Law vs Grace

[BobRyan]

Genesis actually demonstrated that what caused Adam's fall is 1) disobedience, and 2) lacking faith.
This at the same time illustrated or prophesied that humans' fall would be from disobedience (i.e., breaking Law) and lacking faith.

That said. Humans must be saved by faith alone not because they don't need to obey Law and commandments. It is because Law cannot be used to identify the righteous from the wicked. The only valid measurement which can be used to distinguish the righteous from the wicked is FAITH and faith alone.

That's why the Bible says that faith without work is dead. If your faith is not reflected in how you obey the work of Law, it is not true faith. You should not take Law as a burden though. It works the other way round. When your faith increases, its power will allow you to obey Law and commandments in a better way.

Matt 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3-4 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

WHERE

"the first commandment WITH a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 in that still-valid unit of TEN.

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- it is not "either OR"

Obedience to the Word of God is not legalism according to Christ - Mark 7:6-13

 

[Sidon]

New Covenant: Jer 31:31-34 in OT. has Law written on the heart. new heart, adoption, sins forgiven
New Covenant: Heb 8:6-12 in NT - is unchanged from OT case
Deut 6:6 - Law written on the heart.
Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory -- before the cross.
Gal 3:8 - Gospel preached to Abraham

The "one time eternal sacrifice of God's blood", is the New Covenant.
Its not found as the old covenant.

Abraham is indeed the father of our faith, however, in the "time of the Gentiles", where we exist, its the Blood of Jesus that is offered as the Gift of Righteousness. This is not the old testament, or old covenant.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 7:6-13
6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Christ teaches that obedience to the Word of God - is not legalism

See also Matt 19:17 if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not give false testimony; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18

 

[Sidon]

Matt 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

You can keep the commandments and go to hell.
Do you know why, BobRyan?

And, the devil has his "ministers of righteousness" who FAKE FRUIT.
These can be GREEK TRANSLATORS and NEW BIBLE VERSION TRANSLATORS.
Did you know that?
Now you do.
So, you have to be able to discern, or your verse will find you in a cult, and you dont realize it.

also, its not the doers of the law who go to heaven.. Its only the BORN AGAIN.
This is why Jesus said...>"you must be born again".

 

[BobRyan]

The "one time eternal sacrifice of God's blood", is the New Covenant.
Its not found as the old covenant.

Jer 31:31-34 -- Old Testament

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

So that is

• a new heart - with the law of God written on the heart - vs 33 (born again)
  
• Adoption into the family of God - vs 33
• forgiveness of sins - vs 34

And verbatim the same text in Heb 8:6-12

No wonder then -- Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory -- before the cross.

No wonder then - Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- it is not "either OR"

 

[BobRyan]

also, its not the doers of the law who go to heaven.. Its only the BORN AGAIN.
.

Rom 2:13 is not an argument against being born again -- neither is the born again description in the New Covenant - in Jer 31:31-34 an argument against being born again.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

Justification in Rom 2:13 is a gospel concept as Paul points out.

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.


Heb 8:6-12 tells us that it is Christ speaking at Sinai - those are HIS commandments according to Paul in Heb 8. No wonder Christ refers directly to them in Matt 19 when asked about eternal life..

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the Bible

Matt 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified."
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- it is not "either OR"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
1 John 5:3-4 "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

You can keep the commandments and go to hell.
.

You are quoting "you" again as source and proof of your position

The result is - your argument is "with the text"

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 2 - the difference between saved-vs-lost in the gospel Judgment of Christ future to Rom 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
..
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

 

[Sidon]

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law..

No doer of the law is righteous before God, as "all have sinned and fallen short".

Righteousness does not come by the Law, as if it did there would be no need for The Cross.

 

[Sidon]

Here is the Bible

You are quoting "you" again as source and proof of your position

No actually I quoted the verses.
I do this all the time.
And my "position" is, "Justification by faith, without the deeds of the law".
Same as Paul's.

 

[Sidon]

but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

You have an issue.
Its this..
You are teaching that salvation comes by the "law"..

And "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".

So, it'll be difficult for you to figure that out, but, you can ask me questions and i'll try to help you, or you can read my many Threads, and see if God will show you Pauline Theology, as His Revelation of "Justification by Faith".

Or you can keep sitting there committing the "error of Cain".

Its really up to you to decide.
And thats on you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have no issue with your scriptures, i only have an issue with your Legalsim that twists them.
Also, ."trinity" is not found in the bible.
And neither is : Donald Trump.
There are lots of words that are not found in the bible.

You never provided a response back to any scripture I posted. The scriptures speak for themselves and I did not need to interpret them. You are free to believe as you wish, we all have free will but there is only one Truth and one Gospel. I believe Jesus when He said If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You have an issue.
Its this..
You are teaching that salvation comes by the "law"..

And "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW".

So, it'll be difficult for you to figure that out, but, you can ask me questions and i'll try to help you, or you can read my many Threads, and see if God will show you Pauline Theology, as His Revelation of "Justification by Faith".

Or you can keep sitting there committing the "error of Cain".

Its really up to you to decide.
And thats on you.

You do understand there are two sets of laws right? The commandments of God and the law of Moses. The law of God is not called a curse.

God's laws and God are called:

Good Luke 18:19 1 Timothy 1:8
Holy Isaiah 5:16 Romans 7:12
Perfect Matthew 5:48 Psalms 19:7
Pure 1 John 3:2,3 Psalms 19:8
Just Deuteronomy 32:4 Romans 7:12
True John 3:33 Psalms 19:9
Spiritual 1 Corinthians 10:4 Romans 7:14
Righteousness Jeremiah 23:6 Psalms 119:172
Faithful 1 Corinthians 1:9 Psalms 119:86
Love 1 John 4:8 Romans 13:10
Unchangeable James 1:17 Matthew 5:18
Everlasting Genesis 21:33 Psalms 111:7,8

The law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21, Galatians 3:10 not God's laws. If you read these scriptures in context, it makes it clear. Paul also distinguished between the two:
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

 

[BobRyan]

Here I merely "quote the text" of Rom 2

Rom 2 - the difference between saved-vs-lost in the gospel Judgment of Christ future to Rom 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
..
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

You have an issue.
Its this..
You are teaching that salvation comes by the "law"..

1. Not correct.
2. It is the mere quote of the text of Romans 2 that gives rise to your strong objection to it.

Romans 4:8
Romans 3:21-28

Salvation is Christ on The Cross.
That is none of you.
So, give Him credit, and stop trying to take it.
.

Vitriol and false accusations when confronted with a Bible text you don't approve is not a compelling form of argument.

For your information Paul's statement in Romans 2 was not presented to the reader as an argument against Romans 3 or 4.

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 2 - the difference between saved-vs-lost in the gospel Judgment of Christ future to Rom 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life;

8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek,

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
..
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

So that is where we see Paul saying


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
..
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

So this obedience is "in the context" of the Gospel

No doer of the law is righteous before God, as "all have sinned and fallen short".

Righteousness does not come by the Law, as if it did there would be no need for The Cross.

All have sinned - Rom 3:23 but Paul is speaking in context of the Gospel in Romans 2. So before we are quick to condemn Paul in his Romans 2 statement - notice this --

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus

And it is in reference to the new covenant work of the Holy Spirit "circumcising the heart" vs 29 and "writing God's Law on the heart" vs 15

No wonder then we have Romans 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

Since as Paul says in Rom 8:4-12 the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" by contrast to the saved, born-again saints.

Rom 8:
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

 

[HIM]

Consider that the reason God created the "New Covenant", is because God "found fault" with the First.

What fault? A covenant is an agreement between two parties. The found fault was not on God's end but on those to whom He made the Covenant with. On those whom broke their part of the agreement.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So, He ended the 1st Covenant, by becoming the New Testament.

God offers a New Covenant through Christ.
What is the difference between the two Covenants? God puts His Laws, His Word in our hearts and minds through Christ through Faith. He changes us through His Spirit. Through Faith The law, God's Word through Christ and His Spirit is finally established, made part of each and everyone of us who come to God through Christ.

Talk about grace. That is grace, a gift above all gifts.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[Sidon]

You never provided a response back to any scripture I posted.

I only respond to the way you misuse the verses to teach your Legalism.
If you want me to respond to a verse, then post the verse, and i'll open it.
If you post your theology, using a verse, i'll only respond to your theology, by correcting it.

 

[Sidon]

You do understand there are two sets of laws right? The commandments of God and the law of Moses. The law of God is not called a curse.

.

Look here..

"jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the LAW".

That's the Law. There are over 600 of them.
Check them out sometime.

Now, Look again,

"we are become DEAD to the LAW".

See that? That is what the Cross accomplished for the the born again.

So, if you want to teach.."keep the law" then find yourself here... Galatians 1:8

 

[Sidon]

Here I merely "quote the text" of Rom 2

2. It is the mere quote of the text of Romans 2 that gives rise to your strong objection to it.

Romans 4:8
Romans 3:21-28

Salvation is Christ on The Cross.
That is none of you.
So, give Him credit, and stop trying to take it.
See, you can't keep yourself saved.
Trust Christ instead, as only his Blood can save you and keep you saved.
Believe it, BobRyan.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I only respond to the way you misuse the verses to teach your Legalism.
If you want me to respond to a verse, then post the verse, and i'll open it.
If you post your theology, using a verse, i'll only respond to your theology, by correcting it.

I just quoted scriptures. There are a lot of references to keeping God's commandments, ignoring them and taking what Paul has said out of context does not make them go away.

The devil was thrown out of heaven for sinning, which is breaking God's laws. Every government has rules, even our Savior. His rules are perfect. We are shown throughout the Bible His laws are the perfect way to love and respect our Savior- Commandments 1-4 and the perfect way we treat each other Commandments 5-10. Disregarding these rules shows a lack of respect and love to our Savior who personally wrote them with His own hand and spoke them with His own voice and than stored them in the Most Holy of God's Temple. Our bodies are the Temple for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19 inside God's Temple are His laws written in the heart now and fulfilled when we obey.