LCMS and OT

[FaithT]

For those who are LCMS, how many of you believe the Old Testament stories, especially their details, are literally true? For instance Enoch (or was it Elijah?) flew to heaven in a chariot, or Methuselah living to almost 1000? Etc.
Besides Jesus believing the OT stories, what evidence do you have they’re true?

@Daniel9v9

 

[FaithT]

For those who are LCMS, how many of you believe the Old Testament stories, especially their details, are literally true? For instance Enoch (or was it Elijah?) flew to heaven in a chariot, or Methuselah living to almost 1000? Etc.
Besides Jesus believing the OT stories, what evidence do you have they’re true?

@Daniel9v9

Anyone?

 

[Tigger45]

I’m not officially LCMS per se but my Christian tradition agrees with their approach to historic biblical Christianity.

With that said I’m all in when it comes to Old and New Testament miracles.

 

[FaithT]

I’m not officially LCMS per se but my Christian tradition agrees with their approach to historic biblical Christianity.

With that said I’m all in when it comes to Old and New Testament miracles.

Were they miracles or daily life in those times?

 

[Daniel9v9]

For those who are LCMS, how many of you believe the Old Testament stories, especially their details, are literally true? For instance Enoch (or was it Elijah?) flew to heaven in a chariot, or Methuselah living to almost 1000? Etc.
Besides Jesus believing the OT stories, what evidence do you have they’re true?

@Daniel9v9

They are true because they are not recorded for us as metaphors but historical accounts and God does not lie. But like all miracles, we should not seek to "prove" them, but trust in them. We are to trust in God and His works, and we can be assured that what God has spoken is good and true.

To be a bit forceful in this — To deny all miracles is to be not Christian. To deny some miracles is both arbitrary and a dangerous road. That is, just as we know by faith that Jesus was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father, we also know that Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven.

 

[FaithT]

They are true because they are not recorded for us as metaphors but historical accounts and God does not lie. But like all miracles, we should not seek to "prove" them, but trust in them. We are to trust in God and His works, and we can be assured that what God has spoken is good and true.

To be a bit forceful in this — To deny all miracles is to be not Christian. To deny some miracles is both arbitrary and a dangerous road. That is, just as we know by faith that Jesus was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father, we also know that Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven.

Were these events occasional supernatural miracles or daily occurrences?

 

[Daniel9v9]

Were these events occasional supernatural miracles or daily occurrences?

Well, God works in nature, and also above it; He uses nature to sustain the universe, but that does not mean that He is bound by the laws that He has set in place. For example, ordinarily, God feeds His creation through food from nature. However, at times He also feeds supernaturally, like when Jesus fed great crowds of people using only a few pieces of bread and a few fish (Matthew 14:13-21, Matthew 15:32-39), or as He feeds us with His body and blood in the Holy Eucharist (1 Corinthians 10:16). He's not constrained by natural law, but He is free to break it (Luke 8:25), and the reason He breaks it is to show us something important — namely, Jesus Christ. So, instead of doubting that something occurred, it's more profitable to consider what the amazing miracles mean for us!

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are packed with miracles. These miracles do not occur naturally — if they did, they wouldn't really be miracles — rather, they are exceptional works of God recorded for us in history. The Apostle John through the Holy Spirit tells us exactly why these miracles occurred — that they were not fundamentally for the benefit of those to whom it happened, but for us. He writes (John 20): "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these [miracles] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

However, I noticed you included the long age of Methuselah, and that is a bit different. Originally, when God created the human race, He did not intend for us to die. Death is a consequence of sin. In the age after the fall, however, humans slowly deteriorated, and originally, they were blessed with long lives. But we learn in Genesis 6 that God limits the lifespan of mankind to 120 years. This is a consequence of our continued rebellion towards God. But in either case, a long life, life itself, miracles, and all good things, are gifts from God.

 

[FaithT]

Well, God works in nature, and also above it; He uses nature to sustain the universe, but that does not mean that He is bound by the laws that He has set in place. For example, ordinarily, God feeds His creation through food from nature. However, at times He also feeds supernaturally, like when Jesus fed great crowds of people using only a few pieces of bread and a few fish (Matthew 14:13-21, Matthew 15:32-39), or as He feeds us with His body and blood in the Holy Eucharist (1 Corinthians 10:16). He's not constrained by natural law, but He is free to break it (Luke 8:25), and the reason He breaks it is to show us something important — namely, Jesus Christ. So, instead of doubting that something occurred, it's more profitable to consider what the amazing miracles mean for us!

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are packed with miracles. These miracles do not occur naturally — if they did, they wouldn't really be miracles — rather, they are exceptional works of God recorded for us in history. The Apostle John through the Holy Spirit tells us exactly why these miracles occurred — that they were not fundamentally for the benefit of those to whom it happened, but for us. He writes (John 20): "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these [miracles] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

However, I noticed you included the long age of Methuselah, and that is a bit different. Originally, when God created the human race, He did not intend for us to die. Death is a consequence of sin. In the age after the fall, however, humans slowly deteriorated, and originally, they were blessed with long lives. But we learn in Genesis 6 that God limits the lifespan of mankind to 120 years. This is a consequence of our continued rebellion towards God. But in either case, a long life, life itself, miracles, and all good things, are gifts from God.

 

[FaithT]

Well, God works in nature, and also above it; He uses nature to sustain the universe, but that does not mean that He is bound by the laws that He has set in place. For example, ordinarily, God feeds His creation through food from nature. However, at times He also feeds supernaturally, like when Jesus fed great crowds of people using only a few pieces of bread and a few fish (Matthew 14:13-21, Matthew 15:32-39), or as He feeds us with His body and blood in the Holy Eucharist (1 Corinthians 10:16). He's not constrained by natural law, but He is free to break it (Luke 8:25), and the reason He breaks it is to show us something important — namely, Jesus Christ. So, instead of doubting that something occurred, it's more profitable to consider what the amazing miracles mean for us!

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are packed with miracles. These miracles do not occur naturally — if they did, they wouldn't really be miracles — rather, they are exceptional works of God recorded for us in history. The Apostle John through the Holy Spirit tells us exactly why these miracles occurred — that they were not fundamentally for the benefit of those to whom it happened, but for us. He writes (John 20): "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these [miracles] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

However, I noticed you included the long age of Methuselah, and that is a bit different. Originally, when God created the human race, He did not intend for us to die. Death is a consequence of sin. In the age after the fall, however, humans slowly deteriorated, and originally, they were blessed with long lives. But we learn in Genesis 6 that God limits the lifespan of mankind to 120 years. This is a consequence of our continued rebellion towards God. But in either case, a long life, life itself, miracles, and all good things, are gifts from God.

But the miracles in the OT had nothing to do with proving Jesus was the Messiah. Are all of those miracles a daily occupancy or rare and what was the purpose of God doing all of them?

 

[tampasteve]

Were these events occasional supernatural miracles or daily occurrences?

The OT spans a very, very long time. I would not think that the miracles it documents, and the ones it does not, were common occurrences.

 

[FaithT]

The OT spans a very, very long time. I would not think that the miracles it documents, and the ones it does not, were common occurrences.

That makes sense.

 

[J_B_]

But the miracles in the OT had nothing to do with proving Jesus was the Messiah. Are all of those miracles a daily occupancy or rare and what was the purpose of God doing all of them?

Proving Jesus? If you mean that in some scientific sense, then no. But the entirety of Scripture is the story of the Christ. So, in that sense, the OT is very much about pointing toward Jesus.

 

[J_B_]

That makes sense.

The miracles of a Biblical scale are, by definition, rare. God's participation in our lives is as frequent as you partake of the sacraments. In other words, God has provided the means for you to experience a daily miracle.

There is this common myth that miracles only happened in Biblical times, but that's not the case. Studies have shown that claims of miracles are as common now as they ever were. Of course you have to make allowances for charlatans, but God is very active in the world, and that is a miraculous thing.

 

[Daniel9v9]

But the miracles in the OT had nothing to do with proving Jesus was the Messiah. Are all of those miracles a daily occupancy or rare and what was the purpose of God doing all of them?

No, all the miracles in the Old Testament point to Jesus; that's their true purpose. The miracles before Christ point forward to Christ, and those after Christ point back to Christ, and those Jesus performed in His earthly ministry reveals to us who He is and why He came — to fulfil the Old Testament promises, and that we may believe in His name. So, all miracles have the same purpose: To show us Christ.

Perhaps I can give you one example.
1. God ordinarily feeds people through nature. (Luke 12:24)

2. God has the power to feed people in a way that is above natural law, because He is the Creator and ruler of natural law. God miraculously fed His people in the desert with bread (manna) from heaven. He did this to (A) sustain them out of His Fatherly love and to illustrate His power, (B) to keep His promise that the Messiah would come from their line, and (C) to show us Christ.

3. Christ fulfilled this miracle, showing us that it has a higher purpose (C). That is, the miracle was not about feeding one nation in one era, but to show us the true bread that is for all everywhere of all time. And the provision is not only for our bodies for a time, but our bodies and soul, and it has eternal value. So the manna in the desert is a true miracle, but it points us to an even greater miracle, which is Jesus Christ.

Our Lord explains this to us in John 6, where He says of Himself: "I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

So, in short, whenever God exercises His divinity and does miracles, we can know them to be true and know that they find their proper purpose in Christ.

Blessings! +

 

[FaithT]

No, all the miracles in the Old Testament point to Jesus; that's their true purpose. The miracles before Christ point forward to Christ, and those after Christ point back to Christ, and those Jesus performed in His earthly ministry reveals to us who He is and why He came — to fulfil the Old Testament promises, and that we may believe in His name. So, all miracles have the same purpose: To show us Christ.

Perhaps I can give you one example.
1. God ordinarily feeds people through nature. (Luke 12:24)

2. God has the power to feed people in a way that is above natural law, because He is the Creator and ruler of natural law. God miraculously fed His people in the desert with bread (manna) from heaven. He did this to (A) sustain them out of His Fatherly love and to illustrate His power, (B) to keep His promise that the Messiah would come from their line, and (C) to show us Christ.

3. Christ fulfilled this miracle, showing us that it has a higher purpose (C). That is, the miracle was not about feeding one nation in one era, but to show us the true bread that is for all everywhere of all time. And the provision is not only for our bodies for a time, but our bodies and soul, and it has eternal value. So the manna in the desert is a true miracle, but it points us to an even greater miracle, which is Jesus Christ.

Our Lord explains this to us in John 6, where He says of Himself: "I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live for ever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

So, in short, whenever God exercises His divinity and does miracles, we can know them to be true and know that they find their proper purpose in Christ.

Blessings! +

I’ve started another thread going that goes with this one. LCMS ~ Chariot of Fire

 

[Roymond]

For those who are LCMS, how many of you believe the Old Testament stories, especially their details, are literally true? For instance Enoch (or was it Elijah?) flew to heaven in a chariot, or Methuselah living to almost 1000? Etc.
Besides Jesus believing the OT stories, what evidence do you have they’re true?

@Daniel9v9

I used to be LCMS.
It depends on the "story", because they weren't all written in the same kind of literature. Once the Old Testament gets to David and the kingdom, the writing is reasonably close to what we think of as history, but before that there are all sorts of varieties! Methusaleh falls into that bunch, and there's some evidence from ancient literature that the ages given were meant to have some meaning other than just counting the years, but it's pretty obscure. Elijah and the fiery chariot falls into the "reasonably close to what we think of as history" category, so it's probably meant to be taken literally. It's interesting that archaeology keeps confirming more and more of the historical-type stuff, for example the existence of Solomon, which was once questioned, is now beyond doubt (they even think they've found his great stables).
A comment on the "Jesus believing the OT stories" bit: very few of the Savior's references to Old Testament material is actually put in a way that recognizes it as historically real, only that they were authoritative stories -- weird to us, but definitely an understanding among the Jews of the time. They had a different understanding of how truth worked, and Jesus spoke in accordance with their understanding, not ours, just as the older parts of the Old Testament were formed according to the times and places, not according to ours.
At any rate, once it's into pretty-much-history mode, there's no reason at all to not believe, whether it's going to heaven in a chariot, fire from heaven burning up altars, or a young man brought back to life.