LCMS vs Science

[FaithT]

For those of you who are LCMS, how do you handle the onslaught of scientific theories and hypothesis’s that are out there and still adhere to your faith? For example, Adam was, according to the Bible, made out of clay or dust from the ground. Scientists say he evolved.
According to the Bible, man didn’t arise from a population of people. Scientists say there was never a population bottleneck of fewer than 10,000 people. Bible implies the earth is young. Scientists say it’s millions or billions of years old.
How do you reconcile your faith with science?

@Daniel9v9

 

[spiritfilledjm]

For those of you who are LCMS, how do you handle the onslaught of scientific theories and hypothesis’s that are out there and still adhere to your faith? For example, Adam was, according to the Bible, made out of clay or dust from the ground. Scientists say he evolved.
According to the Bible, man didn’t arise from a population of people. Scientists say there was never a population bottleneck of fewer than 10,000 people. Bible implies the earth is young. Scientists say it’s millions or billions of years old.
How do you reconcile your faith with science?

@Daniel9v9

Simple, they are wrong, the Word of God is right.

 

[FaithT]

After time, prayer council and a lot of thought I felt like God was leading me back to the CC but after getting there last weekend, I wasn’t happy there. I missed the LCMS church I joined about 3 years ago.
Now, having said that, I’m still struggling with the teachings and literalness of the Bible.

 

[FaithT]

Simple, they are wrong, the Word of God is right.

And you know this because……?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

And you know this because……?

Because God and His Word are infallible.

 

[FaithT]

Because God and His Word are infallible.

Sorry, I need more than that, I need scientific proof of things.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Sorry, I need more than that, I need scientific proof of things.

Why do you need that particular kind of proof? Do you see it as infallible in the same way that spiritfilledjm sees the Bible? Are you sure that there is real scientific proof of some of the things that you believe about the world even things that don't involve things written in the Bible? I am not part of an LCMS affiliating congregation so I won't pretend to know their stance on the literal nature of the Bible. I am just curious to understand why scientific proof is so necessary to you in matters for which science was nor designed to come up with. There is actually no scientific proof that Adam or anyone else evolved or that there was never a bottleneck of less than 10,000 people. All scientist can say for certain is that there is evidence to suggest that those things are probable and that the biblical account which proposes something different than those things is highly improbable from that scientific evidence. As an aside, Adam being made of clay could be said to be scientifically accurate in at least one sense. If one were to consider that the basis of physical matter is the same for all physical things both living and non living. Both you and I and a clod of clay consist of the same basic ingredients.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Sorry, I need more than that, I need scientific proof of things.

Then you're headed for faithlessness.

 

[FaithT]

Why do you need that particular kind of proof? Do you see it as infallible in the same way that spiritfilledjm sees the Bible? Are you sure that there is real scientific proof of some of the things that you believe about the world even things that don't involve things written in the Bible? I am not part of an LCMS affiliating congregation so I won't pretend to know their stance on the literal nature of the Bible. I am just curious to understand why scientific proof is so necessary to you in matters for which science was nor designed to come up with. There is actually no scientific proof that Adam or anyone else evolved or that there was never a bottleneck of less than 10,000 people. All scientist can say for certain is that there is evidence to suggest that those things are probable and that the biblical account which proposes something different than those things is highly improbable from that scientific evidence. As an aside, Adam being made of clay could be said to be scientifically accurate in at least one sense. If one were to consider that the basis of physical matter is the same for all physical things both living and non living. Both you and I and a clod of clay consist of the same basic ingredients.

I need that kind of proof because science has studied and have already spoken on some of these things, (yes I know that God has spoken too so let’s not throw that in here) although I will agree about the clay. I’ve read a couple articles that support that.
I want to say that I do see it as infallible as spiritfilledjm does, but I guess my faith isn’t that strong. I wish it was.

 

[FaithT]

<<<<<There is actually no scientific proof that Adam or anyone else evolved or that there was never a bottleneck of less than 10,000 people.>>>>>


Are you sure? I could live with that.
I came from a Catholic Church to the LCMS and have been struggling. After a lot of prayer, thought and some counsel, I went back to the CC over the weekend. Twice actually. One service and a baptism. I missed my LCMS church. A lot.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I need that kind of proof because science has studied and have already spoken on some of these things, (yes I know that God has spoken too so let’s not throw that in here) although I will agree about the clay. I’ve read a couple articles that support that.
I want to say that I do see it as infallible as spiritfilledjm does, but I guess my faith isn’t that strong. I wish it was.

You're not going to get the sort of scientific answers that you're seeking. It comes down to faith. You're choosing to believe the creature rather than the Creator.

Romans 1
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

 

[FaithT]

You're not going to get the sort of scientific answers that you're seeking. It comes down to faith. You're choosing to believe the creature rather than the Creator.

Romans 1
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

I’m sorry, but you’re not helping. Scripture isn’t going to help. I’ve got Proverbs 3:5 tattooed on my ankle for goodness sake.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I need that kind of proof because science has studied and have already spoken on some of these things, (yes I know that God has spoken too so let’s not throw that in here) although I will agree about the clay. I’ve read a couple articles that support that.
I want to say that I do see it as infallible as spiritfilledjm does, but I guess my faith isn’t that strong. I wish it was.

Scientists, not science, do the studying and will sometimes speak in contradiction to each other often correcting each other's mistakes. Science is the tool they use to come to the conclusions they come to. Those conclusions are always based upon scientific evidence and sometimes on scientific proof.

To be clear, are you saying that you see science as infallible as spiritfilledjm sees the Bible as infallible? That was the question I was asking. If you do, then your faith in science would be as strong as spiritfilledjm's faith in the Bible is. It would tell us that perhaps your faith in science is greater than your faith in the Bible. It would tell us nothing at all about how strong your faith in Christ is. Your faith in Christ is not based upon whether Adam evolved or not but about whether you believe Christ died for your sins and has prepared a place for you in His Kingdom.

 

[FaithT]

Scientists, not science, do the studying and will sometimes speak in contradiction to each other often correcting each other's mistakes. Science is the tool they use to come to the conclusions they come to. Those conclusions are always based upon scientific evidence and sometimes on scientific proof.

To be clear, are you saying you see science as infallible as spiritfilledjm sees the Bible as infallible? That was the question I was asking. If you do, then your faith in science would be as strong as spiritfilledjm's faith in the Bible is. It would tell us that perhaps your faith in science is greater than your faith in the Bible. It would tell us nothing at all about how strong your faith in Christ is. Your faith in Christ is not based upon whether Adam evolved or not but about whether you believe Christ died for your sins and has prepared a place for you in His Kingdom.

I have a strong faith in Jesus. My problem is the OT. And no, I don’t view science or scientists as being infallible.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have a strong faith in Jesus. My problem is the OT. And no, I don’t view science or scientists as being infallible.

Ok that clears that up.

If you find parts of the OT a stumbling block perhaps you ought to rip those parts out of your Bible and throw them away?

 

[FaithT]

Ok that clears that up.

If you find parts of the OT a stumbling block perhaps you ought to rip those parts out of your Bible and throw them away?

I’d never rip up my Bible. Are you joking?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I’d never rip up my Bible. Are we’re you joking?

I did not tell you to rip up your Bible only to rip out the parts that might cause you to stumble. If something causes you to stumble tear it out and throw it away. That was Jesus advice. How literally you take it is up to you.


Matt 5:29-30

29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I’m sorry, but you’re not helping. Scripture isn’t going to help. I’ve got Proverbs 3:5 tattooed on my ankle for goodness sake.

That's kind of my point. That you won't get a scientific answer, it comes down to faith, and you're choosing to believe the creature (human scientists) over the Creator (God). It's a path to faithlessness, if you're not already there.

 

[FaithT]

I did not tell you to rip up your Bible only to rip out the parts that might cause you to stumble. If something causes you to stumble tear it out and throw it away. That was Jesus advice. How literally you take it is up to you.


Matt 5:29-30

29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Jesus didn’t mean to rip pages out of my Bible any more than he literally meant to cut off a hand or pluck an eye out.

 

[FaithT]

What about those who learned biology, astronomy etc. at the college level and grad school level? Just unlearn it?