1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

Large California school districts eliminate ‘D’ and ‘F’ grades

Discussion in 'News & Current Events (Articles Required)' started by ThatRobGuy, Dec 24, 2021.

  1. Nithavela

    Nithavela Make lemonade out of life

    +17,203
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    Sounds like the number of students who get a passing or failing grade and the quality of the education system isnt very well connected.
     
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,003
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    That goes without saying. However, the number of students who don't learn what IS worth learning, is also an indicator.
     
  3. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy Part of the IT crowd Supporter

    +11,762
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    If it was really just about making sure "everyone gets a passing grade", then why are D's being phased out? D is still a passing grade. Is it really about helping people who need it, or making sure that nobody graduates with anything lower than a 2.0 "so that nobody feels bad"?

    One of the big issues with eliminating D's and F's is that not every D/F comes from a place of "someone who needs a little additional help" or "bad teachers.

    I think, at the very least, the aspect of "students not taking it seriously" needs to at least be acknowledged.

    I got a D/F or two on a few homework assignments in my high school days, it wasn't because I had a bad teacher or because I didn't understand the material. It's because for certain homework assignments, I just didn't feel like spending the time to do them and had other things I wanted to go do (like loiter at the mall or go to a party), so I did the math in my head, realized that "this one assignment being tanked isn't going to drop my grade for the quarter by any significant amount...so I'm just not going to do it, or just scribble a bunch of stuff in so I can get to the party quicker"

    Under the described system, I could've just blown off the assignment for the weekend, and then they would just give me a mulligan on Monday.
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +15,261
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)

    Not everybody has aptitudes for STEM fields. Furthermore, I don't understand how this impacts STEM at all. Are you trying to imply that other subject areas don't have actual academic rigor?
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +15,261
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    The journalist and author, Christ Hedges, frequently points out that attacking the Humanities has been part of the agenda of the Right for decades. Because the Humanities are a necessary component of liberal democracy.
     
  6. Nithavela

    Nithavela Make lemonade out of life

    +17,203
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    It's also quite usefull in defending the obscene debt slavery of the USA, by pretending that anyone suffering from student loans should have just picked a more practical subject.
     
  7. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

    +5,224
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    how about just the ones that fail, that would be fair wouldn't it?
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,003
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    To be fair, to say, "attacking the Humanities has been part of the agenda of the Right for decades", is to overgeneralize and misunderstand the POV of the Right. Conservatives have no beef with true art and beauty, nor do they wish to destroy or even to underrate philosophy and so many other things.

    (A quick Google search: The humanities include the academic disciplines of philosophy, religion, languages and literatures, linguistics, history, and the arts. The arts include the visual arts, drama, and music. The humanities are those academic disciplines that study human culture.)

    Hedges, and apparently you, and from what I have heard from so many liberals, conservatives are a bunch of insensitive (and, usually, ignorant) oafs, that are all about hunting and gathering. But in truth, what conservatives have a problem with is the humanities being taught or promoted at the cost of basic subjects, and the perversion of the humanities, as though there was no objective truth or true beauty vs ugliness.

    We see a problem in the notion that humans are the perveyors of fact.
     
  9. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 864511320 Supporter

    +5,062
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    The private Christian school I attended my sophomore year of high school in the late 70s was similar. One had to make an '80' or above on a test to pass a subject segment.
    If the test was failed, you were allowed a do-over. If you failed a second time that subject section had to be repeated and the test given again.. repeat until passed.

    With 80 as the minimum there were no Ds nor Fs. There were only As, Bs, Cs and incompletes.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  10. Nithavela

    Nithavela Make lemonade out of life

    +17,203
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    What are "true arts" and what is not?
     
  11. rambot

    rambot Senior Member

    +9,867
    Christian
    Married
    CA-Greens
    As a teacher the no fail system chaps me. HARD.

    I don't have a problem with flexibility with assignments and due dates but if the work is of low quality it should fail.

    My district has had no fail for quite a while. It's frustrating to feel handcuffed when discussing student results.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  12. comana

    comana Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,902
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    I actually like this concept. Nothing below a B should be considered passing. Keep working on it till competency at a B level is reached. Unfortunately, this is impractical in public schools.
     
  13. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy Part of the IT crowd Supporter

    +11,762
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    While it's true that "not everyone has the aptitude for it" (that'd be technically true for any profession), quite a few people have the aptitude for it, they just choose something else that's not as viable.

    For instance, per the NCES data I posted earlier.

    Just a few examples:
    78k degrees conferred in Computer Science
    88k conferred in Performing Arts

    I'd say that higher percentage of people have the intelligence/aptitude/abilities required to get a decent job as a software developer as opposed to being a successful actor or a famous singer.

    And you can definitely see in the charts where the patterns have been shifting over the past few decades.

    The number of people going for things like performance arts and journalism exploded in the 90's.

    Part of it as a supply/demand issue (just about every company has a need for things like IT people, Accounting/Finance, Marketing/Sales), gainful careers in the performing arts and journalism are much harder to come by.

    The other part is that those fields are very much a "feast for famine" environment, there's not as many tiers or levels of those jobs where a decent living can still be achieved.

    To sort of highlight what I mean by that...

    Take someone who's in the field of accounting/finance/economics. One doesn't have to be a Janet Yellen/Warren Buffett/Paul Krugman level person to still make a decent living in that field. Those uber-high paying opportunities exist, but there are plenty of "rungs on the ladder" for people who aren't quite at their level to still make a good living.

    If you're an economics major who's in the 80th percentile in terms of skill/aptitude, you may not be able to be the next Secretary of the Treasury or CEO of a Wall Street investment firm, but you can still be a CPA, hold a higher level position in the accounting department of a private company, etc...
    upload_2021-12-26_10-13-46.png

    If you're a tech person who's in the 80th percentile, you may never be the next Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft or Apple, but you could still be a database administrator
    upload_2021-12-26_10-15-26.png

    The same isn't true for performing arts, there aren't a lot of "mid-level" positions in those fields. It's very much a "you're either the absolute best of the best, and wildly successful" or "you're a starving artist" dichotomy.

    I think since the mid-90's, people have gotten some unrealistic expectations, and as a result, have tried to gravitate toward the "sexier" "flashy" professions.
     
  14. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy Part of the IT crowd Supporter

    +11,762
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    I don't know how practical that's going to be.

    Everyone has different things they're good at.

    A person can be a borderline guru at one subject, and be a "C-student" in another subject.

    For instance, it's probably quite feasible to assume that there's several people who are very proficient in math & science, but would do very poorly in a public speaking or debate class, and the inverse would be true as well. Not everyone is going to be a Neil DeGrasse Tyson where they're excellent at both.

    Issuing grades that pretend that they are (or giving them an infinite amount of do-overs until they get a B) isn't particularly helpful. And I can see where that could eventually backfire.

    There is a difference between a person who can pick up the ideas and concepts right away vs. a person who needs 5x the amount of time and 15 do-overs in order to accomplish the same result.

    That's certainly not how it's going to work in the real world when there are things such as deadlines and a high level of importance attached to the concept of "getting it right on the first try".
     
  15. comana

    comana Senior Veteran Supporter

    +1,902
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    No doubt. It is not practical for all subjects or all students, but perhaps for the basics at least? I really like the Montessori model for primary school.
     
  16. MehGuy

    MehGuy A member of the less neotenous sex.. Supporter

    +9,955
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    Huh? Is this designed to help artificially close the racial grades gap?

    I personally have no problem with students redoing tests and assignments in order to attain a better grade. As long as you are learning and growing, I think you should be rewarded. Depends on what they mean by "incomplete". I don't think we should just be passing students who cannot do a satisfactory job in the course work. The reality is that some students just cannot cut it intellectually. Not everyone needs to go to college, some people are better suited at trade jobs (which can often make decent money).

    I know there is an IQ chart with professions and the average IQ needed to be competent in any given field. My IQ is only slightly above average. Realistically I'm going to have trouble with the higher intellect jobs like scientist, mathematician or lawyer. Perhaps I might be able to squeeze my way in if I studied ultra-hard, but it will be even harder (or next to impossible) for those who are below the bell curve. I shouldn't be able to just take classes and automatically pass. Even if I give my all. It just cheapens the system. I think we need to stop babying people and acknowledge that not everyone is equal. Provide students with realistic goals and pathways. While it's not all about intellect, often times it is a real barrier. If a student with lower intellect has other qualities like being extra studious that allows him/her to competently complete and understand classes that are statistically above his or her IQ level so, be it. But we shouldn't just be artificially messing with the system in order to make the students appear more equal than they actually are.
     
  17. dogs4thewin

    dogs4thewin dog lover CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +4,988
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    Yup I got a few 100+ grades in college for that reason not a lot though.
     
  18. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +10,116
    Presbyterian
    Single
    As I read the story, they do have a fail. It's called incomplete. They're not giving passing grades to students that don't pass.

    I'd like to know more about the implications. Does that mean the student has to do it again, hopefully with help? The claim is that this is part of "competency based education." In theory that means that to graduate you need to be able to do certain things, and a passing grade indicates it. Does that mean you don't graduate if you don't make up incompletes in core subjects? If so this could actually be tougher than giving people Ds.
     
  19. MehGuy

    MehGuy A member of the less neotenous sex.. Supporter

    +9,955
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    Ah, so this means the classes are possible to fail? While I do not think the idea is inherently bad, I do worry this is just being done or proposed to be done in order to attempt close the unsightly grade gaps between different groups. I could see this as a way of giving students a chance to game the system. If they fail, they'll see the answers they have wrong for example in a multiple-choice question and given the same test with the same questions to try again... and maybe again until they get a more equalized grade.
     
  20. MehGuy

    MehGuy A member of the less neotenous sex.. Supporter

    +9,955
    United States
    Atheist
    Single
    US-Others
    Wonder if the thought behind this is that "incomplete" is a more sanitized letter than "F" for fail. You're not a failure... you just didn't complete the course. Your ability is undecided in a sense. Also, the less grades in a ranking the more everyone appears as a whole to be closer together.
     
Loading...