• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Law of sin and death?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Dave-W, May 6, 2019.

  1. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

    +769
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Well it seems that he has left without answering any of the questions. Some that I think are very important especially here in this community.

    However, I would love to thank him for the chance to teach him the truth that Messianic Judaism has to offer the Christian church. And also the chance that was given to just simply preach these truths to the larger Christian community here. Baruch Hashem!
     
  2. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    The promise is of the "righteousness" of faith; faith is based on the law. How would Paul know "right"-eousness without the law? You need to explain what Paul the son of a Pharisee is saying (Romans 7:7)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  3. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    Amen.
     
  4. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    The circumcision in the flesh shall be a SIGN of the covenant between YHWH and Abraham (Genesis 17:11). When you are driving your car and you see a red stop sign,you must observe the sign, obey the traffic. That red stop sign serves a purpose; you must obey the traffic sign. Now we know a red stop sign seems everlasting, the stop sign never changes, no matter who disobey the traffic law. The sign from circumcision always remain the same, freshly circumcision can never become uncircumcision. So what is Paul the son of a Pharisee saying? The Pharisees are not saying what you think they are saying (2 Peter 3:16).
     
  5. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    You have it all mixed up

    Consider

    Romans 4:3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness...12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,”
     
  6. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

    +769
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Yes, you do and you are, accountable to every word you distort.

    John 4:22
    22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

    Romans 11
    11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!

    5 So in the same way also at this present time there has come to be a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained; but the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened—

    11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!

    12 Now if their transgression leads to riches for the world, and their loss riches for the Gentiles, then how much more their fullness! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.

    16 If the firstfruit is holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, it is not you who support the root but the root supports you.

    Do not be arrogant, but fear— 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

    23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

    25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

    “The Deliverer shall come out of Zion.
    He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
    27 And this is My covenant with them,
    when I take away their sins.”

    29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 in like manner these also have now been disobedient with the result that, because of the mercy shown to you, they also may receive mercy.
     
  7. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

    +769
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    Isn't Paul great! I would like to know how the Spirit has taught you in regards to Romans 11.

    Are you preaching mercy and reconciliation to us Jews?
    Is not our calling from God as Jews irrevocable?
    Are you ignorant to the mystery of how the fulness of the Gentiles leads to all Israel being saved?
    Are you preaching about Israel's deliverance or Jews fading away all together?
    Are you preaching that Jews can be grafted back into their native tree supported by it's Hebrew root and still remain Jews?
    Aren't you teaching others here that as people of the circumcision we have been cut off from Christ?
    As a Gentile are you proclaiming the fulness of Israel, or do you use scripture to imply that we are cursed dogs?
    Do you only teach that Israel has stumbled?
    Are you preaching that the elect who received what Israel was seeking can not be the physical circumcised seeds of Abraham?
    Are you attempting to teach that at this present time there are no Jewish circumcised believers under grace?
    Do you believe at this present time there is a remnant of Israel that is chosen by God's grace?
    Has God rejected the Jews because of her stumbling?
    Do you believe salvation is of the Jews?

    As a guest here, would you please answer some of these questions? Your honesty and humility are at stake, as is the reputation of the Christian faith you represent. Because it does appear that you are not here for any other reason than to troll. Teaching what is a centuries old heresy to the very people it was directed at.

    Without an honest answer to at least some of these questions your integrity is greatly in question here.

    What has the Spirit written on your heart, can you answer these questions with your own words? Or will you continue to use scripture against itself?



    Care to humble yourself or will arrogance continue to be your banner?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    What you do not understand is that when Abram was called he was a nomad. Abram was a sojourner; he walked by faith living in tents. Paul the son of a Pharisee, "born" from the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the 8th day was a tentmaker (Acts 18:3). We know that tents are a temporary "mobile" dwelling place, not subject to property taxes. Do you also dwell in tents so that your faith is not subject to any local laws? Faith is based on the law; a holy, legal, "right"-eous, lawful faith. If faith is not "born" or "given life" from the law; how is it that the violation of the law is sin? Do you know also that anything against faith is sin (Romans 14:23)? Have you not read that faith without works is dead (James 2:26)? You post scriptures but you are not capable of explaining them, giving them "breath" or real world application.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    I don’t distort words I simply quote them against your doctrine that seems to be enough to trouble some.
     
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    I’m trying to stick with scriptures in here they answer clearly and some cannot bear my explanations and get fearful and troubled so I stick with scripture. If we were in a different setting, perhaps in person I would speak much clearer and bolder in the Lord to you. You would clearly be exposed and corrected.

    But as to Israel, I believe they are still in God’s great plan and as Paul said. I don’t teach “replacement theology”. But I do believe as Paul said,

    Galatians 3:28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

    I believe these words from Paul,

    Romans 11:1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,..5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded8. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear ) unto this day.9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:...10. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.12. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

    And yes many Jewish believers were following Christ but as we read in Acts 21 they were still struggling with the law and customs and the old covenant was fading away ready to vanish. But it did not happen quickly for many.
     
  11. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    Paul says follow him as he follows Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). In other words Paul did not go around posting or quoting scriptures; he wrote his own letters "explaining" the scriptures. Big difference from what you do on this forum; anyone devoid of Torah can copy and paste. You have failed to properly explain Torah like Paul the son of a Pharisee.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  12. Mercy74

    Mercy74 Mercy Messianic Judaism

    397
    +67
    United States
    Messianic
    Single
    Do you understand that you are posting a teaching from a legal, lawful Pharisee when you quote Paul the son of a Pharisee (Matthew 23:3)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  13. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

    +769
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    As circumcised Jews? As the physical nation of Israel?Answer the question or display your biased agenda.

    Again you failed to address any of my questions. You are not being truthful open nor honest. You witness is completely wasted by your lack of integrity. You have proven nothing and have nothing to offer.

    And please don't project your angst on me again. You are more of a disappointment than anything. It's extremely disappointing to have those who say they know and love our Messiah to still after all Christianity has done against the Jews be treating us with this type of contempt.

    May God have mercy on you.

    Do you always believe condemnation will draw others to Messiah?

    Since you refuse to answer the questions I will take your silence as affirmation. Until you prove otherwise.
     
  14. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +507
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Psalms 145
     
  15. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +507
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    "Blessed are the merciful........."

    Instead of using vague terms concerting the word covenant. Clarify what is fading according to ole sh'aul.

    According to Torah, David and his counterpart in transgressing could of very well been put to death.
    Read and study closely what his own son used against him.

    Listen and be.....
     
  16. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

    +507
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Of the promises given in covenant to Avrhm with a shegoat and heifer(red) and the milk of each provision offered till a ram.

    Consider the milk(knowledge) of the Word till a child is ready.

    With this thought consider what is fading.
    Till a Nazarene is ready for the meat(honey/ understanding) is given to dry bones.

    The wall of separation is destroyed like doubt in those who are bold.
     
  17. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,513
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    No.

    Paul never gave an inch to ANYONE, either before or after his "conversion."
    And that is a PERFECT example of Paul being as hard nosed as ever.
     
  18. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

    +15,513
    United States
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    LoveOfTruth, do you recognize the DISTINCTION of lifestyles and callings between Gentile and Jewish believers?
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    Yes Paul was all things to all men as he said.i could give many examples But Paul also said things like this,

    Romans 14:1. Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.2. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ....14. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died....19. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.20. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.21. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.22. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.23. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
     
  20. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,524
    Christian
    The Old Covenant was slowly fading away and ready to vanish, and God allowed a time of transition or reformation to the Jews. But this by no means says they should stay in the old.

    You should not put new wine in old wine skins.
     
Loading...