kneeling on Sundays

[MoNiCa4316]

Hello

There's a similar thread in OBOB but I was interested in getting the Orthodox perspective.

I saw these quotes about kneeling on Sundays:

We consider it forbidden to pray on bended knees on the Lord's Day. (Tertullian, 210)
There are many other observances in the Church which, though due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law, as, for instance, the practice of not praying on bended knees on Sunday. (St. Jerome, 330)

I was given an Orthodox article which said that the Orthodox don't kneel to pray on Sundays, but that doesn't mean there's never any worship where people touch the ground with their knees. I hope I understood that correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong ).

I was wondering if there is more information on this, and - whether kneeling during worship is acceptable on Sundays, to the Orthodox? am I understanding the article correctly, that there is a distinction between prayer and worship?

Also are there differences in how kneeling is seen in the East and the West? I know in the Mass, personally when I kneel it's not out of penance, it's just out of reverence to give honour to the Blessed Sacrament. We genuflect/kneel before the Blessed Sacrament (in worship), and stand for the other prayers and the Gospel, and sit for the other readings and the responsorial psalms.

What about in an Orthodox church? I'm trying to understand these canons better and what they're actually saying. If kneeling during prayer as a penance is what is forbidden, what about kneeling during worship, or without penance.

I'm interested in your responses thanks!

God bless

ps: here's the article: Should we kneel: a response

 

[ArmyMatt]

I dunno, we typically don't do it (at least from what I have seen) because Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, but I have seen priests do it when the Eucharist is consecrated, and on certain feast days when they fall on a Sunday.

dunno if this helps

 

[Nephi]

Generally from what I've heard we are not supposed to kneel in prayer/worship on Sundays at all. People nonetheless do it, but it generally isn't considered a big deal to any but the more legalistic folks.

Kneeling on other days of the week is fine and does happen. For example, during the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy the Gifts are already the Body and Blood, and so when the priest does the procession with the gifts, everyone kneels and bows their heads instead of standing.

And yes, as mentioned there are often exceptions because just a few weeks ago when we were venerating the cross there was kneeling/prostrating during the service.

 

[Ioannis]

If I remember correctly, it has to do with the more penitential nature of kneeling and that, on Sunday, we should be rejoicing and also why we don't kneel/prostrate from Pascha to Pentecost.

That being said, as with many things in Orthodoxy, your mileage may vary. The Greeks in America have a habit of kneeling. They do it in Korea also (we're under the EP), but I don't recall if they do it in Greece, though I can never remember doing it on Sunday on Athos.

 

[katherine2001]

And there is not supposed to be any kneeling between Pascha and Pentecost. In my parish, we don't have anyone kneeling during liturgy (the priests do full prostrations sometimes, but that is not kneeling). Also, during the pre-sanctifieds, we do full prostrations during the entrance with the gifts (kneeling and prostrating are different things). We will be kneeling today and on Pentecost as we are doing the kneeling prayers. Also, on the feast days for the cross, we are doing full prostrations as well (at least we do in the Slavic tradition).

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks for the replies! Is this custom (and the canon) there because kneeling is always seen as penance in the East?

 

[Dorothea]

There was just a thread on this. Bessie posted a good article on kneeling. Apparently there is something called standing on one's knees. Also, many of the CF's at the First EC's wanted kneeling done over 200 times out of over 300+ instances when one can do so in worship and prayer. If I find the link, I'll post it.

But overall, you do what your bishop says. Our bishop tells us to kneel during the consecration, and So we do. I'd feel it shows great reverence and respect to do so and also humbles us ( as the priest says in that article).

Ok, time to go back in the church for the next service - the Lamentations.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There was just a thread on this. Bessie posted a good article on kneeling. Apparently there is something called standing on one's knees. Also, many of the CF's at the First EC's wanted kneeling done over 200 times out of over 300+ instances when one can do so in worship and prayer. If I find the link, I'll post it.

Thanks for the reply, I'm interested in what you mean about the 300 times?

 

[Dorothea]

Thanks for the reply, I'm interested in what you mean about the 300 times?

It's an interesting article. Doesn't mean more kneeling is going to happen, but nevertheless, I liked the read.

Here's an excerpt from it:

Both pride and the devil's temptation have convinced us to stand upright in church. Sitting is acceptable, kneeling [bless and do not curse] well, that is old fashioned and we know better now. And yet the First Ecumenical Council wanted us to kneel in prayer for 271 out of 365 days of the year call it three fourths of the time and we, for the sake of the letter of the law, have given it up entirely.

At the same time, are we truly following even the letter of the law? The Fathers distinguished between prayer and worship. The communal act of the Church is worship. Prayer is an individual act, always.

Even in those circumstances that several individuals pray the same words simultaneously, the understanding has always been that each prayer must come from each individual's heart. In other words, what I feel as I pray has no bearing on what you feel as you pray. That is why the priest prays so regularly at every Sacrament, that the Grace of the Holy Spirit will come down regardless of the priest's sins or lack of faith.

Thus, when the Fathers speak of standing "in prayer" they do not mean standing "in worship" nor do they mean standing "in a service," nor do they mean that your knee must never touch the floor on a Sunday. And, when the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council refer to "those who kneel in prayer" and establish that "prayer (shall) be made to God standing," they are saying nothing about kneeling in worship or during a service.

To fall down before God, whether in a bow to the earth or by standing on one's knees or by bending of our knees is an act of worship of creature to Creator. We are not worthy, we are not capable, of being children of God without His intervention, His Mercy and His Grace.

Kneeling should never be a ritual, nor should prostrations be a mindless activity. They should be reflections of our love for God. Unlike the Roman Catholic West, most kneeling and prostrations in the Orthodox Church have very little to do with repentance. The prostrations of St. Ephraim's prayer, at the Alleluia at Matins, at the penitential troparia at Lenten Vespers or Compline, the holding of a bow to the earth during "Let my prayer arise," or "My soul, my soul, why are you sleeping?" and other similar instances are the only penitential times.

The standing on one's knees during the Eucharistic Canon, the bows of various depths when the Mysteries of the Eucharist are brought forth, the bow to the earth before receiving the Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ are all instances of awe or humility, not penitence.

Should we kneel: a response