriate here] fit its theology, including the Holy Bible.

Your opinion, but not mine. To us that is what your religions do, and I knew it before ever being mormon, so you can't claim I was "brainwashed" to think how I do. I simply saw the Bible for what it in full said, and saw that many of your interpretations we not true and accurate interpretations. But, when I came upon mormonism, it was the only thing that actually fit the Bible.

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Did the Gods cause Adam and Eve to multiply or did the Gods not cause them to multiply?

Obviously by the very nature of them organizing/creating man they did "cause" man to have the ability to Multiply and Replenish the earth as well as everything else.

Man didn't create himself, God did. He formed mans body out of the dust of the earth, breath our spirits into that body, and thus man was created. Thus of course God "caused" all this to be.

What is with the odd/obviously understandable question?

 

[RufustheRed]

Be PATIENT PLEASE....! Unnecessary disrespect!

No! The disrespect was when you posted an off topic message AFTER the originator of the thread requested that people stay on topic. Why would she need to be patient. You need to be polite and accept her wishes. After all it IS her thread.

Rufus

 

[RufustheRed]

<<<Text omitted>>>​

... God allowed the serpent to tempt and give additional information some truth and some falsehood, and thus they choose for themselves.

This contrary to scripture. Please read what Jesus had to say.
"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44 KJV)

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

Because doing so is an important part of the Plan of Salvation.

Disobedience was important?

Because in order to have free agency they must choose a thing for themselves.

Choosing disobedience is what gives free agency/ability to choose? That's a new one!

God allowed the serpent to tempt and give additional information some truth and some falsehood, and thus they choose for themselves. Initially they were like innocent and ignorant children. It could be said they didn't "know" that there was a conflict and contradition between commands, they didn't "know" what Multiplying and Replenishing meant, the same way our children don't know what it means until they are able. But, as they matured and were taught more on the subject, they could then choose.

The fruit trees had no choice. If Adam and Eve were ignorant and innocent, why wouldn't maturity change that?

The scripture doesn't say that. "Cause" is not the same as it being required.

I did not say that it was "the same thing as it being required." I gave the definition of cause. Have you read and understood the definition?

It is Adam & Eve that transgressed, they alone. God yes established the circumstances according to Law, and thus maybe indirectly so, but not exactly.

Did the Gods(plural) cause Adam and Eve to be fruitful ?

When satan came along they were given a "choice". They chose the better part for themselves knowing that they would break one law in order to accomplish another.

How did they know what to choose or that disobedience to God would make another commandment possible if they had NO knowledge of good and evil?

They could have chosen otherwise, but they were "mature" enough to know that they only had one reasonable choice, and that was the one they took.

Who says they were ignorant, innocent, immature or mature?

They felt bad, especially knowing that they would be separated from God and cast out, but they knew it had to be done and they praised God.

How do you know that they felt bad?

"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient".
Moses 5:11

BTW, according to JS, the Gods caused them to be fruitful!

 

[skylark1]

The following is from LDS Gospel Topics, Agency, under additional information.

God's children have power to choose; they had this ability even before they were born. In the premortal life, Heavenly Father presented His plan, which included the principle of agency. Lucifer rebelled and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). As a result, Lucifer and all those who followed him were denied the privilege of receiving a mortal body. All who have been or will be born on earth chose to follow Heavenly Father's plan.

In this life, people continue to have agency; even if their personal freedoms are restricted or taken away, they can choose how to feel and react. Their use of their agency determines their happiness or misery in this life and in the life to come. People are free to choose and act but are not free to choose the consequences of their actions. The consequences may not be immediate, but they will always follow. Choices of good and righteousness lead to happiness, peace, and eternal life, while choices of sin and evil eventually lead to heartache and misery.​

So, my understanding is that LDS teach that Adam and Eve had free will or agency prior to the fall.

 

[BarryK]

.

 

[BarryK]

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This contrary to scripture. Please read what Jesus had to say.
"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44 KJV)

Rufus

dont distract Obiwan with facts

 

[Rescued One]

The following is from LDS Gospel Topics, Agency, under additional information.

God's children have power to choose; they had this ability even before they were born. In the premortal life, Heavenly Father presented His plan, which included the principle of agency. Lucifer rebelled and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). As a result, Lucifer and all those who followed him were denied the privilege of receiving a mortal body. All who have been or will be born on earth chose to follow Heavenly Father's plan.

In this life, people continue to have agency; even if their personal freedoms are restricted or taken away, they can choose how to feel and react. Their use of their agency determines their happiness or misery in this life and in the life to come. People are free to choose and act but are not free to choose the consequences of their actions. The consequences may not be immediate, but they will always follow. Choices of good and righteousness lead to happiness, peace, and eternal life, while choices of sin and evil eventually lead to heartache and misery.​

So, my understanding is that LDS teach that Adam and Eve had free will or agency prior to the fall.

Do you think (according to Mormonism) that Adam and Eve were taught that choosing a lesser disobedience was necessary in order to obey a higher commandment? LDS teaching is that some sins are more serious than others, therefore the punishment can be less severe.

However if the Gods caused them to be fruitful, was it accomplished by disobedience, and what does that do to the free will?

 

[alfonsobonetti]

No! The disrespect was when you posted an off topic message AFTER the originator of the thread requested that people stay on topic. Why would she need to be patient. You need to be polite and accept her wishes. After all it IS her thread.

Rufus

I don't believe it is appropriate to allow statements to go uncorrected and unchallenged. And before you state it, a new thread wasn't necessary. I had just posted that response and was right in the middle of addressing "her" question that was then posted soon after her "personal" attack. If she had simply waited a moment, the thread was back on track.

If you all wish to accuse people of disrespect for simply responding to a comment, you should then claim BarryK was the one who disrespected. Further, really there was no disrespect in this case by either party, because his comments were "related" to the subject, thus a reasonable part of the discussion.

Conversations in real life don't stay only on one particular thing when discussing in a group, or even between two individuals. Thus, while I understand the "preference" to keep threads as clean as possible, this wasn't a significant enough of a distraction to merit scolding, and is in this case frankly an unreasonable expectation to place on people.

I answered a comment, that's what we do here. Thus no "disrespect" occurred on my part, but it did occur on her part by being overly dramatic, not allowing the thread to flow within reason, chastising unreasonably.