Latest debate - Muhammad hijab vs David wood, did anyone watch this?

[Barney2.0]

Yes, it's what you call a minority.



No, it, doesn't, and even if it did it would be a minority.



You're the one saying that Christians in general are misguided, not the Quran.


What utter tosh.



Are you seriously saying that an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path is somehow an insult or a threat?

These verses are actually the majority, infact why don’t you read Surah Al Waqi’a the entire Surah is practically on the horrors of hellfire and judgement day. Once more you have nothing relevant to say, Christians are the misguided ones and Jews are the ones who have earned Allah’s wrath, read Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Faithful ask for and abide by Guidance

only Muslims are blessed in Islam if your not Muslim your Kaafir (a non believer) and not blessed. No more comments from you please, at this point your trolling.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yes, it's what you call a minority.



No, it, doesn't, and even if it did it would be a minority.



You're the one saying that Christians in general are misguided, not the Quran.


What utter tosh.



Are you seriously saying that an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path is somehow an insult or a threat?

These verses are actually the majority, infact why don’t you read Surah Al Waqi’a, most of the Surah is practically based on the horrors of hellfire and judgement day. Once more you have nothing relevant to say, Christians are the misguided ones and Jews are the ones who have earned Allah’s wrath, read Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Faithful ask for and abide by Guidance

An appeal to Allah’s guidance is only if your Muslim, Christians are the misguided ones and Jews are the ones who’ve earned Allah’s wrath Muslims are blessed in Islam if your not Muslim your Kaafir (a non believer) and not blessed. No other religion except Islam will get one into paradise according to the Quran:

“And whoever seeks a religion other than islam, it will never be accepted of him” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

No more comments from you please, at this point your just trolling.

 

[Theo102]

These verses are actually the majority

You are lying again. The single verse from Surah Al-Fatiha that mention anger and the misguided is not a majority because a single verse is not a majority of the seven of Al-Fatiha. Likewise the single surah of Al Waqi’a is not a majority of the 114 suras of the Quran.

Christians are the misguided ones

No, that is not what the Quran says.

Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously—will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Surah 2:62

No more comments from you please, at this point your just trolling.

You argue that an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path is somehow an insult or a threat, and now you accuse me of trolling after I pointed out that you are lying about the existence of a majority of Quranic texts which support your argument.

 

[Barney2.0]

You are lying again. The single verse from Surah Al-Fatiha that mention anger and the misguided is not a majority because a single verse is not a majority of the seven of Al-Fatiha. Likewise the single surah of Al Waqi’a is not a majority of the 114 suras of the Quran.



No, that is not what the Quran says.

Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously—will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Surah 2:62


You argue that an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path is somehow an insult or a threat, and now you accuse me of trolling after I pointed out that you are lying about the existence of a majority of Quranic texts which support your argument.

You changed your original argument to save face you said Surah Al Fatiha is a Surah of guidance when the last part of it is a curse for Jews and Christians to hellfire according to all authentic interpretations of the last part. I told you that you may read the Quran yourself and find out, stop pestering me. Once more misquoting the Quran, the Quran is referring to those Jews, Christians, and Sabians who accept the original scriptures, the last day, and accept all the Prophets down to the last one Mohammed. The Quran says none, but Islam are accepted of you to believe in:

10540

 

[Theo102]

You changed your original argument to save face

No, I didn't. My argument has always been about you misrepresenting a minority as a majority. I expect that you're wrong about the minority as well, but that's a different argument.

you said Surah Al Fatiha is a Surah of guidance

No, I said that is was an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path (#20).

the last part of it is a curse for Jews and Christians to hellfire according to all authentic interpretations of the last part.

You don't get to define what an authentic interpretation of the Quran is.

 

[Barney2.0]

No, I didn't. My argument has always been about you misrepresenting a minority as a majority. I expect that you're wrong about the minority as well, but that's a different argument.


No, I said that is was an appeal to Allah for guidance to the straight path (#20).


You don't get to define what an authentic interpretation of the Quran is.

It’s not an argument, as I specifically told you to read the Quran yourself instead of trolling me. An appeal to Allah for guidance also seems to include cursing Jews and Christians to hellfire. I don’t define what an authentic interpretation of the Quran is, authentic Islamic scholarship does, I’m not the one who chose Ibn Kathir and others as the most reliable Tafsir. I already proved with authentic Islamic scholarship that in Islam Christians and Jews don’t go to heaven, but hell. So please stop attempting to show your knowledgeable on my former faith.

 

[Theo102]

So now you've moved on from lying about the existence of a majority of verses which support your argument to pretending that my argument doesn't exist. Why should anyone care about what you think they should do? The appeal for guidance (Surah Al Fatiha) obviously doesn't include a curse like you say. You haven't proved anything other than that you're unable to tell the truth about Islam.

 

[Barney2.0]

So now you've moved on from lying about the existence of a majority of verses which support your argument to pretending that my argument doesn't exist. Why should anyone care about what you think they should do? The appeal for guidance (Surah Al Fatiha) obviously doesn't include a curse like you say. You haven't proved anything other than that you're unable to tell the truth about Islam.

I told you to read the Quran yourself and see, only Islam is accepted from people according to the Quran and Muslims, the last part of Surah Al Fatiha includes a curse for those who have earned Allah's wrath (Jews) and those who have been misguided (Christians). Only Muslims get guidance not Non Muslims. I have no idea why your so eager to try to defend the Quran when its message is obvious. So please leave me alone if you can't address my points or don't have anything relevant to say.

 

[Theo102]

I told you to read the Quran yourself and see, only Islam is accepted from people according to the Quran and Muslims, the last part of Surah Al Fatiha includes a curse for those who have earned Allah's wrath (Jews) and those who have been misguided (Christians). Only Muslims get guidance not Non Muslims. I have no idea why your so eager to try to defend the Quran when its message is obvious. So please leave me alone if you can't address my points or don't have anything relevant to say.

You can't stop lying about the Quran, can you? The last part of Surah Al Fatiha obviously doesn't include any curse:

6. Guide us to the straight path.
7. The path of those You have blessed, not of those against whom there is anger, nor of those who are misguided.

Quran in English - Clear and Easy to Read.

 

[DogmaHunter]

You do understand the meaning of majority right, this verse itself has a threat of punishment, for those who are misguided meaning Christians or Nasara and those of whom there is anger the Jews or Yahoud. Those who are not blessed in Islam are cursed to hellfire. Because if your blessed your a Muslim. Sarah Al Fatiha precisely supports my position please don't teach me a Surah which I was required to memorise every night before bed by my parents. Let me repeat, stop replying to me if you have nothing relevant to say.

Because Christendom is not an exclusive little club where you only get to go to heaven if you have a membership card, which requires belief in something about a crucified jew called Jesus, right?

Tell me, what's the alternative of this heaven again?

 

[Barney2.0]

Because Christendom is not an exclusive little club where you only get to go to heaven if you have a membership card, which requires belief in something about a crucified jew called Jesus, right?

Tell me, what's the alternative of this heaven again?

Actually salvation isn’t so easy, it’s not just based on faith alone. Salvation is a progress that lasts a lifetime. Nor does the Bible describe hellfire as the Quran does. So I missed your point.

 

[Theo102]

Actually salvation isn’t so easy, it’s not just based on faith alone.

But according to Pauline Christianity it is:

Acts 26
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

But wait, what?

Acts 22
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Actually salvation isn’t so easy, it’s not just based on faith alone. Salvation is a progress that lasts a lifetime. Nor does the Bible describe hellfire as the Quran does. So I missed your point.

Off course you missed the point. That's because you have bible blinders on.

Your point was about how you are required to be a muslim to be able to enter paradise.

My point is that it is just as required to be a christiand to be able to enter the christian version of paradise.

Now you come back with some siliness that merely being a christian is not enough.
Well, surprise, merely being a muslim isn't either.

But in both cases, the membership is the first requirement.

My point was not about how hellfire is described in the bible, furthermore.
I don't care how it is described or if the quranic version is more colourfully described.
I'm sure that in both cases, it is a place of untold infinite suffering, so who cares anyway.

Stop playing that holier-then-thou game with your religion.
Because on the points being addressed here (at least) both of them are exactly the same.

Exclusivity clubs and to hell with those who don't have a membership card.

 

[Barney2.0]

But according to Pauline Christianity it is:

Acts 26
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

But wait, what?

Acts 22
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Actually faith alone is never taught in the Bible, its faith with good works, while not works of the law.

 

[Barney2.0]

Off course you missed the point. That's because you have bible blinders on.

Your point was about how you are required to be a muslim to be able to enter paradise.

My point is that it is just as required to be a christiand to be able to enter the christian version of paradise.

Now you come back with some siliness that merely being a christian is not enough.
Well, surprise, merely being a muslim isn't either.

But in both cases, the membership is the first requirement.

My point was not about how hellfire is described in the bible, furthermore.
I don't care how it is described or if the quranic version is more colourfully described.
I'm sure that in both cases, it is a place of untold infinite suffering, so who cares anyway.

Stop playing that holier-then-thou game with your religion.
Because on the points being addressed here (at least) both of them are exactly the same.

Exclusivity clubs and to hell with those who don't have a membership card.

Actually I missed your point because I personally don't see one, My original point was about how the Quran curses people or describes hell for the purpose of frightening people. I ant arguing against the concept of hell itself. Also you can't claim faith and salvation just by confession in Christianity. To enter paradise in Islam one must merely say the shahada. Furthermore in Islam anyone who believes in Tawhead and Mohammed's prophethood will eventually get to heaven, that includes evil Muslims, while good non muslims still go to hell. So they aren't the same.

 

[cvanwey]

Actually I missed your point because I personally don't see one, My original point was about how the Quran curses people or describes hell for the purpose of frightening people.

Yeah, it's a good thing the Bible does no such thing...

Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Revelation 21:8, John 3:36, Revelation 14:10, Mark 9:48, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 13:50, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Matthew 18:8, etc etc etc..........

I ant arguing against the concept of hell itself. Also you can't claim faith and salvation just by confession in Christianity.

You can't?

I guess all death bed conversions, or confession prior to a death sentence is all a sham. The next time a person is in hospice care, whom was not a professed believer, whom asks for a pastor, priest, minister, chaplin, tell them it is too late.

To enter paradise in Islam one must merely say the shahada. Furthermore in Islam anyone who believes in Tawhead and Mohammed's prophethood will eventually get to heaven, that includes evil Muslims, while good non muslims still go to hell. So they aren't the same.

And according to Christianity, anyone whom earnestly doubts that a man resurrected from the dead, because they honestly deem the evidence lacking, they are instead sent to a place of eternal damnation. Even if they were caring, helpful, loving, etc... Works mean nothing. Thought crime is punishable for eternity.

 

[DogmaHunter]

To enter paradise in Islam one must merely say the shahada

That isn't any more true then saying that to enter paradise in christianity one must merely accept christ's sacrifice.

Furthermore in Islam anyone who believes in Tawhead and Mohammed's prophethood will eventually get to heaven, that includes evil Muslims, while good non muslims still go to hell. So they aren't the same.

Plenty of christians tell me that "once saved, always saved" and "not saved: doomed".
How is that any different?

It's the same elitist club behaviour.
All about the beliefs.

 

[Barney2.0]

That isn't any more true then saying that to enter paradise in christianity one must merely accept christ's sacrifice.




Plenty of christians tell me that "once saved, always saved" and "not saved: doomed".
How is that any different?

It's the same elitist club behaviour.
All about the beliefs.

Let me rephrase my first statement anyone who says the Shahada will eventually get to heaven one way or another, however only people who preform all the things required of them in Islam get to heaven directly, since hell in Islam isn’t eternal for Muslims. Once saved always saved has its origins in the Protestant reformation of the 1500s. You can actually lose your salvation, there are instances of this happening in the Bible. Even in Islam I wouldn’t say that’s an elitist club behavior since your after all given the choice to condemn yourself or not.

 

[Barney2.0]

Yeah, it's a good thing the Bible does no such thing...

Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Revelation 21:8, John 3:36, Revelation 14:10, Mark 9:48, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 13:50, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Matthew 18:8, etc etc etc..........



You can't?

I guess all death bed conversions, or confession prior to a death sentence is all a sham. The next time a person is in hospice care, whom was not a professed believer, whom asks for a pastor, priest, minister, chaplin, tell them it is too late.



And according to Christianity, anyone whom earnestly doubts that a man resurrected from the dead, because they honestly deem the evidence lacking, they are instead sent to a place of eternal damnation. Even if they were caring, helpful, loving, etc... Works mean nothing. Thought crime is punishable for eternity.

I never made the claim that the concept of hell doesn’t exist in the Bible and I’d also challenge you to find biblical verses describing hell in the same method the Quran does, most people who only confess faith after a lifetime of sin, would have an uncertain faith in the next life, I wouldn’t say that they wouldn’t be saved and neither would I say that they’d be saved, there ultimate fate would be in God’s hands. Not everyone who was ignorant of the truth will end up in hell in Christianity.

 

[DogmaHunter]

... since hell in Islam isn’t eternal for Muslims.

That makes Islam's version actually more morally acceptable to me, which is funny, because your entire ranting point here, is to try and say the opposite................

Once saved always saved has its origins in the Protestant reformation of the 1500s. You can actually lose your salvation, there are instances of this happening in the Bible. Even in Islam I wouldn’t say that’s an elitist club behavior since your after all given the choice to condemn yourself or not.

Aah, there comes the mafia boss analogy.

Awesome.