Law of Moses written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
What they subsequently read in the bible would be discovered knowledge (should it apply to them), not something written on their hearts.

Where did you get the idea that God cannot write one of His commandments on your heart "if you read it first"?? where does that text come from?

By contrast -- we have this
"FAITH comes by hearing - and hearing by the WORD of God" Rom 10 KJV

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. NKJV

17 so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God, YLT (Young's Literal translation)

I am talking about a Gentile

I presume that gentile has "faith" - so then where did that faith come from?

Romans 10 has the answer.

At no point does the Bible claim that if you get something from the Word of God - -then that is the part of the Law of God that cannot be written by God on the heart.

Notice the context for Jeremiah 31:31-34 does not say "That part of the Law of God that you did not read first".

"IF they will not hear Moses NEITHER will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16

But some will say "I thought Christ came to oppose the writing of Moses" -- however notice that in Matthew 17 it is "Moses and Elijah" standing in glorified form "WITH Christ" before the cross -
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
He instinctively knows that activities such as murder and adultery are morally wrong and sinful .

And he instinctively knows he should read and accept the Word of God - rather than avoid it.

I think we are in more agreement here than you may have at first supposed.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
If the law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Yahshua; and Yahshua is the way; and during his whole ministry, he was teaching obedience to the Torah; do you know of another way?

The law is a schoolmaster to the Jew who knows about the law, not to the Gentile who has never read the scriptures. They know what is right and wrong without reading the law....

Rom 2:14-15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them."

And they become believers by hearing the word about Christ, the gospel.

Rom 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ."
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
By contrast -- we have this
"FAITH comes by hearing - and hearing by the WORD of God" Rom 10 KJV

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. NKJV

17 so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God, YLT (Young's Literal translation)

In the original Greek the word is "Christ". The KJV and its derivatives use a very late 12th Century Greek manuscript as its source compared to the much earlier and hence more reliable 4th Century manuscripts that most other translations use.

NIV Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
NASB So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
RSV So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
ESV So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
LEB Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
etc

It certainly does not say "So faith comes by hearing the LAW."

It is the word of Christ, the word about Christ, that saves. ie hearing the gospel. Reading the 10 commandments will not save you.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
And he instinctively knows he should read and accept the Word of God - rather than avoid it.

"Thou shalt read the bible" is not one of the 10 commandments.

Nine of the ten commandments the Gentile instinctively knows without reading Exodus 20 because it is written on his heart. However the other commandment, the one about observing the Jewish sabbath, is not written on his heart. Don't you think that's strange?
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
It is not the law. "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, "

What is the difference between "the law", and "the requirements of the law written on their hearts?" Didn't YHWH say that he would write his law on our hearts? What law are these requirements of?
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
What is the difference between "the law", and "the requirements of the law written on their hearts?" Didn't YHWH say that he would write his law on our hearts? What law are these requirements of?

One is the written law that the Jews were given. The other is the unwritten law that is instinctively engraved on our hearts. That includes nine of the 10 commandments. But no one instinctively knows to observe the Jewish sabbath.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
One is the written law that the Jews were given. The other is the unwritten law that is instinctively engraved on our hearts. That includes nine of the 10 commandments. But no one instinctively knows to observe the Jewish sabbath.

I have more than 9 written on my heart; and they can be found in the Torah. For example, It's instinctively engraved on my heart that I shouldn't be a drunkard, or a homo, or lay with animals, or eat vultures. How do you explain this? Is it OK for Gentiles to do these things?
 
Upvote 0

GospelS

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!
Supporter
Aug 1, 2017
2,638
2,569
35
She is The Land!
✟441,830.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are Christians here under severe persecution who are committed to worshiping Christ alone, being beaten, and some killed. They heard the gospel of Christ from others and believed. They cannot read the Bible and neither are allowed to own or get one. And no they do not know about keeping one day a week holy day and some civil/ceremonial laws. They are poor and work all days so they can feed their own. They are threatened every day to death yet they persevere in faith. Now, it doesn’t seem to me that God would call them to be lawlessness.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
There are Christians here under severe persecution who are committed to worshiping Christ alone, being beaten, and some killed. They heard the gospel of Christ from others and believed. They cannot read the Bible and neither are allowed to own or get one. And no they do not know about keeping one day a week holy day and some civil/ceremonial laws. They are poor and work all days so they can feed their own. They are threatened every day to death yet they persevere in faith. Now, it doesn’t seem to me that God would call them to be lawlessness.

I'm surprised to hear this. I've been told that India has more religions than any other country in the world.

On the other hand, I had a customer here in the U.S., who is from Africa (I forgot which country; but it probably doesn't matter.) His father parents were from India. He moved to the U.S. and Married an Indian woman here. She is Hindu. He is not very religious; but he has Hindu and Christian influences. His wife was asking him to come to her congregation with her; but when he would go; he would make people angry; because he would mention Jesus. He would ask them why they were getting angry that he follows Jesus. He would tell them that Hinduism is so close to Christianity; that they were following Jesus and didn't even know it. He would ask them, "what's the difference?"

I don't necessarily support his views, nor his approach; but I would be interested in your opinion on these points.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟250,347.00
Faith
Christian
I have more than 9 written on my heart; and they can be found in the Torah. For example, It's instinctively engraved on my heart that I shouldn't be a drunkard, or a homo, or lay with animals, or eat vultures. How do you explain this? Is it OK for Gentiles to do these things?

I agree there are more than 9 laws written on our hearts. There are many other sins that we instinctively know are wrong without reading about them in the bible. To your list I would also add hatred, violence, bad tempers, lust, witchcraft, etc.

The law that is engrained on our hearts is not the 10 commandments (Heb 9:8) but 9 of them are covered by that unwritten law - sins that we instinctively know are wrong. But the 4th commandment is notably absent. No gentile instinctively knows that breaking the saturday sabbath is wrong. Strange huh? And nowhere does the bible charge gentiles with breaking it, unlike the others. That leads me to believe the 4th commandment does not apply to gentiles. Unlike the others it is not inherently moral but rather a ceremonial law that applies to Jews only.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
"Thou shalt read the bible" is not one of the 10 commandments.

Well if you read the Bible more you find that it says this ---

John 17:17 "sanctify them in Thy Truth -- Thy WORD is Truth"

2 Thess 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 14 "I AM the way the TRUTH and the life"

Having no love of the Truth is having no Love of the Word of God. No desire for it.

Romans 10 "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God"

Gentiles do not become Christians by having "no LOVE of the TRUTH" the "WORD of God"

More Bible please.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There are Christians here under severe persecution who are committed to worshiping Christ alone, being beaten, and some killed. They heard the gospel of Christ from others and believed. They cannot read the Bible and neither are allowed to own or get one. And no they do not know about keeping one day a week holy day and some civil/ceremonial laws. They are poor and work all days so they can feed their own. They are threatened every day to death yet they persevere in faith. Now, it doesn’t seem to me that God would call them to be lawlessness.

James 4:"17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth"

?do they have a "love of the Truth"?If they always seek to accept the light they have - and love to find more light. They are fine.
?do they have internet? Satellite radio?

Incredible Circumstances Lead to New AWR Stations Worldwide | Adventist World Radio

 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
In the original Greek the word is "Christ". The KJV and its derivatives use a very late 12th Century Greek manuscript as its source compared to the much earlier and hence more reliable 4th Century manuscripts that most other translations use.

Earlier manuscripts rejected as defective by the Christian church at the time - were being johnny-come-lately adopted by 20th century Bible translators "as if" these corrupted discarded-by-the-Christians-of-their-day manuscripts were "superior".

They used the rule "earlier is more accurate even if it was tossed in the trash by those contemporaries who had access to better manuscripts and knew of its defects"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
One is the written law that the Jews were given. The other is the unwritten law that is instinctively engraved on our hearts. That includes nine of the 10 commandments. But no one instinctively knows to observe the Jewish sabbath.

No one has made the case that God's Word is defective as compared to "instinct".

No one has made the case from "exegesis" that when Jeremiah wrote the text of the "NEW Covenant" that he and his readers understood the term "LAW of God" to exclude the TEN Commandments written by God himself on stone.

I prefer exegesis over eisegesis "inserts of preference".
I prefer the Bible

More Bible please.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The law is a schoolmaster to the Jew

I like most members of my church "am a gentile" but I have a Bible.
The gentiles of Acts 17:11 also had access to scripture

1. No text says "the Law is a school master but just to the Jew".
2. Gentiles in the synagogue on Sabbath hearing gospel preaching "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4
3. Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing in Isaiah 56:6-8
4. "ALL MANKIND" to worship on Sabbath for all eternity after the cross Isaiah 66:23
5. the LAW of God condemns "ALL the World" and in fact "every mouth" according to Paul in Rom 3:19-20 where that LAW of God is the one where "The first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment - Eph 6:1-2
6. Rom 3:19-20,23 The LAW of God leads all mankind to Christ by first convicting them of SIN - which is the "transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GospelS

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!
Supporter
Aug 1, 2017
2,638
2,569
35
She is The Land!
✟441,830.00
Country
India
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
James 4:"17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."
John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is Truth"

?do they have a "love of the Truth"?If they always seek to accept the light they have - and love to find more light. They are fine.
?do they have internet? Satellite radio?

Incredible Circumstances Lead to New AWR Stations Worldwide | Adventist World Radio


Hello @BobRyan Irrespective of what resources they have or not, they love the Lord to death and live a pure life with regard to moral laws. They live under severe persecution and cannot change their circumstances by themselves. In such circumstances, it is wise not to burden them with regards to keeping of Sabbath and some ceremonial things that are not feasible where they live. God has welcomed them and we should let the Holy Spirit take authority. Would you say God will hold them guilty if they knew about Sabbath but could not acheive it though they sincerely wanted to? Since they cannot change their circumstances, they have no other choice but to wait for God to interfere and change the circumstances for them to keep the Sabbath and other ceremonial things.
 
Upvote 0