Kink in christian marriage

[Shard]

God designed the bodies of men and women with sex as one of the natural functions of marriage. Like anything, sex can be misused. If self-gratification is the ONLY motivation of a particular act, there has to be some caution as to whether God would approve. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we need to ask whether a particular sexual act falls within the natural use of the body of a man/woman. God designed man/woman to fit together perfectly well and I can't see how the use of "toys" etc need to be added to the creation of sex by God.

I am NOT saying it is definitely wrong as the Bible is silent on this type of thing. I would just caution against saying that anything goes - this is a judgment call for each Christian couple. I also think a good test for any type of Christian behaviour is to ask ourselves if we would be comfortable doing any given act in the presence of God and this is certainly a good test in area of sexual activity...

I'm not sure I'd want to have regular sex in the prescence of God...people watching in general freaks me out.

 

[Cearbhall]

I'm not sure I'd want to have regular sex in the prescence of God...people watching in general freaks me out.

Not to mention all the people you knew who have passed away.

 

[Paradoxum]

AMEN GIRL!! You said it exactly how I feel better than I could. This is so spot on. I like lingerie, bikinis, dancing, and preforming and it is all completely natural, I LOVE THIS!!!

Ha, well I'm glad you agree.

 

[Armoured]

God designed man/woman to fit together perfectly well and I can't see how the use of "toys" etc need to be added to the creation of sex by God.

With the greatest respect, if this is the case, I suspect you may be a little sheltered.

 

[Cearbhall]

God designed the bodies of men and women with sex as one of the natural functions of marriage. Like anything, sex can be misused. If self-gratification is the ONLY motivation of a particular act, there has to be some caution as to whether God would approve. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we need to ask whether a particular sexual act falls within the natural use of the body of a man/woman. God designed man/woman to fit together perfectly well and I can't see how the use of "toys" etc need to be added to the creation of sex by God.

So why are kissing and fondling ok if not anal? Mouths and hands weren't made for that purpose, and two men or two women can do those things just as easily as a man and a woman.

 

[Danny777]

With the greatest respect, if this is the case, I suspect you may be a little sheltered.

Quite the opposite actually - before I became a Christian (7 years ago) I thought of this exactly the same way as everyone of this thread. I am NOT saying I am right about this...I've just had a change of thinking - I'm NOT saying that anyone who thinks differently is wrong. Like I said, it's a judgment call for each Christian couple...

 

[Danny777]

So why are kissing and fondling ok if not anal? Mouths and hands weren't made for that purpose, and two men or two women can do those things just as easily as a man and a woman.

True, as I said it's a judgment call for each Christian couple. Mouths can be used for lots things, some good things, some bad. We can say nice things with our mouths and we can say hateful things with our mouths. The same with our hands - our hands can be used to give someone affection or they can be used to pull the trigger of a gun to kill someone. Our mouths and hands have been created with the possibility of both good and bad - it is OUR choice what we do with them!

I believe sex in our culture is becoming more "animalistic" and a means of "self gratification". I personally do not believe humans are just animals and I instead believe we are made in the image of God and with that goes some privileges and responsibilities. If you believe anal sex is a practice that God had in mind when he created human sexuality, then go ahead...I'm not convinced. I am NOT saying I am right and you are wrong. I am not a prude and my views on this have dramatically changed over the years (since I became a Christian) and have now reached the conclusion that the area of human sexuality can be misused just as much as any other area of human life.

This is not a black and white issue and the Bible is fairly silent on sexual conduct within marriage except that I would say it is obvious that the "sex lives" of a Christian couple should reflect our desire to serve and bring honour to God our Creator. If a Christian couple feel that anal sex, BDSM, toys etc display that attitude, that is a judgment call for them - I just have second thoughts...that's all!

 

[Paradoxum]

True, as I said it's a judgment call for each Christian couple. Mouths can be used for lots things, some good things, some bad. We can say nice things with our mouths and we can say hateful things with our mouths. The same with our hands - our hands can be used to give someone affection or they can be used to pull the trigger of a gun to kill someone. Our mouths and hands have been created with the possibility of both good and bad - it is OUR choice what we do with them!

I agree, but in these cases we can see how saying hateful things, or killing someone, is harmful.

I believe sex in our culture is becoming more "animalistic" and a means of "self gratification".

'Animalistic'? What does that mean, and why is that a bad thing? If a human desires to do something 'animalistic', then clearly the desire is also 'humanistic' because it exists in humans.

Also, why would self-gratification be wrong? I don't hear Christians complain about the millions of other things humans (likely including themselves) do for self-gratification. It's always sex.

I personally do not believe humans are just animals and I instead believe we are made in the image of God and with that goes some privileges and responsibilities. If you believe anal sex is a practice that God had in mind when he created human sexuality, then go ahead...I'm not convinced. I am NOT saying I am right and you are wrong. I am not a prude and my views on this have dramatically changed over the years (since I became a Christian) and have now reached the conclusion that the area of human sexuality can be misused just as much as any other area of human life.

But there are likely emotional reasons that you think God wouldn't have intended anal. You think of God as pure and sexless, whereas anal is kinda dirty. The dirtiness clashes with the purity. This isn't a moral argument though, it's merely our vague unsupported feelings. eg: If we think food X is disgusting, that doesn't mean the food is immoral.

It looks like God didn't intend humans to fly, but that doesn't mean aeroplanes are immoral. Just because God didn't build a natural function in to do Y, doesn't mean Y is wrong.

There aren't any moral arguments for why anal is wrong. It's all based on vague feelings that God wouldn't have approved. It's just the Christian (though not all Christians) obsession over what people do with their sexual desire.

This is not a black and white issue and the Bible is fairly silent on sexual conduct within marriage except that I would say it is obvious that the "sex lives" of a Christian couple should reflect our desire to serve and bring honour to God our Creator. If a Christian couple feel that anal sex, BDSM, toys etc display that attitude, that is a judgment call for them - I just have second thoughts...that's all!

I'd say it's pretty black and white. There is absolutely no moral reason to think anal is wrong. It's all based on vague feelings of it being dirty, and perhaps an anti-pleasure sentiment... but only ever when it comes to sex. It doesn't doesn't violate others, so there's no reason to think God would be against it.

It's good that you are open to people making their own judgements on this issue though. I hope I don't offend you in anything I said, because I don't mean it that way.

 

[Danny777]

Also, why would self-gratification be wrong? I don't hear Christians complain about the millions of other things humans (likely including themselves) do for self-gratification. It's always sex.

Could you give me a couple of examples of the "other things" you had in mind?

But there are likely emotional reasons that you think God wouldn't have intended anal. You think of God as pure and sexless, whereas anal is kinda dirty. The dirtiness clashes with the purity. This isn't a moral argument though, it's merely our vague unsupported feelings. eg: If we think food X is disgusting, that doesn't mean the food is immoral.

There aren't any moral arguments for why anal is wrong. It's all based on vague feelings that God wouldn't have approved. It's just the Christian (though not all Christians) obsession over what people do with their sexual desire.

I'd say it's pretty black and white. There is absolutely no moral reason to think anal is wrong. It's all based on vague feelings of it being dirty, and perhaps an anti-pleasure sentiment... but only ever when it comes to sex. It doesn't doesn't violate others, so there's no reason to think God would be against it.

It's good that you are open to people making their own judgements on this issue though. I hope I don't offend you in anything I said, because I don't mean it that way.

This will almost certainly stem from the difference in our own religious/philosophical viewpoints. Your profile shows you are a "humanist". There is no way I will be able to persuade differently because like I stress, this is judgment call and down to personal conscience. From a humanistic point of view I cannot see a reason why you would see anal as wrong. Remember, I am NOT saying it definitely is wrong either - I'm just not sure!

Let me explain my viewpoint on this another way, but it's very hard to explain this well. There are a couple of major passages in the NT describes the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church as being modeled on the relationship before husband and wife. This is obviously figurative. The Bible also refers to the "natural" vs the "unnatural" use of sexual relationship in Romans 1.
Sex is not dirty or unclean but it is clear that sex can be as God intended but it can also be used in a way that is not how God intended it. Whether anal, BDSM, toys etc would be included in the "unnatural" bracket, I cannot say for sure. My instincts cause me to ask why would God want a man to use every orifice of the womens body for stimulation when there is a perfectly natural one that is clearly designed for that purpose!

For me, marriage and sexual activity is a sacred area that is also clean, pure, enjoyable and God pleasing. But, marriage and sexual activity can also be abused and become unnatural. I don't know what the borderlines are and they will vary from one Christian couple to another - our own convictions and consciences should a big part in this.

However, I do think that God cares about how we use our bodies and particularly within the context of marriage sexuality. I admit and recognise that this will make no sense to you at all given that you will not share my Biblical convictions of human relationships and that what I'm trying to describe will just sound strange! My view ONLY comes from my believe in God and that He create human relationship and that our human relationships should symbolically reflect the relationship between Christ and His Church. I am not trying to suggest that a couple who practice anal/BDSM/toys etc are definitely sinning against God and this would be irrelevant for someone who doesn't believe in God anyway. I just feel this is territory where it human sexuality becomes something that MAY not be honouring to God's purpose of human relationships.

 

[Armoured]

I think this is just another example of people looking for things to needlessly obsess over, and if possible, condemn one another for. Religiously recognised marriage makes sense on sociological and theological grounds. But the idea that the church has any role in dictating the ways a loving married couple expresses their love I thought died out in the middle ages. Do you really think God is that micromanaging that he cares what consenting adults do in the marital bed? Why on earth would God care?

 

[Gadarene]

I think this is just another example of people looking for things to needlessly obsess over, and if possible, condemn one another for. Religiously recognised marriage makes sense on sociological and theological grounds. But the idea that the church has any role in dictating the ways a loving married couple expresses their love I thought died out in the middle ages. Do you really think God is that micromanaging that he cares what consenting adults do in the marital bed? Why on earth would God care?

I suspect if there is a god after all, he mightn't. It seems that his followers are more interested in what people do.

The level of prurience with these sorts of issues is interesting.

 

[Armoured]

I suspect if there is a god after all, he mightn't. It seems that his followers are more interested in what people do.

The level of prurience with these sorts of issues is interesting.

Quite so. Its almost as though some people go out of their way to justify classifying things as sin. Honestly, aren't there enough legitimately sinful temptations to avoid, without arbitrarily adding more to the list?

 

[Danny777]

I suspect if there is a god after all, he mightn't. It seems that his followers are more interested in what people do.

The level of prurience with these sorts of issues is interesting.

Quite so. Its almost as though some people go out of their way to justify classifying things as sin. Honestly, aren't there enough legitimately sinful temptations to avoid, without arbitrarily adding more to the list?

Who is going out of their way to classify extra things as sin?! If these comments are in response to my posts (I can't see any other comments they'd be in response to...) I've gone out of my way to stress that this is a personal decision for each Christian couple that would NOT apply to everyone else and that it is an individual judgment call...haven't I made this clear enough?!

PS. I'm afraid I don't know what "prurience" is? Sorry for being a bit stupid...

 

[keith99]

I'm not sure I'd want to have regular sex in the prescence of God...people watching in general freaks me out.

How many people would be comfortable with other bodily functions? Should we be ashamed of what we do in the bathroom?

 

[keith99]

People might want to look up the verse where Jesus made all things clean to eat.

Why can't that be applied to sex acts?

Or does Biblical literalism only work for making thing forbidden?

 

[Paradoxum]

Could you give me a couple of examples of the "other things" you had in mind?

Eating, drinking, sport, walking, talking, dancing, singing, reading, learning, games, TV, driving, sky-diving, sleeping, resting, etc.

There may be extra reasons sometimes, but I can quite imagine that all of these are done merely for happiness and good feelings fairly often.

This will almost certainly stem from the difference in our own religious/philosophical viewpoints. Your profile shows you are a "humanist". There is no way I will be able to persuade differently because like I stress, this is judgment call and down to personal conscience. From a humanistic point of view I cannot see a reason why you would see anal as wrong. Remember, I am NOT saying it definitely is wrong either - I'm just not sure!

And I'm glad you don't take a strong opinion on it. It just still makes me uncomfortable that people would be potentially condemning actions that don't do any harm. Even from a Christian perspective, it would be reasonable to ask why God would possibly have a problem with what people do with their sex lives, if it does no harm.

I may be a humanist now, but I was a committed Christian for longer. Using Christian terminology, I'd wonder if (potential) condemnation of kinky sex is legalistic, and merely based on human created rules. Does it chain us to human rules, when Christ came to set us free? It doesn't matter what you put in your mouth, but what comes out, because insults hurt people. Perhaps, in the same way, it doesn't matter what goes in and out you, or how, in a sexual sense. What matters is if you use your body to harm and violate others, contrary to loving your neighbour.

Let me explain my viewpoint on this another way, but it's very hard to explain this well. There are a couple of major passages in the NT describes the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Church as being modeled on the relationship before husband and wife. This is obviously figurative. The Bible also refers to the "natural" vs the "unnatural" use of sexual relationship in Romans 1.

Sure, but I don't think that would conflict with being a little sexually adventurous.

Analogies are limit. Obviously Jesus doesn't have sexual relations with the church. The point is more about the union and love between husband and wife. I'm not sure you can draw rules about sex from an analogy that definitely isn't about sex.

As for 'natural' and 'unnatural'... they are very problematic moral concepts. Perhaps they made sense at one time, but now we have better ways of expressing moral ideas. Anal is clearly as natural as normal sex... every part involved is biological. Toys might be unnatural, as in human made, but cars are human made too and we use them.

Sex is not dirty or unclean but it is clear that sex can be as God intended but it can also be used in a way that is not how God intended it. Whether anal, BDSM, toys etc would be included in the "unnatural" bracket, I cannot say for sure. My instincts cause me to ask why would God want a man to use every orifice of the womens body for stimulation when there is a perfectly natural one that is clearly designed for that purpose!

Why would God have to want or not want that to happen. For God to want anal happening is just as weird as him being against it. Why wouldn't God simply be indifferent about how exactly we have sex. If God doesn't care if we have pepperoni or ham pizza, why would he care which 'orifice' is 'used'.

Isn't the reason that some people think God cares so much about sex, because they actually care so much about sex? I'm not sure why a sexless Father of existence would be caring exactly how we do it.

On the other hand, consider that anal can feel good for both sexes (with the guy on the receiving end too). So perhaps God did give us a hint that it was ok. If he was against it, why would he make it feel good?

For me, marriage and sexual activity is a sacred area that is also clean, pure, enjoyable and God pleasing. But, marriage and sexual activity can also be abused and become unnatural. I don't know what the borderlines are and they will vary from one Christian couple to another - our own convictions and consciences should a big part in this.

Sure. I wouldn't use those words, but we can agree to disagree there.

However, I do think that God cares about how we use our bodies and particularly within the context of marriage sexuality. I admit and recognise that this will make no sense to you at all given that you will not share my Biblical convictions of human relationships and that what I'm trying to describe will just sound strange! My view ONLY comes from my believe in God and that He create human relationship and that our human relationships should symbolically reflect the relationship between Christ and His Church. I am not trying to suggest that a couple who practice anal/BDSM/toys etc are definitely sinning against God and this would be irrelevant for someone who doesn't believe in God anyway. I just feel this is territory where it human sexuality becomes something that MAY not be honouring to God's purpose of human relationships.

In my opinion, it makes more sense to think that marriage reflects Christ and the church, rather than sexual relations. The point is the union, love, and commitment. Sex doesn't really come into the analogy... which we have to remember is an analogy and can only be applied in a limited way.

I have no problem with whatever choice you make, I just wonder about how such attitude affect others, especially children. Would such skepticism to non-harmful sexuality cause children to grow up to feel ashamed and guilty about their feelings? I don't consider that healthy.

Again, I mean everything I've said in the nicest way possible.

I think this is just another example of people looking for things to needlessly obsess over, and if possible, condemn one another for. Religiously recognised marriage makes sense on sociological and theological grounds. But the idea that the church has any role in dictating the ways a loving married couple expresses their love I thought died out in the middle ages. Do you really think God is that micromanaging that he cares what consenting adults do in the marital bed? Why on earth would God care?

You get obsessions from both ends. Those you sexualize too much, and those suppress sexuality. The moderate middle ground would be not forcing it on people, or trying guilt trip others.

 

[Danny777]

Eating, drinking, sport, walking, talking, dancing, singing, reading, learning, games, TV, driving, sky-diving, sleeping, resting, etc.

There may be extra reasons sometimes, but I can quite imagine that all of these are done merely for happiness and good feelings fairly often.

I still think there is something a bit different between the sexual union between man and woman and all these things you've listed above. In Genesis we are told that man and woman become "one flesh" and it seems that sex is the ultimate consummation of this unity - for me, this elevates the union of man and woman above other hobbies/pastimes. I think the sexual unity between man and woman should have a kind of "sanctity", but this is the wrong word and I can't think of a way of putting it better...!

And I'm glad you don't take a strong opinion on it. It just still makes me uncomfortable that people would be potentially condemning actions that don't do any harm. Even from a Christian perspective, it would be reasonable to ask why God would possibly have a problem with what people do with their sex lives, if it does no harm.

I may be a humanist now, but I was a committed Christian for longer. Using Christian terminology, I'd wonder if (potential) condemnation of kinky sex is legalistic, and merely based on human created rules. Does it chain us to human rules, when Christ came to set us free? It doesn't matter what you put in your mouth, but what comes out, because insults hurt people. Perhaps, in the same way, it doesn't matter what goes in and out you, or how, in a sexual sense. What matters is if you use your body to harm and violate others, contrary to loving your neighbour.

For sure, if I was to condemn it and say it is wrong for everyone, this would be legalistic and wrong. It is just a personal feeling on this matter and I would not have any problem with Christian's (or non-Christians) who saw things differently.

As for 'natural' and 'unnatural'... they are very problematic moral concepts. Perhaps they made sense at one time, but now we have better ways of expressing moral ideas. Anal is clearly as natural as normal sex... every part involved is biological. Toys might be unnatural, as in human made, but cars are human made too and we use them.

We will have to disagree on this. I don't think anything is in the Bible by accident - I'm not completely sure how this applies for today and I suppose it is a judgment call for each Christian couple. Wouldn't condemn anyone else for drawing the line differently to me...!

In my opinion, it makes more sense to think that marriage reflects Christ and the church, rather than sexual relations. The point is the union, love, and commitment. Sex doesn't really come into the analogy... which we have to remember is an analogy and can only be applied in a limited way.

I have no problem with whatever choice you make, I just wonder about how such attitude affect others, especially children. Would such skepticism to non-harmful sexuality cause children to grow up to feel ashamed and guilty about their feelings? I don't consider that healthy.

Again, I mean everything I've said in the nicest way possible.

Depends how it's communicated (if at all). I believe that when you become a Christian the Holy Spirit guides individuals/couples on issues like this that are fairly absent in the Bible. There is no way I would impose feelings of guilt or shame just in the same way I hope I have communicated that tone in our discussion. I have NO problem with other who see this differently and I can't really argue with most of what you say. I see sexual activity as the most special bond between man and woman and I think this is a design of God - like all good things, they can be used in a way not intended by the maker. How this is applied from one couple to the next will vary greatly!

 

[Paradoxum]

I still think there is something a bit different between the sexual union between man and woman and all these things you've listed above. In Genesis we are told that man and woman become "one flesh" and it seems that sex is the ultimate consummation of this unity - for me, this elevates the union of man and woman above other hobbies/pastimes. I think the sexual unity between man and woman should have a kind of "sanctity", but this is the wrong word and I can't think of a way of putting it better...!

Even without the religious elements, I could agree that sex can be a symbol of unity, and that closeness you share makes it more important than most other acts. But I don't see how you move from that to saying something is sacred, or why it makes an act done for pleasure wrong.

I suppose I'd focus more on the relationship, and say that what is important is the love, the intimacy, the commitment and sharing. So for me, the important thing about marriage would be the relationship, not the sex. If the sex symbolises that relationship, that is secondary. If it more focused on fun, that's ok too, because the meaning is in the relationship, not the sex.

Also, I'd say having fun together is an equally important part of being together. I don't see why enjoying each other in a 'kinky' way can't be a form of close bonding too.

For sure, if I was to condemn it and say it is wrong for everyone, this would be legalistic and wrong. It is just a personal feeling on this matter and I would not have any problem with Christian's (or non-Christians) who saw things differently.

I'd say you can be legalistic towards yourself (eg: carrying on with circumcision, even though 'Christ has come to set you free').

If you thinking that sex is sacred makes you happy... I'm not saying you should change how you act. It's just such talk of sacredness concerns me, personally. It seems to force everything to be deep, when light-heartedness is important too. I mean, saying 'I love you' is important, but so is laughing and doing things you both have fun doing. I think sex can be both symbolic of the unity, and also simply about having fun. Both are healthy expressions of sexuality with a partner.

I suppose we understand each other, we just disagree.

We will have to disagree on this. I don't think anything is in the Bible by accident - I'm not completely sure how this applies for today and I suppose it is a judgment call for each Christian couple. Wouldn't condemn anyone else for drawing the line differently to me...!

But the Bible was written 2000 years ago. I don't think it's crazy to think that things that made sense then might not make as much sense now.

Depends how it's communicated (if at all). I believe that when you become a Christian the Holy Spirit guides individuals/couples on issues like this that are fairly absent in the Bible. There is no way I would impose feelings of guilt or shame just in the same way I hope I have communicated that tone in our discussion. I have NO problem with other who see this differently and I can't really argue with most of what you say. I see sexual activity as the most special bond between man and woman and I think this is a design of God - like all good things, they can be used in a way not intended by the maker. How this is applied from one couple to the next will vary greatly!

Well, we can agree to disagree on some things.

 

[Tony Conrad]

What a brilliant post and what a sensitive way to discuss kink bringing in the importance of relationship above the sex. I agree wholeheartedly. Not being considerate of the other does make it just sex and even lust. One can enjoy kink within the relationship of a marriage.

 

[chaoticfirefly]

I was discussing with a few friends the concepts of sex in a christian marriage when the concept of kink came up and whether or not it was acceptable. NOw we are talking BDSM, dom/sub, toys, etc.

What do the rest of you think about this?

As long as both are consenting, why not? As long as you are respectful of your partner and others around you, why not?

And you do your research because BDSM is treading a very thin line between consent and abuse, and it can easily cross that line if boundaries and safe words and everything else aren't established. If the safe word is ignored, it stops being consensual. If hard limits are crossed, it's no longer consensual unless discussed before and after.

If someone wishes to enter into the BDSM lifestyle, discuss it with your partner, do your research thoroughly and decide whether or not you really want to. After all, there's a difference between the lifestyle and bedroom play. Being a Dominate of someone is a huge responsibility depending on the terms of agreement and how you want to go about it, and with both, there's huge stigma around it.

And do not get any of your information from 50 Shades of Grey. There are websites, blogs, and other things you can use as a resource. Even gatherings too!

And it needs to be remembered: Your Kink Is Not My Kink And That Is Okay. As well as Safe, Sane and Consensual.

I myself do not like it for very personal reasons, but to each their own. If you wish to engage in something like that, by all means, go for it! I encourage it, because sexual exploration is a good thing! No need to fall into stigma and shame.

Just remember the C word: CONSENT. If your partner says NO, that is not consent. Do not manipulate, do not keep asking. Just like with vanilla sex, you drop it. If they say YES, GO FOR IT. Discuss! Communication plays a biiiiig part.

So yes, it's fine if you engage in that activity. Just be careful, communicate with your partner and be respectful of each other and your surroundings.