Kylie's Apple Challenge

Which is more reasonable, that the apple created ex nihilo or that it grow on a tree?

  • The apple was created ex nihilo

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The apple grew on a tree.

    Votes: 16 100.0%

  • Total voters
    16

AV1611VET

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"the thing". I can guarantee we see and experience the stuff around us differently.

The indigenous people see and experience things like trees, animals, mountains and everything around them as verbs. That's their reality. That's not true in western culture. Is their reality less true than yours?
Yes.
 
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Kylie

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"the thing". I can guarantee we see and experience the stuff around us differently.

The indigenous people see and experience things like trees, animals, mountains and everything around them as verbs. That's their reality. That's not true in western culture. Is their reality less true than yours?

If they see it differently, then it's subjective, just as your viewpoint is. Thus, you can't claim that your viewpoint is real just because you find it enriching.
 
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dlamberth

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If they see it differently, then it's subjective, just as your viewpoint is. Thus, you can't claim that your viewpoint is real just because you find it enriching.
Your pretty good at telling others what they can and can't do.

We are in total agreement about being subjective though. That's because the whole of the Human experience is subjective. Nothing new there.

I'm telling you, rather you believe it or not, the spiritual reality in which I live (which you have absolutely no clue of) has enriched my life.
 
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Kylie

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Your pretty good at telling others what they can and can't do.

We are in total agreement about being subjective though. That's because the whole of the Human experience is subjective. Nothing new there.

I'm telling you, rather you believe it or not, the spiritual reality in which I live (which you have absolutely no clue of) has enriched my life.

And have I ever said it hasn't enriched your life? Of course not. If you say it's enriched your life, then I believe you.

But I don't think you are paying attention to what I am actually saying.

The fact it has enriched your life doesn't make it true.

And yet, back in post 255 you suggested that if something had enriched your life, it was more likely to be true. I'm pointing out that the enrichment factor and the truth factor are two separate things, and you can't determine one from the other. There are lots of enriching things that are not true, and lots of true things that aren't enriching.
 
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AV1611VET

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Tell me how I can examine something and measure how true it is.
Sure:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.
 
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SelfSim

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"the thing". I can guarantee we see and experience the stuff around us differently.

The indigenous people see and experience things like trees, animals, mountains and everything around them as verbs. That's their reality. That's not true in western culture. Is their reality less true than yours?
No .. I never said such a thing. I said their meaning of reality is assigned by way of belief.
(And there is an abundance of beliefs amongst us).
 
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SelfSim

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4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.
.. (with your condition 4 there, being your response to your recognition of the Bible being 'myopic').
 
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AV1611VET

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.. (with your condition 4 there, being your response to your recognition of the Bible being 'myopic').
Sorry.

I can't make heads or tails of what you just said.
 
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durangodawood

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The question arises: how might the limits one might poses as a criterion, be objectively tested for (ie: as existing)? Ie: in order to establish the objective existence of those limits?
Anything scientific thinking finds objectively untestable is a belief .. and so we are justified in classifying those limit criteria as being just that, ie: 'beliefs'.
Your writing is a bit opaque to me. Might be my fault. But either way.... not sure I can actually respond.

I dont care whether limits of human perception can be established as objectively true. Every single person I know has experienced them. Ive never heard anyone deny them. Good enough for me.

As for me, there's this mountain bike ride I do now and again where I round a corner at speed and in front of me is a burnt tree trunk standing about 6 feet tall. Every time the first thing I see is a bear.
 
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sjastro

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Sure:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.
It amazes me how you fail to comprehend option (4) contradicts your "Prime Directive".

Here is another example involving ancient Egypt which I know is going to upset you as in that other post you went into full blown denial mode where the history of ancient Egypt backed by archaeology shows a global flood never occurred.

In this example the Bible says nothing about the economic and social state of ancient Egypt after 600,000 Israelite men plus women and children giving a total of around 2 million exited Egypt.
This is the case for "Bible says ø".

A substantial loss of the slave labour force representing a large percentage of Egypt's total population would have resulted in Egypt's economic and social collapse.
Science through archaeology indicates when Egypt went through economic and social collapse it occurred during periods of climate change where the annual Nile flood did not occur for years resulting in a serious decline in agriculture, foreign invasions such as the Hyksos, and civil war where the central authority of the pharaohs was lost to the increasing power of the nomarchs.
Economic and social collapse did not occur due to the mass exodus of slaves.
To make matters worse if the Biblical Exodus occurred the most common date given is during Egypt's early 19th dynasty when it was at its most powerful economically and militarily and had an empire which extended into the Middle East.

Since there was no economic and social collapse due to a mass exodus of slaves this is the case for "Science says x".
According to your heuristics you "go with x" but now you have contradicted your "Prime Directive" as the science implies the Exodus could never had occurred as described in the Bible.
 
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Estrid

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What I find it interesting is that for something that supposedly doesn't exist, the spiritual awareness of life has definitely enriched my life as I know it has for many others through the years. The question I have is how could that even be possible for something that does not exist? That's what I'm wondering.
Maybe spiritual awareness isn't what you think.

It's God atheists don't believe in, not various
states of mind.
 
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Frank Robert

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Beliefs are stored in our subconscious minds where for some they serve a positive purpose for others not so much. The purpose is real, the belief doesn't need to be true beyond the purpose it serves.
 
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