LCMS hate

[FireDragon76]

What's with the level of vitriol from LCMS folks at times? I don't see nearly as much antipathy from the PCA towards PC-USA. Why do you think this is so, in your experience?

 

[tampasteve]

I am not sure exactly where it stems from, but it is pervasive among internet going Lutherans. I have been members of some Facebook Lutheran groups that I had to leave because they were more or less just ELCA bashing at nearly every third post. I get it, there are some real doctrinal differences, but the vitriol and hate from the LCMS side is disconcerting. If they truly want a dialog about the issues and differences that would be one thing but many do not, they just want to drive by say that the ELCA are not Lutheran - and more often then not they will say that we are not even Christian.

Now, that is painting with a broad brush. On the ground in many parishes and churches it is a different matter among the people, many would not know the differences and would not care anyways. Surveys of the LCMS and ELCA have shown that while the LCMS person is more "conservative" on average than the average ELCA member, it is not by a huge margin.

 

[FireDragon76]

Pastor Rob gets alot of this, too. "Oh, you are in that apostate church?" type thing.

I must admit there is some of this in the ELCA, but it's less vitriolic. It's more like rolling your eyes at your crazy uncle's antics, the one that stands on the lawn and swears at kids and is generally embarrassing.

A few months ago we met an LCMS guy in a pizza parlor that was fairly friendly. He had been in the ELCA at one time. He actually had been a pastor but his church burned down. We didn't talk to him alot in depth about anything becaues I figured we would have deep differences and I didn't want to have one of those types of conversation.

If you've ever read the book Pastrix, Pr. Nadia has an account of how she became friends with Pr. Jordan Cooper. She used to really, really not get along with conservative Lutherans. Pr. Jordan Cooper is in a different synod from the LCMS- while he's conservative, he doesn't seem as spikey as many conservative LCMS types I have encountered. So maybe that is part of that. He's more eclectic in his approach.

 

[tampasteve]

So far it has been my experience that it is more the online (Facebook is really bad) LCMS members that tend to be the worst, in person people seem to be better. I have not had much contact with other Lutheran church members other than a couple AFLC pastors (one from Being Lutheran podcast as I have emailed back and forth with him a couple of times), and while they disagree with ELCA positions, they also understand that the people and the church might vary from the denomination, and even then they are more willing to converse than condemn.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah, that's damning with faint praise, though. "Your church is wrong but at least people dissent from it"? I guess that's the best we can hope for.

I'm relatively unapologetic about the ELCA and its policies. I think they are generally well-thought-out, relatively conservative, and don't come out of left field. But then, I've done alot of reading on theology, philosophy, and Church history and I understand that being a Christian can't be so simple in a post-Auschwitz world.

I think you are right that there isn't actually as much difference between LCMS and ELCA as one might first imagine. I'm actually listening to the Lutheran Hour right now and it's not that different from the kind of preaching you can find in our churches.

 

[tampasteve]

Yeah, that's damning with faint praise, though. "Your church is wrong but at least people dissent from it"? I guess that's the best we can hope for.

I'm relatively unapologetic about the ELCA and its policies. I think they are generally well-thought-out, relatively conservative, and don't come out of left field. But then, I've done alot of reading on theology, philosophy, and Church history and I understand that being a Christian can't be so simple in a post-Auschwitz world.

I agree, it is about the best you can hope for, but overall at least that is a place to start.

I think you are right that there isn't actually as much difference between LCMS and ELCA as one might first imagine. I'm actually listening to the Lutheran Hour right now and it's not that different from the kind of preaching you can find in our churches.

I really believe there is not, but getting to the point of just having a dialog is the difficult part overall.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree, it is about the best you can hope for, but overall at least that is a place to start.

I really believe there is not, but getting to the point of just having a dialog is the difficult part overall.

Perhaps the most outspoken are simply the types of people that are strongly politically aligned with the Right and are therefore the most critical of our social statements. I can't imagine a political moderate finding our social statements all that controversial.

 

[FireDragon76]

I used to go to a Continuing Anglican church back in my early 30's and they handed out political fliers in pews occasionally. And they were very spikey, prickly types of folks at times, some of the folks were very bitterly anti-Episcopalian.

My guess is some LCMS types see traditional religion and paleoconservativism as joined at the hip, and have a similar attitude. Any Christian that doesn't exactly line up isn't merely wrong, but is also seen as a threat.

 

[Tigger45]

When I first started attending a Lutheran congregation LCMC, I thought I’d make my introduction in the ‘main’ Lutheran forum and got ‘dog piled on’ by confessional Lutherans. And what made it worst was the pack leader was/is a Lutheran pastor. Mind you I had no inkling of the divisiveness I was innocently stepping into.

Lutheranism is at the core of my Christian understanding but without sacrificing love, kindness, gentleness and humbleness.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

As a relative new comer to Lutheranism, I must say that in person the LCMS is loving, kind, etc., however I have seen more vitriol online. From people from the RCC (of which I was apart for 20 years) there was definitely vitriol from conservative members, mostly politically (although I've seen some theologically, too), but mostly online, but not in person (except in some parishes of traditionalists). I was Episcopalian for 25 years and have heard that conservative Continuing Anglicans are often prickly in person, however that's only from heresay. And that was also due to political positions. IOW, online people can be misunderstood/nastier than in person (generally) and that politics causes a lot of that vitriol. It needn't, to my mind, politics often don't have anything to do with Christianity, except that we need to help the poor (as people's consciences lead them).

 

[FireDragon76]

As a relative new comer to Lutheranism, I must say that in person the LCMS is loving, kind, etc., however I have seen more vitriol online. From people from the RCC (of which I was apart for 20 years) there was definitely vitriol from conservative members, mostly politically (although I've seen some theologically, too), but mostly online, but not in person (except in some parishes of traditionalists). I was Episcopalian for 25 years and have heard that conservative Continuing Anglicans are often prickly in person, however that's only from heresay. And that was also due to political positions. IOW, online people can be misunderstood/nastier than in person (generally) and that politics causes a lot of that vitriol. It needn't, to my mind, politics often don't have anything to do with Christianity, except that we need to help the poor (as people's consciences lead them).

Thanks for your perspective.

I have come to accept that there are just differences in the two approaches.

When I first started attending a Lutheran congregation LCMC, I thought I’d make my introduction in the ‘main’ Lutheran forum and got ‘dog piled on’ by confessional Lutherans. And what made it worst was the pack leader was/is a Lutheran pastor. Mind you I had no inkling of the divisiveness I was innocently stepping into.

Lutheranism is at the core of my Christian understanding but without sacrificing love, kindness, gentleness and humbleness.

That's more or less my pastors attitude as well.

 

[Halbhh]

I am not sure exactly where it stems from, but it is pervasive among internet going Lutherans. I have been members of some Facebook Lutheran groups that I had to leave because they were more or less just ELCA bashing at nearly every third post. I get it, there are some real doctrinal differences, but the vitriol and hate from the LCMS side is disconcerting. If they truly want a dialog about the issues and differences that would be one thing but many do not, they just want to drive by say that the ELCA are not Lutheran - and more often then not they will say that we are not even Christian.

Now, that is painting with a broad brush. On the ground in many parishes and churches it is a different matter among the people, many would not know the differences and would not care anyways. Surveys of the LCMS and ELCA have shown that while the LCMS person is more "conservative" on average than the average ELCA member, it is not by a huge margin.

What's with the level of vitriol from LCMS folks at times? I don't see nearly as much antipathy from the PCA towards PC-USA. Why do you think this is so, in your experience?

It is somewhat surprising to hear, since the few LCMS I have met personally, during dartball league games, never once made any bad statements or jokes about us being ELCA, and seemed happy visiting our church, and online here I've had little awareness of strife.

But one reason, very realistic, why people can indeed be angry at Christians, anywhere, is when the Christians are doing the radical things Christ said, and it makes those people uncomfortable, and feel angry, as they don't want to feel guilty. It's like Christ said in the 2nd half of John 15 even I think, at times. I just didn't realize that was happening here, but I know you both well enough to take your word for it.

 

[tampasteve]

It is not that bad on these forums, the overall rules for CF keeps the discussion pretty civil. Actually, the ELCA Facebook page can be pretty bad to conservative ELCA members and is harsh to LCMS views, so it does go both ways.

That said, in person things are ALWAYS much better, it is the internet that tends to make people say more radical or hurtful things. This is not just an LCMS/ELCA issue, it is in any contentious discussion - and IMO it is worse on Facebook.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

It is not that bad on these forums, the overall rules for CF keeps the discussion pretty civil. Actually, the ELCA Facebook page can be pretty bad to conservative ELCA members and is harsh to LCMS views, so it does go both ways.

I agree. I've not seen it yet, but I certainly believe you guys. I just have only been Lutheran for 6 months. I do know it was terrible, on the internet, for RCC. Not that I ever saw in person for the 20 years I was there, but definitely on the internet! Too many human beings have no. Or little respect for other humans and their beliefs. I'm sure it's the same for Hindi, Buddhist, etc. It's so sad!

[/QUOTE]That said, in person things are ALWAYS much better, it is the internet that tends to make people say more radical or hurtful things. This is not just an LCMS/ELCA issue, it is in any contentious discussion - and IMO it is worse on Facebook.[/QUOTE]

 

[David Cote]

I remember when my wife and I were looking for a Lutheran parish, and the closest one was a LCMS. We walk in and several members immediately saw us and asked us if we were LCMS. We said no, that we were Lutherans (I am a Lutheran pastor, btw for full disclosure). So immediately they asked if we were ELCA, to which we said yes. So the first question was do you believe in the Trinity, to which I quoted the Apostles Creed. Then they asked if we believed in the Real Presence, to which I began to make references to both Luther's Large Catechism and Martin Chemnitz's The Lords Supper. That pretty much ended the cross-examination, and although we were not permitted to commune, the folks pretty much settled down following our brief cross-examination. I did talk with the pastor following the service (still the Green Book, this was in the 1990's before their Blue Book came out) and he apologized but said that there is a automatic suspicion regarding ELCA as to their belief in the Confessions and biblical faith. We fellowshipped with them following the service, and we never returned. We found another ELCA congregation a little further away.

 

[Halbhh]

I remember when my wife and I were looking for a Lutheran parish, and the closest one was a LCMS. We walk in and several members immediately saw us and asked us if we were LCMS. We said no, that we were Lutherans (I am a Lutheran pastor, btw for full disclosure). So immediately they asked if we were ELCA, to which we said yes. So the first question was do you believe in the Trinity, to which I quoted the Apostles Creed. Then they asked if we believed in the Real Presence, to which I began to make references to both Luther's Large Catechism and Martin Chemnitz's The Lords Supper. That pretty much ended the cross-examination, and although we were not permitted to commune, the folks pretty much settled down following our brief cross-examination. I did talk with the pastor following the service (still the Green Book, this was in the 1990's before their Blue Book came out) and he apologized but said that there is a automatic suspicion regarding ELCA as to their belief in the Confessions and biblical faith. We fellowshipped with them following the service, and we never returned. We found another ELCA congregation a little further away.

That is helpful, in that we know human nature is to easily believe bad things about others we don't know, and it's helpful to show how it happens in churches, in that we want to be sure to bring the gospel message of redemption and rebirth through Christ more than just once or twice a year inside a church, and not assume everyone is already truly converted.

 

[KagomeShuko]

I don't know, but the LCMS people here are especially vitriolic towards the ELCA. Years ago, I was an admin for this forum and people 20+ years my elder (I was only in my 20s, and am only in my late 30s now) would send me harassing messages just for being a member of the ELCA and not liking that I followed forum rules. They would purposely do things that would get themselves in trouble and then complain.

I don't get it. You'd think as Christians they would behave, but they don't . . .

It's like they don't believe in a God of Love . . .

 

[tampasteve]

I don't know, but the LCMS people here are especially vitriolic towards the ELCA. Years ago, I was an admin for this forum and people 20+ years my elder (I was only in my 20s, and am only in my late 30s now) would send me harassing messages just for being a member of the ELCA and not liking that I followed forum rules. They would purposely do things that would get themselves in trouble and then complain.

I don't get it. You'd think as Christians they would behave, but they don't . . .

It's like they don't believe in a God of Love . . .

Fortunately it is not that bad on these forums any more, most people tend to follow the rules between LCMS/ELCA. As I mentioned though, it really does go both ways. I have joined and left the Facebook ELCA group several times. Each time I join I hope that tings have gotten better, but in general the people there have no time for the more conservative views of some ELCA members - let along LCMS or another conservative denomination. The vitriol goes both directions, unfortunately. I also really do wish we could focus, at least on these boards, on what we have in common rather than what separates us.