Kylie's Evidence Challenge

Given good enough evidence, would you change your position regarding the existence of God?

  • I do NOT believe in God and I would never change my position, no matter what evidence.

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  • Total voters
    33

PsychoSarah

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I don't know if the Muslim religion teaches Hell or not.

Do you?
It absolutely does. Don't forget that Muslims read and preach both the Old and New Testament just like they read and preach the Quran. There's also plenty of verses about heaven and hell in the Quran.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, it's called Jahannam.
Well for the record, she finds your concept of annihilation far worse than the Bible's concept of Hell (assuming I read her post correctly).

Care to comment on that?
 
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AV1611VET

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Nonexistence is unlike either of those things,
Sarah, I'm not interested in two paragraphs of runaround.

Do you, or do you not, much prefer around-the-clock torture to solitary confinement?

YES or NO?
 
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AV1611VET

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It absolutely does. Don't forget that Muslims read and preach both the Old and New Testament just like they read and preach the Quran. There's also plenty of verses about heaven and hell in the Quran.
Well then I'll go out on a limb and say their concept of Hell is different than the Bible's.

Judging by what Colter said, they're the same (if I read his vague comment correctly).

You guys are experts at being vague when it comes to ridiculing the Bible.

Why is that?
 
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Colter

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Well for the record, she finds your concept of annihilation far worse than the Bible's concept of Hell (assuming I read her post correctly).

Care to comment on that?
Annihilation is cessation of existence. Your place is found no more if you are annihilated. She seemed to think its like being in a sensory deprivation chamber.
 
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AV1611VET

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Annihilation is cessation of existence. Your place is found no more if you are annihilated. She seemed to think its like being in a sensory deprivation chamber.
Whatever.

You two have a nice day.

I'm not going to try any further to figure this out.

In my opinion, neither one of you know what you're talking about.
 
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Colter

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Whatever.

You two have a nice day.

I'm not going to try any further to figure this out.

In my opinion, neither one of you know what you're talking about.
It's not rocket science, we either are dead, gone, don't exist, or we are resurrected.
 
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CrystalDragon

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I find it interesting that no atheists have said that they would never change their position even if evidence was presented—all the atheists who voted seem to say they'd be willing to believe with evidence, whereas about half the Christians who voted said they'd never change their minds no matter the evidence.

IMO, evidence and discovery leads to whatever the truth is. If something discourages/guilt-trips someone from questioning, all the more reason to be suspicious and think it might not be as true as it claims.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Well then I'll go out on a limb and say their concept of Hell is different than the Bible's.

Judging by what Colter said, they're the same (if I read his vague comment correctly).

You guys are experts at being vague when it comes to ridiculing the Bible.

Why is that?
What do you mean? I tend to use specific examples on the occasions in which I criticize the text directly. Aside from specific topics in which the bible itself tends to be vague, I generally don't see people unwilling to use direct quotes from the bible in their criticisms. Especially not when requested to do so.

As for how different the Muslim concept of hell is from the Christian one, I'd say that, aside from who ends up there, the Quran does go into a bit more detail as to the punishments, but otherwise is the same. The heaven described in the Quran is a bit different. My favorite religious text uncertain translation is actually pertaining to it. You know how Muslim martyrs are told that there will be virgins rewarded to them upon death? The alternative translation is grapes XD and thanks to how they are described, a distinction can't easily be made. That is, the description could apply to virgins or grapes XD.
 
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-57

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What Does the Bible Say About Heaven And Hell? a ton of bible verses about heaven and hell. After reading all of them, the most I can say about heaven is that it is considered a good place to be, you'll be hanging out with the god you worship and worship it eternally, and that most people don't end up there, in summary. Most of the verses that reference it are about how and how not to get into heaven, not what the place itself is like. Look through them yourself. Most of the common ideas about heaven aren't from the bible itself, but other literature and ideas written by believers over time. As for hell, well, lake of fire and sulfur made for the devil and his angels, eternal suffering... not particularly detailed either. Most ideas about hell are also from separate ideas and literature.


I take moral issue with the idea that a deity would demand faith for a good afterlife, and also deny people that faith. However, I take even more issue with the suggestion that I somehow lack the ability to understand your religion just because I don't share the faith. And I know you want to predictably bring up bible verses that claim that nonbelievers can't understand it, but if that were true, there would be no such thing as a Christian convert, because to convert requires that one understands the content BEFORE believing it.

Your post alone pretty much proved what i had to say about you. God hasn't granted you the ability to understand. For example, you don't do anything to get into heaven. There is just one place you "lack the ability to understand my religion"

So, you take moral issue....God demans faith for a good afterlife? You show your ignorance once again concerning christianity. God gives you faith. It's a gift.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Your post alone pretty much proved what i had to say about you. God hasn't granted you the ability to understand. For example, you don't do anything to get into heaven. There is just one place you "lack the ability to understand my religion"
-_- that contradicts your own religion; faith is obviously a requirement to get into heaven (with a small number of denominations deviating from that tenant). Furthermore, one must expose themselves to the basic concept of Christianity before they have any chance of believing it; believers don't just come about spontaneously without ever knowing about the religion first. That's why the bible encourages people to "spread the word", so to speak.

So, you take moral issue....God demans faith for a good afterlife?
Yes, because believing in something is not a fully conscious choice. If it were, I'd most certainly believe in an afterlife, and likely be a theist. But I can't just believe something to be true just because I want to believe it. This means that the deity as you describe rewards and punishes with little to no conscious input by the individual. I view that as morally questionable; for the sake of fairness, everyone should have a completely equal opportunity to have faith. Yet... what a surprise, most Christians were indoctrinated as children, with little to no say on what they want to believe or exposure to different ideas.

You show your ignorance once again concerning christianity. God gives you faith. It's a gift.
That makes it even worse. This means that the deity could entirely deny someone the opportunity for redemption and a good afterlife, withholding this "gift". Seeing as I have been a seeker since I was 13, I haven't rejected said gift, now have I? Furthermore, that is your personal interpretation of how faith works in Christianity, not a universally accepted or even entirely common perspective. Most people that I have come across view the good afterlife as the reward for keeping faith, not faith itself as the reward. Unless you consider the deity to give people everything always, which makes the distinction you made a bit redundant.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Annihilation is cessation of existence. Your place is found no more if you are annihilated. She seemed to think its like being in a sensory deprivation chamber.
No, because in annihilation, there would be no mind to be sensory deprived. It is much easier to have words express the end of existence than it is to actually visualize it, because you can't turn your mind off to experience such a thing.

However, my answer to AV's question about whether I would prefer physical torment or solitary confinement for eternity still stands. I will also openly say that I would much prefer to go to hell than cease to exist entirely. I simply don't believe there is a hell to go to.
 
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-57

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-_- that contradicts your own religion; faith is obviously a requirement to get into heaven (with a small number of denominations deviating from that tenant). Furthermore, one must expose themselves to the basic concept of Christianity before they have any chance of believing it; believers don't just come about spontaneously without ever knowing about the religion first. That's why the bible encourages people to "spread the word", so to speak.

It's obvious you don't really know what christianity actually says. Faith is a gift from God given to the "believer" after regeneration. Eph 2:8 tells us...8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
As you see the bible teaches faith is a gift from God...and not of ourselves. As far as being exposed to the "basic concept of Christianity"...that's one way God gives an individual faith.
Yes, because believing in something is not a fully conscious choice. If it were, I'd most certainly believe in an afterlife, and likely be a theist. But I can't just believe something to be true just because I want to believe it. This means that the deity as you describe rewards and punishes with little to no conscious input by the individual. I view that as morally questionable; for the sake of fairness, everyone should have a completely equal opportunity to have faith. Yet... what a surprise, most Christians were indoctrinated as children, with little to no say on what they want to believe or exposure to different ideas.

It seems as if Paul expected a response such as you just made when he answered your question with:
Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.

God carries out His mercy in many ways. It is true, in some instances God exposes christianity to children. There are many instances where God exposes christianity to adults. Not every person receives mercy. In fact no one deserves mercy but rather justice.
That makes it even worse. This means that the deity could entirely deny someone the opportunity for redemption and a good afterlife, withholding this "gift". Seeing as I have been a seeker since I was 13, I haven't rejected said gift, now have I? Furthermore, that is your personal interpretation of how faith works in Christianity, not a universally accepted or even entirely common perspective. Most people that I have come across view the good afterlife as the reward for keeping faith, not faith itself as the reward. Unless you consider the deity to give people everything always, which makes the distinction you made a bit redundant.

You posted "Most people that I have come across view the good afterlife as the reward for keeping faith"...in the sense you present it, that being salvation, the people who say that are not presenting to you correct biblical doctrine.
here's why, the bible speaks of two judgements. The White throne for those that have not received mercy, but rather justice...and the second judgement reserved for the believers who have received mercy. This judgement is called the Judgement seat of Christ or the Bema Seat judgement. The Bema seat judgement doesn't concern ones salvation as they are already saved but rather judges the believer on how they served the Lord.

I hope this post helps and straightens out some of your misreprentations of Christianity.
 
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HitchSlap

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It's obvious you don't really know what christianity actually says. Faith is a gift from God given to the "believer" after regeneration. Eph 2:8 tells us...8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
As you see the bible teaches faith is a gift from God...and not of ourselves. As far as being exposed to the "basic concept of Christianity"...that's one way God gives an individual faith.


It seems as if Paul expected a response such as you just made when he answered your question with:
Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.

God carries out His mercy in many ways. It is true, in some instances God exposes christianity to children. There are many instances where God exposes christianity to adults. Not every person receives mercy. In fact no one deserves mercy but rather justice.


You posted "Most people that I have come across view the good afterlife as the reward for keeping faith"...in the sense you present it, that being salvation, the people who say that are not presenting to you correct biblical doctrine.
here's why, the bible speaks of two judgements. The White throne for those that have not received mercy, but rather justice...and the second judgement reserved for the believers who have received mercy. This judgement is called the Judgement seat of Christ or the Bema Seat judgement. The Bema seat judgement doesn't concern ones salvation as they are already saved but rather judges the believer on how they served the Lord.

I hope this post helps and straightens out some of your misreprentations of Christianity.
Maybe you should let the Lutherans know.
 
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HitchSlap

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I would imagine they have read Eph 2:8 and already know.
And they would imagine you have read John 3:16. So what now?

To accuse someone of not understanding, or misrepresenting your faith, is a bit disingenuous when you know full well you guys have different interpretations, some big, some little, with over 30,000 different sects.
 
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PsychoSarah

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It's obvious you don't really know what christianity actually says. Faith is a gift from God given to the "believer" after regeneration. Eph 2:8 tells us...8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
As you see the bible teaches faith is a gift from God...and not of ourselves. As far as being exposed to the "basic concept of Christianity"...that's one way God gives an individual faith.
Name 1 person that is Christian without anyone telling them about Christianity or being exposed to it through literature or other media.


It seems as if Paul expected a response such as you just made when he answered your question with:
Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.
-_- that he says it's not an injustice because the deity won't budge on the process doesn't make it any less morally questionable. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” in no way explains away negative moral implications, it's just another way of saying that the deity picks who suffers and who doesn't. That the deity has the capacity for mercy doesn't make it moral for it to judge who gets eternal torment and who gets eternal bliss. In fact, the mere concept of an eternal punishment for anything we do in our finite lives is morally questionable, and nothing you have quoted or said makes that go away. Equally morally questionable is any eternal benefit gleaned from a finite existence. A being with a finite existence could never do anything that made them deserve either fate.

God carries out His mercy in many ways. It is true, in some instances God exposes christianity to children. There are many instances where God exposes christianity to adults. Not every person receives mercy. In fact no one deserves mercy but rather justice.

Mercy that is undeserved is inherently immoral. You are unintentionally saying that every act of mercy performed by the deity on humanity is immoral. Also, I and many others would never considered eternal hell fire to be a just punishment for any finite crime. Also, only in some instances to kids? Most religious people are indoctrinated into their religion as children. This is because children are more trusting and have lower critical thinking skills and independence than adults do. You see this with political views as well: it is easier to sway a child to your side than an adult, even if both were previously neutral on the matter. What's worse is that, with kids, they'll start believing before they even fully understand the concept, because they trust the adults around them, and what they are given tends to be watered down.

You posted "Most people that I have come across view the good afterlife as the reward for keeping faith"...in the sense you present it, that being salvation, the people who say that are not presenting to you correct biblical doctrine.
In your opinion. With no universal agreement, what makes your perspective on your own religion any better than that of an equally versed Christian that disagrees with you?

here's why, the bible speaks of two judgements. The White throne for those that have not received mercy, but rather justice...and the second judgement reserved for the believers who have received mercy. This judgement is called the Judgement seat of Christ or the Bema Seat judgement. The Bema seat judgement doesn't concern ones salvation as they are already saved but rather judges the believer on how they served the Lord.
Entirely irrelevant to me, as I am not a believer. To be fair, you are the only person I have interacted with that described this with such detail (which is sad). Most people that bring it up just say that those that serve their god more will get more in the afterlife than believers that did less in service to the god. However, this does seem a tad off topic.

I hope this post helps and straightens out some of your misreprentations of Christianity.
Were you trying to say misconception or misrepresentation? Misconception makes more sense in the sentence, but what you wrote looks more like misrepresentation. I understand how you view Christianity better, but since you can't speak for every Christian and I know there are people that disagree with you, that's only really helpful in discussions with you personally.
 
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-57

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Name 1 person that is Christian without anyone telling them about Christianity or being exposed to it through literature or other media.

That seems to be a strange question considering just above your response I said..." As far as being exposed to the "basic concept of Christianity"...that's one way God gives an individual faith."

-_- that he says it's not an injustice because the deity won't budge on the process doesn't make it any less morally questionable. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” in no way explains away negative moral implications, it's just another way of saying that the deity picks who suffers and who doesn't. That the deity has the capacity for mercy doesn't make it moral for it to judge who gets eternal torment and who gets eternal bliss. In fact, the mere concept of an eternal punishment for anything we do in our finite lives is morally questionable, and nothing you have quoted or said makes that go away. Equally morally questionable is any eternal benefit gleaned from a finite existence. A being with a finite existence could never do anything that made them deserve either fate.

When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?

Mercy that is undeserved is inherently immoral. You are unintentionally saying that every act of mercy performed by the deity on humanity is immoral. Also, I and many others would never considered eternal hell fire to be a just punishment for any finite crime. Also, only in some instances to kids? Most religious people are indoctrinated into their religion as children. This is because children are more trusting and have lower critical thinking skills and independence than adults do. You see this with political views as well: it is easier to sway a child to your side than an adult, even if both were previously neutral on the matter. What's worse is that, with kids, they'll start believing before they even fully understand the concept, because they trust the adults around them, and what they are given tends to be watered down.

You said..."Mercy that is undeserved is inherently immoral." Care to support that?

In your opinion. With no universal agreement, what makes your perspective on your own religion any better than that of an equally versed Christian that disagrees with you?

It's what the bible says. If you want to disagree...that's your right.

Entirely irrelevant to me, as I am not a believer. To be fair, you are the only person I have interacted with that described this with such detail (which is sad). Most people that bring it up just say that those that serve their god more will get more in the afterlife than believers that did less in service to the god. However, this does seem a tad off topic.

It shows your ignorance when it comes to you sashaying onto a thread presenting yourself as a christian slayer.

Were you trying to say misconception or misrepresentation? Misconception makes more sense in the sentence, but what you wrote looks more like misrepresentation. I understand how you view Christianity better, but since you can't speak for every Christian and I know there are people that disagree with you, that's only really helpful in discussions with you personally.

I was speaking of how you misrepresent christianity.
 
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PsychoSarah

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That seems to be a strange question considering just above your response I said..." As far as being exposed to the "basic concept of Christianity"...that's one way God gives an individual faith."
That implies that there is more than one way, so name the other ways.


When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
Jars aren't sentient, we are. Just because you believe the deity made our species doesn't make it moral to treat us however it wants, because we have feelings, hopes, aspirations, the capacity for pain, etc. Like how a building crew doesn't have the right to destroy a structure they built whenever they want on the grounds that they built it.


You said..."Mercy that is undeserved is inherently immoral." Care to support that?
It's a personal perspective that, if someone doesn't deserve something, then it is best that they not get it. Just simple logic, that. Therefore, to give it to them anyway is to forgo the best course of action in favor of a worse course of action. That's willfully making a bad decision knowing that it is a bad decision.


It's what the bible says. If you want to disagree...that's your right.
There's no consensus on much of what the bible says, so you have no grounds to even claim that what you think it says is entirely accurate. Maybe you are the one portraying the religious text inaccurately. Chances are, neither of us are entirely right. We can quote what the bible says all day long, but there won't be much consistency in interpretation across the board.


It shows your ignorance when it comes to you sashaying onto a thread presenting yourself as a christian slayer.
Hahaha, what? I am a seeker and I would much rather be a theist. I am no Christian slayer, nor have I ever worked towards such a thing. I don't even inherently disagree with your interpretation of scripture, or agree with it, it's just different from what I am used to hearing. Christian slayer, hahahahahahaha.



I was speaking of how you misrepresent christianity.
You, sir, are not the person that gets to decide how all of the many denominations of Christianity should interpret the bible. I listened to what you had to say, even though you are no more of an authority on the matter than anyone else on this site. My words didn't represent what Christianity was to you personally, no more, no less.
 
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