Law of Moses written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant

[BobRyan]

There are Christians here under severe persecution who are committed to worshiping Christ alone, being beaten, and some killed. They heard the gospel of Christ from others and believed. They cannot read the Bible and neither are allowed to own or get one. And no they do not know about keeping one day a week holy day and some civil/ceremonial laws. They are poor and work all days so they can feed their own. They are threatened every day to death yet they persevere in faith. Now, it doesn’t seem to me that God would call them to be lawlessness.

James 4:"17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth"

?do they have a "love of the Truth"?If they always seek to accept the light they have - and love to find more light. They are fine.
?do they have internet? Satellite radio?

Incredible Circumstances Lead to New AWR Stations Worldwide | Adventist World Radio

Hello @BobRyan Irrespective of what resources they have or not, they love the Lord

Glad to hear it.

hey love the Lord to death and live a pure life with regard to moral laws. They live under severe persecution and cannot change their circumstances by themselves

Hence "the details" in the texts I point out above -

James 4:"17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

In such circumstances, it is wise not to burden them with regards to keeping of Sabbath

That is not my decision. I am happy to have evangelism going on.

and some ceremonial things that are not feasible where they live.

I don't promote ceremonial laws.

Would you say God will hold them guilty if they knew about Sabbath but could not acheive it though they sincerely wanted to? Since they cannot change their circumstances, they have no other choice but to wait for God to interfere and change the circumstances for them to keep the Sabbath .

God knows their circumstances -- notice what Moses says to Pharaoh - that Israel could not worship God as He commanded while in Egyptian slavery. But I am not the one who draws those lines - God does.

 

[GospelS]

I'm surprised to hear this. I've been told that India has more religions than any other country in the world.

On the other hand, I had a customer here in the U.S., who is from Africa (I forgot which country; but it probably doesn't matter.) His father parents were from India. He moved to the U.S. and Married an Indian woman here. She is Hindu. He is not very religious; but he has Hindu and Christian influences. His wife was asking him to come to her congregation with her; but when he would go; he would make people angry; because he would mention Jesus. He would ask them why they were getting angry that he follows Jesus. He would tell them that Hinduism is so close to Christianity; that they were following Jesus and didn't even know it. He would ask them, "what's the difference?"

I don't necessarily support his views, nor his approach; but I would be interested in your opinion on these points.

Hello @HARK! I would say that if Hindus carefully study their books they will find some hints pointing to Messiah, which they don't do. So they are unaware of whom they ought to seek and therefore they do not have the truth. Since that guy was influenced by Hinduism and Christianity, I think he is able to connect the dots little bit. I would suggest that guy to prove to those people from their own books if he could do that study @HARK! .

 

[expos4ever]

unless you believe that Christ is not in fact God - there is no difference.

The readers will know your version:

FAITH comes by hearing - and hearing by the WORD of God

....differs in a critical respect from the more accurate translation:

FAITH comes by hearing - and hearing by the WORD of Christ"

You have, as I will show below, demonstrated a clear propensity for what almost has to be intentional distortion. Here, you need to bend this verse into something that refers to the Law of Moses. So you offer those translations that use the term "God". That, of course, suits your agenda - it is very reasonable to conclude that the "word of God" is indeed the Law of Moses.

But the original Greek is Christou. And the "word of Christ" certainly need not be understood as the Law of Moses.

You pull this stunt all the time. Even though corrected on it multiple times, you insist on this inaccurate translation of 1 John 3:4

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

....when the more accurate translation is this:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

Do you suppose readers do not know what you are doing?

 

[expos4ever]

As you have been repeatedly shown both KJV in 1 John 3:4 and the NASB in James 2 fully agree that sin IS "transgression of the LAW"

Huh? You are bordering on bearing false witness.

We all know what the two translations you cherry-picked say!

The point, and surely you must know this deep down, is that the original Greek does not say "the law"

So, since you know this, you must be intentionally trying to mislead readers.

 

[swordsman1]

Well if you read the Bible more you find that it says this ---

John 17:17 "sanctify them in Thy Truth -- Thy WORD is Truth"

2 Thess 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 14 "I AM the way the TRUTH and the life"

Having no love of the Truth is having no Love of the Word of God. No desire for it.

I never said Christians have no love for the bible.

Gentiles do not become Christians by having "no LOVE of the TRUTH" the "WORD of God"

Gentiles become Christians by being convicted of their sins - by the moral laws that are written in their heart, which is not the 10 commandments as they do not have the scriptures. When they hear the gospel ("the word about Christ" Rom 10:17), they repent of their sins, put their trust in Christ, and are saved.

You still haven't answered my question which I have asked several times. Don't you think it strange that the Gentiles instinctively know how to keep 9 of the 10 commandments, yet the one that is not inherently moral - sabbath keeping - they have no natural knowledge of?

 

[swordsman1]

Earlier manuscripts rejected as defective by the Christian church at the time - were being johnny-come-lately adopted by 20th century Bible translators "as if" these corrupted discarded-by-the-Christians-of-their-day manuscripts were "superior".

They used the rule "earlier is more accurate even if it was tossed in the trash by those contemporaries who had access to better manuscripts and knew of its defects"

That's not true. The 4th century manuscripts were not rejected the KJV translators. They never used them because they didn't have access to them. Codex Sinaiticus wasn't discovered until the 19th Century and Codex Vaticanus was locked away in the Vatican. The 12th century Textus Receptus was the best manuscript they had at the time.

 

[swordsman1]

No one has made the case that God's Word is defective as compared to "instinct".

I never said God's word is defective.

No one has made the case from "exegesis" that when Jeremiah wrote the text of the "NEW Covenant" that he and his readers understood the term "LAW of God" to exclude the TEN Commandments written by God himself on stone.

Jer 31 says the New Covenant is not like the old covenant...

v32 "I will make a new covenant... not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day"
​

This law is written in people's hearts, not on tablets of stone....

v33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it;​

Hebrews, after quoting Jeremiah, tells us the old covenant is now obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.​

Paul tells us that the scriptureless Gentiles have this new law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.​

Rom 2:29 "circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."​

More Bible please.

Sure...

The Sabbath is not a moral law because the priests were allowed to profane it...

Matt 12:5 "Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?"​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because Jesus allowed people to break the Sabbath...

John 5:10 “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’”​

Matthew 12:11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out?
​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because Jesus himself broke it.....

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because God said he could no longer bear the Israelites observance of it. God would never say that about the observance of a moral law....

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.​

 

[swordsman1]

1. No text says "the Law is a school master but just to the Jew".

The scriptureless Gentiles do not have the law. Even believers who are familiar with the old covenant law are no longer under it.

Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."​

2. Gentiles in the synagogue on Sabbath hearing gospel preaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

The people in those synagogues were not Christians! Paul was "reasoning" and "trying to persuade" the people there to become Christians!

3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing in Isaiah 56:6-8

No, the people in this verse were "foreigners who join themselves to the Lord," ie Jewish proselytes.

4. "ALL MANKIND" to worship on Sabbath for all eternity after the cross Isaiah 66:23

No, that verse is simply an illustration of weekly and monthly regularity. It is saying that from month to month and from week to week, God’s people will worship Him. "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "from week to week." If you wish to take it literally then we should also expect to hold a worship service on every day there is a new moon!

5. the LAW of God condemns "ALL the World" and in fact "every mouth" according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20 where that LAW of God is the one where "The first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - Eph 6:1-2

Read Rom 3:19 again. It says the law "speaks to those who are under the Law". That is Jews only.

6. Rom 3:19-20,23 The LAW of God leads all mankind to Christ by first convicting them of SIN - which is the "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Ditto. The law can only convict those who have have the law...the Jew only. Not the gentile who has never read it.

 

[HARK!]

I agree there are more than 9 laws written on our hearts.

So you gave me false testimony before?

The law that is engrained on our hearts is not the 10 commandments (Heb 9:8)

How would you know this? Did you read this in scripture? Why would you have to do that: why wouldn't it be written on your heart? By the way; you're misapplying (Heb 9:8).

There are many other sins that we instinctively know are wrong without reading about them in the bible.

You're contradicting yourself again. Before you said it was 9. Why do you keep talking about the Bible? Didn't you just say in another post that, you're not required to read it? Actually James seems to disagree with you.

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

The ger toshav coming out of Egypt were given the Torah. There are certain bare minimums that are expected for the stranger while he learns to become a full member of Israel in the covenant. James pulled those 4 directly from Leviticus, as those laws apply to the stranger in the land. It's important to realize that the ger toshav coming out of Egypt entered the full covenant at Sinai. At that point they were not guests. The were Hebrews with the full rights and privileges of Israel. Yahshua was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of Israel; and YHWH's renewed covenant is with Israel.

but 9 of them are covered by that unwritten law

How do you test the spirits that laid this on your heart without the written law?

No gentile instinctively knows that breaking the saturday sabbath is wrong

Ahh.. The the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. Nice choice. How did Abraham know?

nowhere does the bible charge gentiles with breaking it, unlike the others.

Those without the law will die without the law. Why do you keep talking about the Bible? I thought that you said that gentiles are not required to read it. James would disagree with you. He says that the ger toshav are to be in the synagogue every Shabbat, listening to the Torah.

That leads me to believe the 4th commandment does not apply to gentiles. Unlike the others it is not inherently moral but rather a ceremonial law that applies to Jews only.

Well then you are being led in opposition to the gospel.

 

[HARK!]

The Sabbath is not a moral law because Jesus allowed people to break the Sabbath...

Yahshua didn't break Sabbath. That was a false accusation. Why would you sustain a false accusation?

therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

 

[BobRyan]

The scriptureless Gentiles do not have the law.

1. I am a gentile and I have a Bible.

2. It is the "gentiles" in the synagogue in Acts 13 that ask for more gospel preaching brought to them "Next Sabbath"

3. It's both Jews and gentiles gettting gospel teaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

4. It is the church in Berea that "study the scripture daily to see IF those things spoken to them by Paul are so". Acts 17:11

And the result of all those gentiles studying the scriptures?

"12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."​

That law includes the "Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 which we are to keep as do the saints in Rev 14:12..

Which means it is "still a sin" even for Christians to 'Take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

 

[Dkh587]

The law is a schoolmaster to the Jew who knows about the law, not to the Gentile who has never read the scriptures. They know what is right and wrong without reading the law....

Rom 2:14-15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."​

And they become believers by hearing the word about Christ, the gospel.

Rom 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ."​

Gentiles don’t have the law, therefore they do not know the law.

Gentiles cannot do all of what’s right, because they do not know God’s law. Obeying God’s law is what is right in the eyes of God Deuteronomy 6:17-18, 2 Kings 22:2

Humans are born with the ability to understand that the concept of right and wrong exists, but they do not know God’s law because you have to read his law to know what it says. Josiah had to read the law to know what it says 2 Kings 22:11-13

if Gentiles magically have the law in their heart, then it would contradict Paul’s previous statement that Gentiles perish without having the law, and Israelites who have the law will be judged by the law, because the headers of the law are not righteous before God, the doers of the law are declared righteous before God Romans 2:12-15.

Knowledge of sin comes by reading the law - Romans 3:20

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I never said God's word is defective.



Jer 31 says the New Covenant is not like the old covenant...

v32 "I will make a new covenant... not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day"
​

This law is written in people's hearts, not on tablets of stone....

v33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it;​

Hebrews, after quoting Jeremiah, tells us the old covenant is now obsolete.

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.​

Paul tells us that the scriptureless Gentiles have this new law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.​

Rom 2:29 "circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."​

Sure...

The Sabbath is not a moral law because the priests were allowed to profane it...

Matt 12:5 "Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?"​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because Jesus allowed people to break the Sabbath...

John 5:10 “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’”​

Matthew 12:11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out?
​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because Jesus himself broke it.....

John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.​

The Sabbath is not a moral law because God said he could no longer bear the Israelites observance of it. God would never say that about the observance of a moral law....

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.​

You are really clueless

 

[BobRyan]

I never said Christians have no love for the bible.

I would hope all Christians - even us gentiles would love reading the Word of God

 

[BobRyan]

if Gentiles magically have the law in their heart, then it would contradict Paul’s previous statement that Gentiles perish without having the law, and Israelites who have the law will be judged by the law, because the headers of the law are not righteous before God, the doers of the law are declared righteous before God Romans 2:12-15.

Knowledge of sin comes by reading the law - Romans 3:20

well... there you have it.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 3:24-25 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."​

The role of God's Law, God's Commandments, for the lost is to "convict of sin" Rom 3:19-20 "Every mouth" in fact "all the world". For "ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23 and "just the jews have sinned". All need the gospel. Rom 3

The people in those synagogues were not Christians! Paul was "reasoning" and "trying to persuade" the people there to become Christians!

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so"

They don't "suddenly lose their Bible" when they become a Christian.



Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity, after the cross, in the New Earth

No, that verse is simply an illustration of weekly and monthly regularity.

No such thing in all of scripture as "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "weekly regularity" but not actually from Sabbath to Sabbath. No text demands such extreme inference.

If you wish to take it literally then we should also expect to hold a worship service on every day there is a new moon!

Indeed we would in that "New Earth" of Rev 21 since at that time there would be TWO creation events to hold in memorial. One in Genesis 1-2 and one in Rev 21:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

The law is a schoolmaster to the Jew

I like most members of my church "am a gentile" but I have a Bible.
The gentiles of Acts 17:11 also had access to scripture

1. No text says "the Law is a school master but just to the Jew".
2. Gentiles in the synagogue on Sabbath hearing gospel preaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing in Isaiah 56:6-8
4. "ALL MANKIND" to worship on Sabbath for all eternity after the cross Isaiah 66:23
5. the LAW of God condemns "ALL the World" and in fact "every mouth" according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20 where that LAW of God is the one where "The first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - Eph 6:1-2
6. Rom 3:19-20,23 The LAW of God leads all mankind to Christ by first convicting them of SIN - which is the "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Not according to Romans 3:19-20 - all "every mouth" and "All the world" are under condemnation of the LAW as sinners who are in violation of it and in need of the Gospel... not "just jews".


Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” ... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Its the moral law of God where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment according to Eph 6:1-2

Read Rom 3:19 again. It says the law "speaks to those who are under the Law". That is Jews only.

Which as Romans 3 points out - is all.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Ditto. The law can only convict those who have have the law...the Jew only. Not the gentile who has never read it.

James just pointed out for us - that that is everyone with a Bible.

from page 1 of this thread -


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

 

[HARK!]

1. No text says "the Law is a school master but just to the Jew".

LOL!

...but that what is some of these people are saying. Some of them even say that they don't need a schoolmaster to bring them to Messiah. They must know a different way.

 

[swordsman1]

So you gave me false testimony before?

No, I never said there were ONLY nine. I said the laws written on our heart "includes nine of the 10 commandments." (Post #31)

How would you know this? Did you read this in scripture? Why would you have to do that: why wouldn't it be written on your heart? By the way; you're misapplying (Heb 9:8).

Sorry I mistyped the scripture reference. It should be Heb 8:9 not Heb 9:8.
The new covenant is "Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;" (Heb 8:9)

How do you test the spirits that laid this on your heart without the written law?

Rom 2:16 "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

Ahh.. The the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. Nice choice.

If it is fallacy then give me an example of a scriptureless gentile that claims he instinctively knows to keep the Saturday sabbath.

How did Abraham know?

What makes you think Abraham kept the sabbath?

Why do you keep talking about the Bible? I thought that you said that gentiles are not required to read it.

Why do you keep misrepresenting me?

James would disagree with you. He says that the ger toshav are to be in the synagogue every Shabbat, listening to the Torah.

No James didn't say that. And in any case in Acts 15 he was speaking about Gentile believers, not the scriptureless gentiles spoken of in Romans 2.

 

[swordsman1]

Yahshua didn't break Sabbath. That was a false accusation. Why would you sustain a false accusation?

John was stating a fact, he explained why the Jews were seeking to kill him...

"This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."​

John did not say "the Jews wrongly accused him" of breaking the Sabbath.

Or was John lying?