Kissing Marriage Goodbye

[charsan]

courting works just not when most of the culture works against it (and that's currently how it is). when you are doing the thing no one else is doing and everyone is asking why then it's not going to work because no one is helping you and you're on your own.

Courting works in systems when you marry you live with your parents and the mother teaches the girl how to be a wife and the father teaches the boy... etc. It depends on this sort of passing the torch, apprenticeship teaching model but if you marry someone you don't know then get thrown into real life that you also don't know there's going to be a lot of stressors which cause's withdrawal from whatever has changed (ie. new spouse)

Young adults are also not as prepared for life as they used to be, this is the result of our over-emphasis of education and career and changing dynamics of culture of what constitutes of functioning and independent. The result is this peter-pan syndrome where kids never grow up (or at least take a long time to). There are many cases of only partially independent late 20 yr olds because they are still in school and are not ready yet to start a career. And our culture doesn't release kids into marriage until their school is done and even until they have started a career which can easily put them in their late 20's and even early 30's. This is why people are living together before marriage, sex and playing marriage because of our high demands on being independent is simply too long and unrealistic to wait.

This is also not a healthy system for young marriage when you are 18, 19, 20 etc... because you're still a kid and probably don't even know how to pay for a water bill or do groceries, the result is 2 kids getting married on ideals but no experience or training of life (courting kind of depends on 2 people that are already trained for life). Christian parents need to be very intentional to prepare their kids for the complexities of living in our culture so they can cope with an earlier marriage, even financial support or living with their parents. Our culture has shifted away so much from Christian values of marriage that it has actually created systems to counter them.

either we promote sex before marriage because it's the only way it works if we follow the demands of our culture (or we ban it and it happens aways) or we promote early marriage and prepare our kids for marriage early on but also be available to help them to slowly prepare them.

Spot on, both posts. Kids are not taught life

 

[charsan]

I read the article and harris seems to be separated after 19 years of marriage noting that in 2015 he stepped down from his pastoral position and relocated his family to go into seminary which would bring a mass amount of added stress to a family. they seem have gone through a type of identity change and person reevaluating which leads to stress... and more stress.

I'm not a fan of the book (I read it 15 years ago while dating my now wife) but I think it's worth saying that 19 years of marriage can no longer be pointed back to a flawed courtship system. They should have worked out their "getting to know each other" part by now and what they are going through now probably is related to irresponsible ways they've handle stress or change unrelated to the ideals of a book written by Harris 22 years ago.

His fame early on and put in leadership and the fishbowl spotlight that is a product of being a famous pastor are things that are probably closely related. He stepped down from all this, moved to Canada to go into seminary 2015 and a massive redefining of his perspective of life. I would say this event pre-2015 that triggered all these changes contributed to the separation and the couples inability to seek help and resolve things on their own rather than say his flawed courtship design is what caused the breakup.

Sum it up, I think the statute of limitations on the book has been expired for quite some time and it's time to blame their issues on probably the poor way they handled them and not the flawed courtship design.

Great post! We are quick to judge and me thinks the OP judged to swiftly

 

[charsan]

Modern marriage seems to end in life-wrecking conflict more often than not. I honestly don't understand why anyone even tries anymore.

Not all. Me and my beautiful wife have been married for 22 years, being married is not easy in modern times at all things take work

 

[Sir Robbins]

courting works just not when most of the culture works against it (and that's currently how it is). when you are doing the thing no one else is doing and everyone is asking why then it's not going to work because no one is helping you and you're on your own.

Courting works in systems when you marry you live with your parents and the mother teaches the girl how to be a wife and the father teaches the boy... etc. It depends on this sort of passing the torch, apprenticeship teaching model but if you marry someone you don't know then get thrown into real life that you also don't know there's going to be a lot of stressors which cause's withdrawal from whatever has changed (ie. new spouse)

Young adults are also not as prepared for life as they used to be, this is the result of our over-emphasis of education and career and changing dynamics of culture of what constitutes of functioning and independent. The result is this peter-pan syndrome where kids never grow up (or at least take a long time to). There are many cases of only partially independent late 20 yr olds because they are still in school and are not ready yet to start a career. And our culture doesn't release kids into marriage until their school is done and even until they have started a career which can easily put them in their late 20's and even early 30's. This is why people are living together before marriage, sex and playing marriage because of our high demands on being independent is simply too long and unrealistic to wait.

This is also not a healthy system for young marriage when you are 18, 19, 20 etc... because you're still a kid and probably don't even know how to pay for a water bill or do groceries, the result is 2 kids getting married on ideals but no experience or training of life (courting kind of depends on 2 people that are already trained for life). Christian parents need to be very intentional to prepare their kids for the complexities of living in our culture so they can cope with an earlier marriage, even financial support or living with their parents. Our culture has shifted away so much from Christian values of marriage that it has actually created systems to counter them.

either we promote sex before marriage because it's the only way it works if we follow the demands of our culture (or we ban it and it happens aways) or we promote early marriage and prepare our kids for marriage early on but also be available to help them to slowly prepeare them.

I kind of fall into the "alternative" here. I've been single my whole nearly 30 years on earth and I've gotten so comfortable being alone that the thought of dealing with another person is a HUGE turnoff. I dedicate so much time to my career and when I am home, I'm burned out and don't want to deal with people. I never read his first book but my book would be titled, "never bothered to try" instead of "I kissed dating goodbye". If I were to date or so on, I'd expect a future partner to share the same values I do which is nearly non-existent at my age. I'm almost a joke to my generation at this point. I d know from blogs that Josh did help a lot of people with that book but in today's world, it would not be well received.

 

[Epthediah]

Not all. Me and my beautiful wife have been married for 22 years, being married is not easy in modern times at all things take work

That's wonderful, congratulations!

 

[bèlla]

Courting works in systems when you marry you live with your parents and the mother teaches the girl how to be a wife and the father teaches the boy... etc. It depends on this sort of passing the torch, apprenticeship teaching model

Exactly. My daughter lives at home and she’s being groomed as you stated. We’ve addressed this topic thoroughly and devised a system for outings, familial meetings, and courtship. She won’t go forward if we’re not on board.

 

[DamianWarS]

I kind of fall into the "alternative" here. I've been single my whole nearly 30 years on earth and I've gotten so comfortable being alone that the thought of dealing with another person is a HUGE turnoff. I dedicate so much time to my career and when I am home, I'm burned out and don't want to deal with people. I never read his first book but my book would be titled, "never bothered to try" instead of "I kissed dating goodbye". If I were to date or so on, I'd expect a future partner to share the same values I do which is nearly non-existent at my age. I'm almost a joke to my generation at this point. I d know from blogs that Josh did help a lot of people with that book but in today's world, it would not be well received.

that's a part of marriage, the similarities but also the differences. you can never marry a mirror and they are always different than you are. When you're 20 something you're just too blinded to see that your partner is different than you and has different expectations and all you see is how perfect they are. At some point, there is a collision of these differences (in every marriage) and a realization the other is not perfect, how the 2 of you deal with it is what determines your success.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Sorry to hear that, but I'm not surprised. The emphasis on "purity" rather than pragmatic reasons for self-control sets young people up for unrealistic expectations and failure.

Or it gives them a spiritual insight that grounded, pragmatic advice doesn't.

It also stigmatizes those who can't or don't wait until marriage.

Good. If the last few years have taught me nothing else, it's that some things ought to be stigmatized.

 

[Miles]

Or it gives them a spiritual insight that grounded, pragmatic advice doesn't.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. It's just that I've seen more people fail to wait when purity is emphasized over the practical reasons. Without a leg to stand on, they get knocked down (or knocked up) when their values are put to the test.

Jesus died for our sins. Each of us can be pure whether we wait or not. Purity alone isn't even an argument. It's a state of being. One that's available to anyone who confesses their sins and asks God for forgiveness.

Sure, it's possible to ask "why?" when presented with the idea of purity, and extrapolate the reasons why God would even care about our sex lives, but not everyone asks that question. And among those who do, not everyone finds solid arguments. Spiritual insight is valuable, but left to their own devices I wouldn't count on all (or even most) young people finding it on their own.

Good. If the last few years have taught me nothing else, it's that some things ought to be stigmatized.

While I agree that some things should be stigmatized, such as criminal behavior, I wouldn't lump someone's sexual past into that category. Especially not when they've repented.

It's possible to disapprove of an action without stigmatizing the individual.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I read all the comments, including reading the article “Kissing Marriage Goodbye…” and all the interesting comments under that article, including one comment by Alex mentioning hypergamy.


My wild guess is that Josh Harris’ wife did not like being uprooted from a very stable family life with her husband’s steady work as a minister – for him to go to Canada to study in a seminary.


Having dedicated my life to Christ at 19 and the Lord has led me away from marriage, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be married in this modern age, and stay married for 20 years. I agree that being led by the Holy Spirit in Jesus name is very important.

My best guess is that Josh is just backsliding. Involved in some sin that is bringing him into the dark. That is also the assumption of the article I linked. It does not even have to be some big ugly sin alike adultery either to get a person to backslide. It can just be simple unbelief due to seeing the politics and sin in a big church and not knowing how to deal with down on the inside.

I can tell you one thing though. Once he divorces his wife. Unless this is just totally her fault which is highly doubtful. Woman may be the ones who primarilyy divorce but it is usefully us stupid men's fault. He will not emerge the other side with the same relationship he has with the Lord previously. If he even has one right now as it stands anyway. People may think it is ok to continue on in the ministry after divorce but God does not see it that way. They may continue on but it will will not be with God's empowerment. It will be just them. That is what I have seen anyway.
I have also seen those who go through a horridly hard near divorce with adultery and all kinds of hard core stuff but get right with God and their spouse, forgive and get themselves a bunch of light from heaven to now do better. They come out on the other side with more empowerment from God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

I never said they were. My point was that pragmatic explanations for sexual purity aren't be effective for very long.

It's just that I've seen more people fail to wait when purity is emphasized over the practical reasons.

I agree, people should be given both, you're right. And I would add that they should be given a heaping helping of public shame when they cross the line.

While I agree that some things should be stigmatized, such as criminal behavior, I wouldn't lump someone's sexual past into that category. Especially not when they've repented.

Repentance is fine but that's between them and God. For everybody else, they should be considered a cautionary tale. "The shunning and shame that person is being subjected to could be you if you don't wait for marriage."

It's possible to disapprove of an action without stigmatizing the individual.

I'm sure that was a lovely sentiment back in the 1970's but we live today in an age where a refusal to stigmatize has resulted in a fair number of Americans believing that men can have sex with each other and call that "marriage". After four decades, we see now what tolerance is worth.

Would stigma and social shame change the paradigm? At this point, I don't see how they will make matters any worse.

All I'm saying is give scarlet letters a chance.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Harris reversed his stance on the book’s message.

Harris has released a statement apologizing for I Kissed Dating Goodbye and announcing that he will be discontinuing its publication, stating “I no longer agree with its central idea that dating should be avoided. I now think dating can be a healthy part of a person developing relationally and learning the qualities that matter most in a partner.”

what a jackass, he caused a lot of trouble to a lot of people for NO reason. this is the problem with evangelicals promoting a 20's something view on things. he developed way too much of a sense of himself.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Harris reversed his stance on the book’s message.

Harris has released a statement apologizing for I Kissed Dating Goodbye and announcing that he will be discontinuing its publication, stating “I no longer agree with its central idea that dating should be avoided. I now think dating can be a healthy part of a person developing relationally and learning the qualities that matter most in a partner.”

That "courtship" stuff is a joke anyway. What, are we bringing dowries back? No? Then let's skip this "courting" thing.

Anyway, so it's good to see that something positive has come out of this. Sad that it's taken this kind of loss for him to wake up to reality. But better late than never, I guess.

 

[bèlla]

what a jackass, he caused a lot of trouble to a lot of people for NO reason. this is the problem with evangelicals promoting a 20's something view on things. he developed way too much of a sense of himself.

Writing a book is one thing. Choosing to treat like the gospel is another matter. I read the book but I didn’t feel his approach was ideal for most.

Many people agreeing with his stance were in tight knit Christian communities or attended Christian colleges. They had ample access to suitable prospects.

I live down the street from a well-known Christian school. Most are partnered by senior year. They don’t undergo the same dating challenges many experience in different settings.

 

[johnlxyz]

Whenever you see hypergamy mentioned there’s usually a bad experience and unresolved anger towards the ex levied against women. I avoid them. ;-)

I still takes two people yielded to God willing to love, forgive, and bear one another’s burdens and flaws.

The only thing that changed is many are less yielded and willing to suffer and bear discomfort for the sake of the union. If I’m unwilling to make sacrifices on his behalf. I have no business marrying him. I’m relying on the Lord to order my steps toward him.

The only thing that changed is many are less yielded and willing to suffer and bear discomfort for the sake of the union.

I’ve thought for many years that it’s the christian church that has been the main influence for good, strong family ties. Very important has been christians avoiding the secretive occult sex that’s pervaded relationships. Recently a Mexican pentecostal leader of millions in Mexico and Texas has been arrested because of abusing young women, children and trafficking.

Mexican megachurch leader returns to court in sex abuse case

In a way I was fortunate to stay away from churches, including the pentecostal church background I started my christian faith with (Pentecostal Evangel, Bakersfield and Oakland A of G, Faith Center). However, some of the most devout christians might have been women and a few men (such as Pastor McLaughlin) at the Wednesday prayer meetings of the Bakersfield A of G church.

So there can be crucial extenuating circumstances that are very hard to deal with once a couple is locked in marriage. In Josh Harris’ case, they might have tried harder than they did to make the marriage work. With my sleep deprivation problems, it would be difficult to even start a marriage, let alone keep it going for 20 years.

 

[bèlla]

I’ve thought for many years that it’s the christian church that has been the main influence for good, strong family ties. Very important has been christians avoiding the secretive occult sex that’s pervaded relationships. Recently a Mexican pentecostal leader of millions in Mexico and Texas has been arrested because of abusing young women, children and trafficking.

That is an unfortunate situation. We must seek the Lord first in ALL things. When we place our faith in men and move them ahead of God for our daily bread; problems will ensue. Many are too trusting of the shepherd and not the Good Shepherd.

So there can be crucial extenuating circumstances that are very hard to deal with once a couple is locked in marriage. In Josh Harris’ case, they might have tried harder than they did to make the marriage work. With my sleep deprivation problems, it would be difficult to even start a marriage, let alone keep it going for 20 years.

Marriage is a sanctifying entity for those called to its path. That’s the Refiner’s Fire. There will be challenges. But it’s also an opportunity to demonstrate the Lord’s love and sacrifice through our union.

Twenty years of commitment is easier to broach when you’re viewing it as a holy work as opposed to a vehicle for happiness and nothing else. You must honor the divinity within the other person before you can love the man.

I’m sorry to hear of your sleep deprivation. He has promised to keep us in perfect peace if our minds are stayed on Him.

Flood your atmosphere with the Word. Leave the radio on a Christian station while you’re gone. Purchase or find (free online) an audio bible and play it in the background when you arrive home. Leave it on while you sleep. Your spirit will connect with it.

Ask the Lord to heal your sleep deprivation and let you rest in His perfect peace. Do this each night before retiring. See how you feel in two weeks.

 

[johnlxyz]

That is an unfortunate situation. We must seek the Lord first in ALL things. When we place our faith in men and move them ahead of God for our daily bread; problems will ensue. Many are too trusting of the shepherd and not the Good Shepherd.

Marriage is a sanctifying entity for those called to its path. That’s the Refiner’s Fire. There will be challenges. But it’s also an opportunity to demonstrate the Lord’s love and sacrifice through our union.

Twenty years of commitment is easier to broach when you’re viewing it as a holy work as opposed to a vehicle for happiness and nothing else. You must honor the divinity within the other person before you can love the man.

I’m sorry to hear of your sleep deprivation. He has promised to keep us in perfect peace if our minds are stayed on Him.

Flood your atmosphere with the Word. Leave the radio on a Christian station while you’re gone. Purchase or find (free online) an audio bible and play it in the background when you arrive home. Leave it on while you sleep. Your spirit will connect with it.

Ask the Lord to heal your sleep deprivation and let you rest in His perfect peace. Do this each night before retiring. See how you feel in two weeks.

You must honor the divinity within the other person before you can love the man.

That idea is why I think that the christian church is the only good reason for marriage. What good is having everything in a marriage except for having God preeminent in the relationship?

Purchase or find … an audio bible and play it in the background…

I just recently bought a Wonder audio bible. By typing in a 6 number code, it takes me to a specific chapter of a book in the bible. It had a USB charger. However, I haven’t used it because it has a drab elder male voice. There’s been so much occult male sex vibes in the West Coast cities I’ve lived in, that I almost cringe at male audio voices.

Quite awhile back, I was listening on low volume to Family Radio in Oakland, CA to try to take a nap. A girl in Oakland seemed to have an intense spell on me for several months, But while sleeping, the Lord seemed to break the spell, -- as a dream or vision seemed to show her face in a mirror and the mirror fragmented into many pieces. The song on Family Radio was the end of an opera (Elijah and Jezebel?) I no longer seemed to be bound by the intense spell after that.

(Elijah by Felix Mendelssohn, conducted by Ann Howard Jones with musicians from the Boston University of Fine Arts – 2hr 15min part 2 begins 1:10) This oratorio seems to be much more conducive to sleeping than listening to a drab old man’s voice reading scripture.

The Lord might have allowed the sleep deprivation as a “thorn in the flesh” that all glory is to Him.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Yep, just plain old backslidden. No doubt due to some sin not revealed yet. Has nothing to do with what he wrote in his books. That were not so great. He has renounced the faith publicly. Says he is no longer a Christian. At least, as one person pointed out. He has the courage to say he is no longer a Christian rather than calling himself a “progressive” Christian. Which is a cowardly oxymoron.

Sad. Sin is a tuff thing. It will devour you. Maybe he has given up on God. Does not mean God is given up on him and will not try to win him back.
Josh Harris falling away from faith: 'I am not a Christian'

 

[Messerve]

Yep, just plain old backslidden. No doubt due to some sin not revealed yet. Has nothing to do with what he wrote in his books. That were not so great. He has renounced the faith publicly. Says he is no longer a Christian. At least, as one person pointed out. He has the courage to say he is no longer a Christian rather than calling himself a “progressive” Christian. Which is a cowardly oxymoron.

Sad. Sin is a tuff thing. It will devour you. Maybe he has given up on God. Does not mean God is given up on him and will not try to win him back.
Josh Harris falling away from faith: 'I am not a Christian'

Yeah, makes me sick to think of how many people (in my generation) he may have disillusioned because he simply had to make his own doubts public news. It's fine to doubt. It's not fine to drag others down with you because of your personal doubts.

I'm just waiting for him to announce he's in a same-sex relationship. Everything is pointing to it...

 

[charsan]

Well-known Christian author, purity advocate, renounces his faith: ‘I hope you can forgive me’