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Law needs to be known by subjects

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by cloudyday2, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    When managing people it is important to have written rules that all the employees read and sign. This idea that the law should be known before the violators can be justly punished seems essential. Hammurabi famously engraved his laws in stone. Moses or God did the same according to the Bible. Apparently Caligula posted the tax laws in such fine print and so high that his subjects could not read them. A more modern example that comes to mind is Saddam Hussein whose laws were ad hoc. In many cases Saddam would become frustrated and immediately shoot his subjects. Saddam essentially was the law himself.

    The God of the Bible appropriately wrote some laws for Moses, and Muslims believe that God updated these laws for Muhammad. The problem is that many people do not believe the religious texts where these laws are defined. This is somewhat like Caligula where the laws are available if your eyesight is good enough to read the fine print at a distance.

    God needs to make His authority and His rules clear to everybody before He can claim to be just IMO. God cannot JUSTLY punish me for breaking His rules when I do not believe His religious texts are true.
     
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  2. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    All human beings know God's laws sufficiently to be judged.
     
  3. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Can you give a few example of such laws? The Ten Commandments contains very little that I would describe as universally obvious. Maybe "thou shalt not murder" would qualify.

    According to the New Testament, everybody has sinned and deserves to be punished. We are not restricting the condemnation to murderers.
     
  4. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I don't believe in the Greek-Roman Pagan God types that your describing. God isn't sitting somewhere on a golden throne throwing lightening bolts, causing world wide floods or punishing anyone for breaking rules.
     
  5. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Apparently it is a great white throne rather than a golden throne. ;)
     
  6. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]Rom 2:14 - for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

    Rom 2:15 - who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
     
  7. Jonathan kerr

    Jonathan kerr New Member

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    If a dispute can’t be settled by the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ, which essentially are forgive everything as God gave his perfect sinless son up so you could be forgiven. Then it reverts back to the laws of Moses.
     
  8. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    There once was a town, everyone went about their buisness,
    generally everything ran smoothly.

    In the middle of the town was a townhall with a tower,
    on the tower was a clock,
    the towns people would go off to each their daily doings,

    but they always began by setting their clocks right by the townhall clock.

    Until there came a newcomer to the town,
    he thought it was no need,

    "Listen", ha said, "why bother staring up at the clock so high up, better would be if we lowered the clock,
    in that way each can then adjust the townhall clock after each their own clock."

    And so it was, the town was never the same again.
     
  9. Jonathan kerr

    Jonathan kerr New Member

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    There is the law of Moses, which deals with everything. I can’t exactly remember which books they are in or Abraham, I can’t remember I’ll put some hours in tomorrow and find out
     
  10. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Thanks, let me know if you think of anything other than "thou shalt not murder". There are probably other universally obvious laws, but none is coming to mind.

    EDIT: "thou shalt not steal" is probably another example although there have been cultures that admire tricksters. In fact it is possible that Jacob's trickery is an example for Hebrews. The popularity of Coyote in American Indian folk tales is another example. Or maybe it is envy of characters in folk tales who get away with things that normal people cannot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  11. Robban

    Robban -----------

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    Said Moses,
    "Master of the universe, this Torah You are giving me,
    what is written in it?"
    !I am the L-rd your G-d,
    who has taken you out from the land of Egypt,"

    "What else does it say?"
    "You shall have no other gods.
    Do you dwell among idol worshipping nations?"

    "What else does it say?"
    "Honour your father and mother.
    Do you have parents?"

    "What else does it say?"
    "Remember the Shabbat.
    Do you work?"

    "What else does it say?"
    "Do not swear falsely.
    Do you do buisness?"

    "What else?"
    "Do not murder,
    do not commit adultery,
    do not steal.
    Is there jealousy among you?"

    Pretty straightforward.
     
  12. Arthra

    Arthra Baha'i

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    Yes you would not be accountable... Baha'is are informed about our laws or ordinances and on becoming a Baha'i they sign a Declaration Card that they understand there are certain laws to follow... An Australian Card has the following:

    "I wish to become a member of the Baha’i community. I accept Baha’u’llah as the Bearer of God’s Message for this Day and will endeavour to follow His teachings and the Baha’i way of life. I also accept the authority of the institutions which administer the affairs of the Baha’i community."

    (Australian Baha’i declaration card)

    So in the process of becoming a Baha'i the ordinances are also explained and there can be consultation about them. Non-Baha'is are not accountable for Baha'i laws/ordinances and those who choose to leave the Faith are not held accountable.
     
  13. Carbon

    Carbon Wondering around...

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    @cloudyday2 you are tragically misunderstanding the purpose of rules.

    The purpose of rules is to protect and benefit the governors not the governed. If you have ever read a corporate Human Resources Manual, you have noticed the rules were designed to be unintelligible or, when intelligible, totally self-contradictory. Such that no one can follow them. This is painfully obvious to anyone who fails to be likable to their enlightened boss.

    In the religious context, Jesus says as much to the rich man. Who can enter the kingdom of heaven? With man this is impossible, but with God everything is possible. The rule book is not about the rules, rather it is a tool for substantiating the need for, and obedience to, the god/boss/whatever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  14. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    Coincidentally I was having some related thoughts this afternoon. What makes a religion endure through the centuries? Part of the answer is a religious text that is sufficiently ambiguous to be interpreted differently as times change.

    Imagine if the Human Resources Manual could be interpreted by creative Rabbis. The policy on drug testing might be a metaphor for some secret truths known only to upper management. ;) (not meaning to single-out Rabbis for ridicule of course, but they seem to be pretty ingenious some times)
     
  15. Carbon

    Carbon Wondering around...

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    @cloudyday2

    Except that most employees would never read an HR manual, which is boring by design, because they assume boring = unimportant. Actually in the corporate world the reverse is true. Exciting = unimportant. When you notice yourself being bored by a particular meeting, or email, or company newsletter, ask "why would they want me to not pay too much attention to this?". I for one use strategic boringness on a daily basis. It's one of the best ways to get controversial stuff done.

    The job of the corporate Rabbi (upper management) is to create visible zero-stakes dramas like employee of the month awards to distract the faithful (worker bees) from the Rabbis' invisible high-stakes dramas like M&A and C-level placements. Similarly you experience the world of ordinary matter as if dark matter and dark energy don't exist, even though on the large scales of time and space they dominate the physical universe.
     
  16. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The only way to know truth is to read religious scriptures with honesty and no bias and believe God will show me the true path. If you are sincere it's important for God to show you the path because if you are sincere and read all the religious books with Sincerity God can't blame you for not following the right path because you can claim your sincerity and say you wanted to follow the truth but it was not made clear
     
  17. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    Indeed. Most of the Ten Commandments are straightfoward and obvious to people of sufficient reason. So that's why people are without excuse.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    Except we believe that the rules were created by a loving God and are not arbitrarily chosen, but reflect that relationship we were made to have with the Creator.
     
  19. Noxot

    Noxot tohu and bohu Supporter

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    I think people see God as a law giver due to their weakness of spiritual vision. the law is something that to me is like my current understanding of reality. a greater vision of God and how he does things would be one of much activity and deeply embedded in reality itself.

    the biblical laws are often irrational because we are not really supposed to understand them rationally, we are supposed to understand them supra-rationally, in communion with God. if there is no Holy Spirit then why care about any so-called laws that are claimed to be Gods? either there is the possibility to have communion with God or there in not. either God matters to us or he does not.

    if we are his image then we can find him and his laws in ourselves, heck we are his very laws every time we represent and live with him in our experience. there is no escape from laws, they are everywhere and the nature of them is that on their own they are death and not enough because laws are already for the dead. the dead are those who do not do goodness and so must be told of the dead remains of a goodness. laws are being but real life is more than being, it is also becoming.

    still, I would rather have the weight of the bible laws set upon my body than I would the weight of my nations laws, which would literally kill me and of which I could never read all of them.

    read this in a few hours.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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