Kneeling during the National Anthem

[Shiloh Raven]

He gets it. Standing for the flag/anthem has become a compulsory action dictated by mob mentality and it shouldn't be about that. Furthermore, people who have a reason to not want to should not do it. These people should not get dirty looks (and if that's all they/we get they/we are lucky - usually there are words and yelling and threatening behavior much more than just looks).

I have been given angry looks and I have been shouted at. Fortunately for me, I have a strong husband who quickly stood between me and the men who were yelling at me. I have been called foul names from what people call a female dog to other profane names I can't write on this site. I have been called a traitor and told to get the you know what out of this country. I experienced some of this in the presence of my own children and other children. I still think it's horrifying the kind of example that was set for these other children to see grown adults act like crazy maniacs because someone chose not to stand for the national anthem. I'm truly thankful that my own children know better.

As I was writing my above response, I was reminded of a news story from a couple of years ago about Native American children being harassed and having racial slurs yelled at them during a hockey game in South Dakota. I thought I would share these articles about it. For your information, the accusation against these children and the adults who were with them was that the children didn't stand for the national anthem. A group of men dumped beer on the heads of these children too. These men went to trial but they were acquitted and no charges were filed. I thought this story was worthy to share here.

No One Held Accountable For Native Kids Harassed At South Dakota Hockey Game

Native Children Racially Assaulted During Hockey Game. by Karin Eagle | Last Real Indians

Native American school children taunted with slurs, sprayed with beer at South Dakota hockey game

And that is why it has become idol worship in a religion that is forced upon everyone. It's wrong. Of all people, Christians should be the very first to recognize how wrong it is.

It does become idol worship when allegiance to the American flag is forced. But sadly, it has been conservative Christians who have led the charge to enforce such obedient compliance to standing for the national anthem. You can clearly see this to be true in some of the comments in this very thread and other threads similar to it. The common theme among these people is either respect the American flag and respect America or leave the country. We're expected to have unquestionable obedience in homage to that flag and this country and if we don't, then we quickly become targets of their wrath.

Thank you for sharing what you did, it's good to hear those things.

You're welcome.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

What does the anthem have to do with crooked police?

It is an attempt to communicate to others that America isn't being all of what America should be.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

instead of focusing on the few cases of police misconduct I think time would be better spent getting black kids to stop killing each other. Well over 300 just this year in Chicago alone. But lets focus on the five or ten police misconduct cases out of the millions of interactions police have every year.

Hear hear, and lets start by adequately funding their schools.

 

[Fireinfolding]

It is an attempt to communicate to others that America isn't being all of what America should be.

So whenever a footbal player has a beef with anything in America just take a knee and show their disrespect to the flag at the time of the anthem and justify it because of whatever part of America isnt perfect needs to be dealt with in that particular way?

Did you get a load of these dudes records I posted? Americans could use their same argument to protest the anthem on behalf of their own messed up doings.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

So whenever a footbal player has a beef with anything in America just take a knee and show their disrespect to the flag at the time of the anthem and justify it because of whatever part of America isnt perfect needs to be dealt with in that particular way?

Did you get a load of these dudes records I posted? Americans could use their same argument to protest the anthem on behalf of their own messed up doings.

They are not showing disrespect by taking a knee. They are showing they have a petition. Why do you disrespect them by claiming they are not showing respect?

 

[Anna Scott]

And don't forget this particular stanza in the Star Spangled Banner...

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

(emphasis mine)

I'm glad you posted this here. We were both engaged in discussion in another thread on the same topic. Post 62 gives some additional info on the history of the "The Star-Spangled Banner"After Trump Blasts N.F.L., Players Kneel and Lock Arms in Solidarity

The last stanza is very telling. The death of "hirelings and slaves" is celebrated and Francis Scott Key was a slave owner at the time he wrote this song. So the "freedom" celebrated in "The Star-Spangled Banner" was not intended for people of color.

What I will add to this is the fact that The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Socialist Baptist minister named Francis Bellamy. Bellamy wrote the pledge in 1892. "The Flag" was replaced with "the Flag of the United States of America" in 1923. "Under God," was added in 1954. Placing the right hand over the heart during the pledge came about after WWII, because the original salute was so similar to the Nazi "Heil Hitler." The 1890's was an ugly time in America's history, considering the political oppression of African Americans and racial violence against them (and other minorities and immigrants.) The "liberty and Justice for all" was not really for all, when this pledge was written.

 

[Fireinfolding]

They are not showing disrespect by taking a knee. They are showing they have a petition. Why do you disrespect them by claiming they are not showing respect?

Disrespectful is what the headlines are made of in respects to this very thing

Whatever you want to call it for sake of your strife, taking a knee at that time is being called disrespect. What I am saying is if what they are doing in this thing is directed towards the police as was stated then their own misbehaviors could also be approached in the same type manner (and during such a time).

They are showing they have a petition? Many dont even get what the heck they are even doing what they are doing, it makes no sense to even do it then, in showing their petition, where is this petition? Have they done anything besides falling on the grass to be made a spectacle of?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I'm editing this post because I was informed that the pictures were taken before the anthem.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Theres an agenda and these dudes dont stand for much anyway, so they are likely falling (on their knees) for whatver and for whichever one of their masters behind the scenes tells them to.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I'm glad you posted this here. We were both engaged in discussion in another thread on the same topic. Post 62 gives some additional info on the history of the "The Star-Spangled Banner"After Trump Blasts N.F.L., Players Kneel and Lock Arms in Solidarity

The last stanza is very telling. The death of "hirelings and slaves" is celebrated and Francis Scott Key was a slave owner at the time he wrote this song. So the "freedom" celebrated in "The Star-Spangled Banner" was not intended for people of color.

What I will add to this is the fact that The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Socialist Baptist minister named Francis Bellamy. Bellamy wrote the pledge in 1892. "The Flag" was replaced with "the Flag of the United States of America" in 1923. "Under God," was added in 1954. Placing the right hand over the heart during the pledge came about after WWII, because the original salute was so similar to the Nazi "Heil Hitler." The 1890's was an ugly time in America's history, considering the political oppression of African Americans and racial violence against them (and other minorities and immigrants.) The "liberty and Justice for all" was not really for all, when this pledge was written.

Thank you for sharing all this information, Anna. I appreciate it. And you're right because "liberty and justice for all" did not apply to minorities when the pledge was written or when this country was supposedly founded upon these ideals, including the ideal of freedom. African people and Indigenous people living in this country at that time certainly were not free, they did not have liberties or justice either. Native Americans were denied U.S. citizenship for 148 years until the Indian Citizenship Act in 1924. They were also denied religious freedom for 202 years until the American Indian Freedom of Religion Act in 1978. If you think about it, 202 years is a long time to be denied the right to practice your religion, especially when the First Amendment is suppose to guarantee that right.

These are only some of the reasons why I think it's disingenuous for someone to perpetuate the American Exceptionalism facade that the United States was originally founded upon the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice for all. I think that's almost as disingenuous as claiming America was founded upon Christian principles or that this country is a Christian nation today.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Even after it was written a quote from Henry Kissinger

“Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”

Just as these guys are being used by those in the backround pulling the strings

 

[Archivist]

Good point it's not from the revolutionary war, but...it's one of those instances where something has been effectively redefined in the popular mind. Now the anthem stands in American minds for all of the founding of our nation, not only a certain moment in 1814. Instead of a certain moment, the anthem is to most of us what the words themselves say to us, not the small detail, but the big theme, that we are "the land of the free". It's even a major act of identity. It's like "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal", and people hear this part, even if these are the only words they know at all from all the founding years.

A lot of people know just a few key things, like "land of the free", "freedom", "we hold these truths...", and these few bits are their entire "America" idea, and that's...well, a lot better than nothing, and helpful in some key ways.

You stated that "the national anthem stands in American minds for all of the founding of our nation." Just out of curiosity do you have evidence to support that? I'm curious because I have never heard that before.

Probably worth noting that the flag code, which these players are accused of breaking, didn't become law until 1942, so the US survived for 156 years without an official national anthem and 166 years without a flag code. Why is it such a big deal today?

 

[Halbhh]

You stated that "the national anthem stands in American minds for all of the founding of our nation." Just out of curiosity do you have evidence to support that? I'm curious because I have never heard that before.

Probably worth noting that the flag code, which these players are accused of breaking, didn't become law until 1942, so the US survived for 156 years without an official national anthem and 166 years without a flag code. Why is it such a big deal today?

Heh, at first I couldn't get what you were asking in that first question there. I think you mean something like a statistical polling? heh heh, no. Just my sense of people, nothing more. Does the anthem mean unique things to many people? Certainly! All sorts of things, and I would think if you asked 100 people you could even get like 90 to 100 distinct answers that were not quite the same as each other. But....considering that, still, I think a lot of similarities additionally. Overlaps. My way of saying it is that I think most people think of the anthem (in part) as being about America, and/or about freedom, and/or about the founding of our nation (even despite that it was about a battle in 1814, etc., etc., no matter). That these are common elements many would have. Of course, this sense I'd be happy to have modified with more information from scientific polling, if such is around, hah hah.

 

[Archivist]

Heh, at first I couldn't get what you were asking in that first question there. I think you mean something like a statistical polling? heh heh, no. Just my sense of people, nothing more. Does the anthem mean unique things to many people? Certainly! All sorts of things, and I would think if you asked 100 people you could even get like 90 to 100 distinct answers that were not quite the same as each other. But....considering that, still, I think a lot of similarities additionally. Overlaps. My way of saying it is that I think most people think of the anthem (in part) as being about America, and/or about freedom, and/or about the founding of our nation (even despite that it was about a battle in 1814, etc., etc., no matter). That these are common elements many would have. Of course, this sense I'd be happy to have modified with more information from scientific polling, if such is around, hah hah.

I asked because you had stated it as if it were fact. Of course you are entitled to your opinion...

 

[Halbhh]

I asked because you had stated it as if it were fact. Of course you are entitled to your opinion...

Hey, why not go and ask some people, over the next week or two:

"What does the Star Spangled Banner mean to you?"

And listen, and hear what they say.

It's a great idea. I think I'll do that myself. Maybe, I'll ask 5, but maybe it I can, I'll ask more, over a month or 2, like a dozen or more. (of course this isn't polling, but is a really interesting thing by itself though, and a great way to get a conversation going, which might limit how many people I can ask in a day, because of all the talking)

If you do so, and reply to me about it, I'll be delighted to hear from you.

 

[RDKirk]

What is their end game though? At what point will they stop kneeling?
There is no clear demand or goal, just a rough 'protest' of generally how things are going, so I can think of no way for this to end. People will just get used to it, and a sense of normality will descend.

This is a point--not a point that their kneeling is wrong--but a point that it's of limited effect.

And I've noted that in general with the modern concept of "protest." These days it appears to be nothing more than "displaying our feelings."

"Back in the day" our protests were usually directed at specific goals: The repeal of a specific law, the acknowledgement of a specific right in specific situations, the passage of a specific law.

That is, someone had been able to determine, "We want this specific change made" and the protest was to raise public awareness, change public opinion, and create public pressure to effect that specific change.

 

[Anna Scott]

Thank you for sharing all this information, Anna. I appreciate it. And you're right because "liberty and justice for all" did not apply to minorities when the pledge was written or when this country was supposedly founded upon these ideals, including the ideal of freedom. African people and Indigenous people living in this country at that time certainly were not free, they did not have liberties or justice either. Native Americans were denied U.S. citizenship for 148 years until the Indian Citizenship Act in 1924. They were also denied religious freedom for 202 years until the American Indian Freedom of Religion Act in 1978. If you think about it, 202 years is a long time to be denied the right to practice your religion, especially when the First Amendment is suppose to guarantee that right.

These are only some of the reasons why I think it's disingenuous for someone to perpetuate the American Exceptionalism facade that the United States was originally founded upon the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice for all. I think that's almost as disingenuous as claiming America was founded upon Christian principles or that this country is a Christian nation today.

Interesting facts about Native American rights, or the lack of rights for so long. What our Country did to Native Americans and others is impossible to justify.

You are right about the "facade that the United States was originally founded upon the ideals of freedom, liberty and justice for all." "All" didn't include oppressed groups, who were deemed inferior. Francis Bellamy, who wrote the "Pledge of Allegiance," made some extremely disturbing statements about immigrants and people of color. I didn't quote them, but you can search them online.

Basically, we have a National Anthem and a Pledge of Allegiance written by people who did not believe in freedom and justice for all. Yet, all Americans are expected to honor these things.

And as we have both pointed out, we have made idols of them. I love my country, but its history is far from perfect. I hope we can make it better, instead of taking steps backward.

I still haven't gotten an answer from poster pat34lee to these two questions on the other thread: After Trump Blasts N.F.L., Players Kneel and Lock Arms in Solidarity.

I'll ask them here to see if anyone will take the time to think about what it means to dictate/demand a specific response to a song or an object, such as the flag.

1. Do you believe the President or an employer should dictate what we are to think or believe about an object (such as the flag) or a song (such as the National Anthem)?

2. Do you believe the president or an employer should dictate how one should physically respond to an object (stand, sit, kneel, bow, whatever)?

 

[gym_class_hero]

The players are employees of the owners of the NFL teams. My employer doesn't allow me to Stage protests while I'm on work time and most employers don't allow that. That's really the bottom line here what your employer will allow you to do while you're getting paid. I agree that they have the right to do whatever they want during the national anthem and I have the right to criticize them or not watch or attend NFL games. Once it affects the bottom line of a business owner, they get to make the call. That's how democracy and capitalism work

 

[Yekcidmij]

They're against police brutality. That's it.

Maybe...I mean, that's what you say and how you interpret all of this, but as far as observing the people actually carrying out this activity, I can't tell what they're saying. Most of them weren't doing anything until Trump started talking about them, then they started calling for "unity" or something. So I can't tell if they're just acting out of dislike of Trump, police brutality, "unity", or who-knows-what. You can say what you think it is, but I'm not sure you're speaking on their behalf.

 

[Yekcidmij]

It does become idol worship when allegiance to the American flag is forced. But sadly, it has been conservative Christians who have led the charge to enforce such obedient.

Is it really "forced?" Nobody is going to prison, being fined, or having legal actions taken and ruled against them.

These NFL players are entertainers for a living, and their customers are the fans. The customers aren't required to consent to player behavior, and the customer can require their service provider to stand for the national anthem or else lose the customer's business. This isn't being forced - this is voluntary exchange. The NFL/team employees don't have to stand and the customers don't have to pay to watch if they don't like the behavior of the employees.

I don't really care - if I want to watch football I tune in for the game. I could care less what they do when the game clock isn't ticking.