L/A Limited atonement vs. general atonement

[Blackhawk]

*** Okay this is the 3rd of 5 threads about Calvinism vs. Arminism that I promised in the Round Table. I want to offer a few reminders though before we get started.

1. This is an in house debate. Non Christ-like behavior and name calling like "You are not a Christian" or "All Arminians or Calvinist are not Christians" will not be tolerated. Both sides are Christians. We can disagree and tell each other that the other is wrong but in a Christ like way and always rembering that both sides are Christian brothers and sisters. So do not be surpised if your post is deleted if it contains any of the above or anything in that same vein.

2. In my titles I might overemphasizes what each one teaches. For example both Arminism and Calvinsim teach Total depravity but Arminsism also teaches that God gives you only enough grace so that you can make a choice. so there is a human element although God does the saving. so I chose to overempahize that side in my titles to make it easy to distiguish between the 2 different sides.

3. There is a lot of misinformation about Calvinsim and especially Arminism. Web pagees are a bad source many times for information. So just watch out.

4. I will try to be as objective as possible but I will fail to some extent. So know that I come from a particular point of view. But again I will try to be as objective as possible.

5. I hope these threads will be a encouragement and a learning experience for everyone. If not then I will delete them myself. So if these turn into name calling matches like they can I will delete them. So no one ruin it for everyone else. okay?

BH6(this will be the first post in every thread)

 

[Blackhawk]

Calvinism

Limited atonement- God's redeeming work was intended to save His elect only and secured salvation for them. Christ's redemption secured everything that is needed for salvation including faith. Jesus did not die for all.

Arminainism
General atonement- Jesus' death was a payment for the sins of everyone but only the ones who have faith are saved. And this faith is not given to man by God it is just, like we said in the Total depravity thread, made possible by God. man still has to freely choose to have faith or not. So the death itself makes it possbile for us to be saved but does not make us saved unless we accept Jesus' gift.

 

[Christi]

I agree with Arminainism on this one. (I have never even heard of this, and today I find out I am one!!!)

 

[Blackhawk]

AS Christi has done I urge all to ask and seek to see which side you agree on all these points. One can be partly Calvinist and partly Arminian. I am. But just know also that these are just theological positions and we are 1st Christians and then whatever else. Whatever lines up with the Bible is true not what Calvin or ARminius said. I think everyone knows this but I am again just giving a reminder. And if you have any questions please ask.

BH6

Also know that these are Protestant view points. CAtholics have their own which are also Christian. They all can be called Christian because we are speaking of nonessentials. But anyways one can be a Calvinist, Arminian, CAtholic type or other or a combination of one or many other views. They are theological views of what the Bible says not the Bible itself so you can mix and match but be true to God and what the Bible says and also make sure you do not put two contradictory ones together and then act like they are not. I hopew this extra note of clarifcation helps all see how this is useful but how if not taken properly can be terrible.

 

[StogusMaximus]

I agree with Arminian on this point.

 

[Mandy]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

John 3:16

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to save the whole world from their sins, yet not all will be saved.
Jesus died for all of man's sins.

I am a calvinistic arminianist. My belief based on what I have studied is that the truth lies in the middle of the two.

 

[Reformationist]

This one is easy. If Jesus' death paid the price for the sins of all, who would go to Hell? Or, the Arminianist view holds the idea that the death of God is only an opportunity and is only made manifest if we, a being He created, does something. C'mon!! You guys can't actually believe God is so powerless that He needed His own creation so that He could enact His perfect Will?

This is how it is: Jesus' death paid the price for the sins of every single person that God intended. He's not wondering, He's never surprised. Not because He knows ahead of time, but because He decides ahead of time.

Here's an description of that type of conflict:

John (not my name) takes nine other people to the movies. John has $100 in his pocket. It costs ten dollars per person for a ticket. While we're in line ten more people show up with no money and John adds them to his group. There are also 5 people, with no money, behind John's group that aren't with John's group. When John gets to the counter the ticket person says, "Well, since you are buying 20 tickets we'll give them to you at half price."

Here is the symbolic definition:

1. John's group represents the elect.
2. The $100 represents the blood of Jesus.
3. John represents Jesus
4. The 5 people behind John represent the non-elect.

In this scenario a Calvinist would say that John knew all along that He would have enough money, in fact, John was the one who called the other ten people to show up. His money is only intended to cover his groups' tickets.

The Arminianist view would be if the ticket teller said, I'll give you these tickets for $4 apiece if you pay for the five behind you.

The reason John wouldn't do this, according to the Calvinist view, is not because he's a bad guy or because he has something against the five. By not paying for the five, the 19 that are with him to understand the significance of His paying for them and appreciate it that much more.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Mandy
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

A propitiation is a sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. This verse means that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient not only for John and his immediate community, but is valid anywhere in the world, at any time. It is a sacrifice that requires no addition or supplement, i.e. us accepting His death as real or meant for us personally.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

This is the same thing. Notice that in v.10 John reiterates that Jesus was sent to be the propitiation for our sins.

John 3:16

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to save the whole world from their sins, yet not all will be saved.
Jesus died for all of man's sins.

This is possibly the most misinterpreted verse in the bible. Jesus makes clear that the salvation of those whom the Father "gives Me," and only those, is not a mere possibility but an absolute certainty; "and they come to Me" (John 6:37-40; 10:14-18; 17:9). The point made by "the world" is that Christ's saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world throughout time. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes will not die (be separated from God) but live in God's presence forever.

God bless.

 

[Christi]

I'm sorry, but the Calvinist view to me sounds like a very cruel joke. It seems to be saying he created millions of extra people, knowing they would suffer in hell for eternity. The God I love wouldn't do that.

 

[StogusMaximus]

Calvinism - No hope! I have done what God has asked me to do, but if I am not part of the selected few, it is all for nothing. I will not know if I am saved until I die.

Arminainism - All hope! I know in my heart that when I accept the sacrafice of Jesus I am saved. I know from the moment I am born again that I will spend eternity with the Father.

 

[Blackhawk]

Stogus,

"Calvinism - No hope! I have done what God has asked me to do, but if I am not part of the selected few, it is all for nothing. I will not know if I am saved until I die."

Okay I do not want to give you a false interpretation of Calvinism. I hope I did not but if i did I am sorry. In the Calvinisitc view God is not going to turn away any who "Call upon the name of the Lord." That is because we are totally depraved. If one is not regenerated by the Spirit that person will not choose to what God wants. He will fight God and say no to God. That is because the person is totally dead. So God must regenrate them in order for them to make any choice for God.
And that is where the real differene lies. ARminianism says that God gives grace to all so that we can all choose God if we want to do that. Calvinism says that God will fully save us from start to finish. meaning that He gives us the faith all the way to the end. So it comes down to how far does God regenearat us before we confess and repent. A Calvinist would say that God's grace is effacious or effective in whatever it sets out to do. An Arminian would say that God gives the gift of true free choice in that He does not change our desires so that we will choose Him.

Does this help? I just did not want anyoneto think that a Calvinistic view of God is that God will turn away anyone who wants to go to Heaven.

BH6

 

[StogusMaximus]

I think I'm with you.

Calvinism - God doesn't turn away anybody who "Calls upon the name of the Lord", however He only gives certain people the desire/ability to "Call upon the name of the Lord". Am I on track? You can seek Him, but only if He allows you to.

Arminainism - Anybody can seek Him, because He allows/wants everyone to be saved.

Is this right?

 

[tericl2]

I would call myself "mostly" arminian, with some Calvinistic tendencies.

My personal problem with Calvinism is that they mostly (not all) do not strongly support or encourage missions. Mainly it is because they believe we are already predestined. A very simple example of this would be...Calvinist - "We have built a church and if God means for you to be saved then he will bring you to our door."

Obviously I disagree with this. If salvation is not open to everyone why are we commanded to take the Good News to all nations and all corners of the earth?

That said, no one can understand that Jesus is the Son of God without divine understanding imparted from God the Father. (See Matthew 16:13-20)

However, the Bible also says that no one will have an excuse because God has imparted knowledge of himself in all. Not sure where that is but I will try to find it. I just read it the other day in my Bible.

Salvation also comes by faith, which is a choice. God made us with free will, and while he , of course, knows what we will do, the choice is still up to us. This is the only action we must take....to believe and accept his gift of grace. Many believe but do not accept. Jesus said even the demons know and believe that he is the Messiah.

I think I just confused myself about what I am!!

 

[Blackhawk]

Calvinism- WE are dead and God regenerates us or changes our desires so that we will want to choose Him. Without this we won't

Arminianism- God gives all enough grace to chooseand then we choose whther we want to go to heaven or not. But it is a free choice. God must regenerate us to a point that we can have the option to choose God but He does not go farther unless we choose Him.

So in Arminianism one has more of a free choice than in Calvinism. In Calvinism God changes your desires so that you will choose it. They say it is not force upon you but God does change your desires enough so that you will always choose God. To tell you the truth i do not know how God could not be forcing salvation on us if He is changing our desires so that we will choose Him. but maybe someone else can answer that.

bh6

(sorry for being so long winded again)

 

[tericl2]

by Blackhaw6
They say it is not force upon you but God does change your desires enough so that you will always choose God. To tell you the truth i do not know how God could not be forcing salvation on us if He is changing our desires so that we will choose Him. but maybe someone else can answer that.

I don't believe he "changes" us until we accept him. i believe he only makes us receptive to the message, and from there we have to make a choice, which will be based on our view of what is in our own best interests. He can and does impart the knowledge to us though.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Blackhawk]

Tericl2,

it makes sense to me. i was just trying to give the Calvinistic view of things. i am an Arminian that has Calvinisitc tendencies.

BH6

 

[Mandy]

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save everyone. He did not die for just the "elect". For God so loved the world and is willing that none should perish.

 

[Blackhawk]

Okay this is the first of the big 3. Or LIP. these are the ones that alwaysseem to me to be the most debated.

I be in unlimited atonement but i thik i might be willing to go for limited atonement. that is if God knows who will be in the elect then why would jesus have to die for all? He knows who will choose.

I still choose unlimited atonement though because it seems more in line with the Bible. Cerses like John 3:16 that says that jesus died for the "world" seem to say that He did die for all. Also i think it would be weird to put out an offer to a person and not really make a provision for the offer. Even though the people He is making a provision for will not accept it still it would be kind ofdeceptive to say that they could but they could not really.

BH6

 

[tericl2]

I be in unlimited atonement but i thik i might be willing to go for limited atonement. that is if God knows who will be in the elect then why would jesus have to die for all? He knows who will choose.

That is the mystery. We will never know how it works until we go to meet God in Heaven. There are many things that our finite minds will never be able to understand. That is why we "live by faith, not by sight." (2 Cor. 5:7)

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Christi
I'm sorry, but the Calvinist view to me sounds like a very cruel joke. It seems to be saying he created millions of extra people, knowing they would suffer in hell for eternity. The God I love wouldn't do that.

Remember that God is righteous. God IS love. We were not born with the ability to generate a godly love. All we have is lust. Prior to our regeneration our love is always contingent on what we get in return. For all of you who believe that we seek or love God before He changes our hearts please reconcile the following verses for me:

1 John 4:19
We love Him BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

Romans 3:10-18
"There is NONE righteous, NO, NOT ONE;
There is NONE who understands;
There is NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
They have ALL turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is NONE who does good, no, NOT ONE."
"Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Additionally, it's important that we don't try to fit God into our idea of what is good. As per God's command, many young children were killed at the passover, just because they were the firstborn (Exodus 12:12). Was that fair? Were they responsible for the persecution of God's people? Did those children have a chance to accept God? What makes this action righteous is that God did it and everyone of us is unrighteous in God's eyes because we have a fallen nature.

Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Romans 3:10
"There is none righteous, no, not one"

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

As I said before, judgment is not unfair to the unrighteous (fallen man). What's unfair, but that we rejoice in, is that He does not hold Christians accountable because Jesus paid the price for their sins. That's unfair.

Originally posted by tericl2
My personal problem with Calvinism is that they mostly (not all) do not strongly support or encourage missions.

That's absolutely untrue. What Calvinists believe is that missions aren't the thing that changes people. No matter who spreads the Good News it's still God who changes the hearts of man. The missionaries are just one method by which God propagates His Word. What Calvinists say is that if you are one of God's elect, the words will not fall on deaf ears. It's God who opens the ears and eyes of men. The missionary could be the most prolific speaker but if God has not softened the heart of the recipient to the message, then it will not be effective. If God intends for you to be one of His children then you will be. If you don't understand this you will forever be lost in the quagmire or thinking that if someone dies before they are informed of God's saving message then they unfairly never had the chance. Listen, if God wants someone to hear the message and you feel called to inform them of His grace then do it. But, understand, if that person is of the elect, if you don't tell them, God will provide some other way. Give God a little more credit.

Originally posted by tericl2
I don't believe he "changes" us until we accept him. i believe he only makes us receptive to the message, and from there we have to make a choice, which will be based on our view of what is in our own best interests.

So, He doesn't change you until you accept Him, but He does make you receptive? Isn't making you receptive, changing you? So according to you, He makes everyone equally receptive, and some choose to spend an eternity burning in hell? I see.

Originally posted by Mandy
For God so loved the world and is willing that none should perish.

Originally posted by blackhaw6
Cerses like John 3:16 that says that jesus died for the "world" seem to say that He did die for all.

The Greek word "world" used in John 3:16 is not the word for planet earth. The word is "kosmos." The meaning of this word is ambiguous enough for there to be controversy (obviously). One accepted definition of this word is "world of believers." However you think believers become believers it's not biblically supported that God loves everyone who ever existed. I give you two very obvious examples:

Esau and Pharaoh.

He said He hated Esau (Mal 1:3; Rom 9:13) and He made His feelings very clear towards Pharaoh.

God bless.